Post Game Thoughts

And the only thing you do on here is rip people who support the coach. Try bringing something to the table for once.

Pointing out the obvious is not ripping. Nor is pointing out your penchant to want things both ways. Your protection of PJ is admirable however flawed.

I support the program. PJ is the coach until he isnt the coach.

Just win weather. Just win.
 

Exactly. What does Burner propose as a solution? Claeys isn't coming back.

Solution? Mark Coyle is in charge of the solution, Right? He and PJ?

One SUGGESTION is to stop with the "bowl games dont matter" and "year zero" and "we are young and will be younger next year".
 

You are correct in your first sentence.
I am going to disagree with you on the learning process aspect though. This was not game 1. Their learning process should have taken place in the non-conference. By this point in the season they should know what our players can and can't do and should be adjusting the game plans weekly to take advantage of the D with what we can do well.
I have not seen that happening outside of the Illinois game. That is not acceptable. It appears we go into a game with a few plays that we are going to run and we run those few plays over and over again whether we have success or not. When successful, I can see why you keep running them, kind of like Michigan did last night. But when you are not, that is where coaching comes in and we are not good at making in game offensive adjustments. Go back and watch any game from this season and the trend of continuing to run the same few plays over and over again has been there. That to me is a bad sign for future years. They haven't learned anything about how to call a game and make adjustments and after 9 games, that is unacceptable at any level of coaching.

Not saying you are wrong but I think this limited game plan is a direct reflection on the personnel. When you have a very mediocre QB, an O-Line that is ok but breaks down quite a bit and maybe 1 playmaker at WR, it is going to be tough to put a dynamic game plan in place. If the coaches felt the players could handle it, I have zero doubt they would be more creative with the play calling.

I will say I was not a fan of the way they chose to run the wildcat. If you are going to do it then get Croft on the outside and just put Smith under center. Michigan wasn't fooled and as soon as Croft/Smith shifted they just collapsed on the line. That play design might work against less skilled teams but against a front like Michigan's it was just too obvious.
 

Pointing out the obvious is not ripping. Nor is pointing out your penchant to want things both ways. Your protection of PJ is admirable however flawed.

I support the program. PJ is the coach until he isnt the coach.

Just win weather. Just win.

I don't want things both ways nor have I ever said that. They weren't winning with this roster no matter what you want to pretend in your fantasy world. And with the terrible recruiting class Claeys had assembled before he was fired, next year would have been even worse.

Now we have a chance to win more next year and beyond, you should be happy.
 

Did Fleck say bowl games do not matter again? I do take exception to that as I think it would benefit this team greatly to get in the extra practices and reward the players with a bowl game. The offensive playbook has been simplified to a great deal in my view to try to make it more simple for Croft and Rhoda to be successful. If Croft or Armstrong are going to be better next year, these 15 extra practices and an additional game would be very useful.
 


Did Fleck say bowl games do not matter again? I do take exception to that as I think it would benefit this team greatly to get in the extra practices and reward the players with a bowl game. The offensive playbook has been simplified to a great deal in my view to try to make it more simple for Croft and Rhoda to be successful. If Croft or Armstrong are going to be better next year, these 15 extra practices and an additional game would be very useful.

How long have we been hearing that 15 extra practices and a game quote? Nothing has ever planned out.
 

How long have we been hearing that 15 extra practices and a game quote? Nothing has ever planned out.

I don't know about that. Yes, the previous staff failed to reach elite levels and win the B1G West, but they did make it to 5 consecutive bowl games and have a couple seasons with 8/9 wins.
 

I don't want things both ways nor have I ever said that. They weren't winning with this roster no matter what you want to pretend in your fantasy world. And with the terrible recruiting class Claeys had assembled before he was fired, next year would have been even worse.

Now we have a chance to win more next year and beyond, you should be happy.

Yes you do want it both ways and your posts are clear in that regard. This roster is capable of far more than you are willing to admit. You just wont. The coaching staff fell on its face a few times this season. Another admission you are not willing to make.

Frankly, the losing this year will allow you to play the depleted roster and the other litany of excuses moving forward. You seem to like the losing this year and you seem to agree that bowl games do not matter etc etc. Plays right into the culture change.

I should be happy next year? Didnt pj say 2020?

Bowl games do not matter. Year zero.
 

Did Fleck say bowl games do not matter again? I do take exception to that as I think it would benefit this team greatly to get in the extra practices and reward the players with a bowl game. The offensive playbook has been simplified to a great deal in my view to try to make it more simple for Croft and Rhoda to be successful. If Croft or Armstrong are going to be better next year, these 15 extra practices and an additional game would be very useful.

He did, but he also said this in an Oct. 30 PPress article...

While Fleck plans for the future, he’s focused on the present and winning two of the remaining four games to go to a bowl game.

“These seniors deserve to win,” Fleck said. “These seniors deserve to continue to be able to get everything out of everybody on this football team. That is my challenge, to bring everybody up to that level. … You are fighting for bowl eligibility, you are fighting for the seniors to end on the high notes, you are fighting with rivalry games. There is a lot to play for.”


http://www.twincities.com/2017/10/3...ege-football-playoff-fleck-says-give-it-time/
 



Did Fleck say bowl games do not matter again? I do take exception to that as I think it would benefit this team greatly to get in the extra practices and reward the players with a bowl game. The offensive playbook has been simplified to a great deal in my view to try to make it more simple for Croft and Rhoda to be successful. If Croft or Armstrong are going to be better next year, these 15 extra practices and an additional game would be very useful.

If you're referring to what he said on WCCO Sunday from what I read that is not exactly how he put it.
 



I am surprised at the venom about this loss from some of the posters on this board who have been around a long time. This program has been a NON-FACTOR for my entire life and expecting that to change in year one under PJ Fleck is unfair. Michigan is currently 4-2 in conference play and I think we'd all agree that they are a good bet to finish the season with a winning conference record? Right? Right. Starting with the year 2000, the Gophers have exactly SEVEN wins over teams that finished the season above .500 in conference play.

Mason (3): Ohio State, Northwestern, Michigan
Brewster (1): Northwestern
Kill (2): Nebraska, Nebraska
Claeys(1): Northwestern

None of those teams finished better than 5-3 in conference play, none of those teams finished in the top 3 in the conference. It is truly amazing how consistent Gopher football is: If a team is really good, Minnesota ALWAYS loses, If a team is slightly above average in conference play, Minnesota almost ALWAYS loses.

I gave the Gophers no chance in this game, but I gave Iowa no chance against Ohio State and look what happened there. I guess my biggest criticism of the staff in this game is that knowing we were out-manned, they should have been more aggressive in certain spots. Example: 3rd and 2 at Michigan 47 to start the game...Give your OC 2 plays to make a first down instead of punting on 4th down. Another Example: Down 20-7 in the 2nd Quarter and facing 3rd and 18 you run the ball with Phillip Howard...Take a shot down the field and hope for a catch or a PI. If you were going to win the game, you were going to have to take some low % plays and make them work. Instead, I felt like the staff coached to try to keep the game respectable and not lose by 50.

Two other things Offensively I didn't like:

1. The continued use of the Wildcat with Rodney Smith: This didn't work, they weren't fooled...run almost anything else
2. The overuse of Rodney Smith on jet action: I believe it was in the 3rd Q where we had a series where Rodney ran jet action at full speed on like 3 straight plays. On one of those plays, he actually ran full speed from one slot to the other...then Demry motioned him back the other way full speed. I don't understand gassing the guy out like that as I believe he was actually handed the ball on 1 or 2 of those plays as well.

Someone else really nailed their post on the Gophers deficiencies talent wise:

The biggest issue overall on offense (and has been the biggest issue overall for over a decade) is that the line is not physical enough to move anyone which would allow sustained success between the tackles. We've tried to be a heavy run team for years now, and still haven't figured out a way to run the ball between the tackles against conference opposition. The RB's are solid, but they aren't special. When you point to your solid RB's as the best part of your offense, you are in trouble. The WR corp still has no one to threaten a defense vertically and make plays outside the hashes and it's certainly up to debate if we have had a QB who could actually complete a vertical pass. If you can't threaten a defense vertically, how do you soften the box to allow for a weaker Oline to hopefully generate some push? You can't...one of these issues has to be fixed.

The biggest issue overall on defense is that we are neither stout enough against the run or explosive enough against the pass in our front 4. Again this has been an issue more often than not for Minnesota. We can't get a consistent pass rush by rushing just four, which suggests that we have big, physical guys playing DL that should be a force against the run...but that's not the case. We usually have a relatively undersized front 4 that is simply not very good. The secondary is banged up and much like the WR position lacks long speed. The Michigan backs ran away from our DB's, Shannon Brooks gets caught from behind by Purdue DB's, Tyler Johnson by Iowa DB's, and Eric Carter couldn't out run a Purdue LB. Have to find a way to add speed on both sides of the ball.

Great post. Thank you. +1 to all.
 



He is stiff in the hips guy. They will pick on him if he plays every down. Let them play him on every down like people here are calling for, he will get targeted for screens and the same counters they attacked Celestin with. My observatipn when I have seen him play.

I don't see Celestin or Barber as having elite lateral quickness either. Look at Chad Greenway - instincts can take you a long way even if you are not the fastest player out there.
 

I haven't seen the game on TV or read any other thread on here but this one tonight - but these are my overwhelming thoughts from row 26 at the B1G House...
1. We were so beat at the line of scrimmage tonight (both OL and DL) I can't think of a word grand enough to describe it.
2. Cashman played well. Santoso was awesome.
3. Our WRs get zero separation. OMG. Zero.
4. DC11 isn't good, but I put little on him tonight. See 1 & 3 tonight.
5. MI fans - restaurants, tailgating, at the game, were awesome.
6. MN isn't the only place that exaggerates attendance numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nice summary, I agree. Well I didn't get to Ann Arbor early enough to tailgate, but otherwise, I agree.
 


I actually hope Cashman get's the chance to prove me wrong.

I don't see Celestin or Barber as having elite lateral quickness either. Look at Chad Greenway - instincts can take you a long way even if you are not the fastest player out there.

Barber and Celestine (They are both faster than what you see on TV) get to the sideline quickly and in tight spots stack well, they do not have great backside shuffle, or recovery speed to adjust to the cutback.
Greenway got burned by a lot of backs and tight ends in the NFL at times too, but he still made a lot of plays, and positive plays at that. I hope Cashman proves me wrong and can be one of those every down players. Celestine not having one arm to play with has obviously deteriorated his play.

Size wise he Cashman has always seemed like a tweener on the edge type of guy, Strong Safety size, but almost a linebacker size(Good to almost above average straight line speed) that could be a good plug up the gap hitter and stop the run, but have difficulty chasing wide receivers and tight ends on crossing routes and quick hitches. I too would like him to get a shot, but my hunch based on observation is he would get burned on a few passing plays for big gainers. None of the linebackers are near the weights they list, all of those guys are light, the only one that I think is close to accurate weight wise is Barber. Celestine, Martin(he is skinny enough to be a strong safety), Cashman , look to be around Huff's size about 215-220 pounds. I still don't like #45 Coughlin or #21 Martin having to play defensive end or the Rover in a five man offset front, not an ideal situation at all for longer term success on defense. One is a Strong side backer the other a good will, they are linebackers with linebacker instincts that can tackle and read the QB and create turnovers, that is why I would rather see them in drops and in coverage, I think both have good instincts to create turnovers.

Cashman he can be a thumper if they let him support the run defense more.

They #45 and #21 would play better without letting the O-lineman get there hands on them easier, more zone drops into coverage. I know coach said they are both sacrificing for the team now this year, so hopefully they have something better planned for those two guys in the next 2 to 3 years.
 

Barber and Celestine (They are both faster than what you see on TV) get to the sideline quickly and in tight spots stack well, they do not have great backside shuffle, or recovery speed to adjust to the cutback.
Greenway got burned by a lot of backs and tight ends in the NFL at times too, but he still made a lot of plays, and positive plays at that. I hope Cashman proves me wrong and can be one of those every down players. Celestine not having one arm to play with has obviously deteriorated his play.

Size wise he Cashman has always seemed like a tweener on the edge type of guy, Strong Safety size, but almost a linebacker size(Good to almost above average straight line speed) that could be a good plug up the gap hitter and stop the run, but have difficulty chasing wide receivers and tight ends on crossing routes and quick hitches. I too would like him to get a shot, but my hunch based on observation is he would get burned on a few passing plays for big gainers. None of the linebackers are near the weights they list, all of those guys are light, the only one that I think is close to accurate weight wise is Barber. Celestine, Martin(he is skinny enough to be a strong safety), Cashman , look to be around Huff's size about 215-220 pounds. I still don't like #45 Coughlin or #21 Martin having to play defensive end or the Rover in a five man offset front, not an ideal situation at all for longer term success on defense. One is a Strong side backer the other a good will, they are linebackers with linebacker instincts that can tackle and read the QB and create turnovers, that is why I would rather see them in drops and in coverage, I think both have good instincts to create turnovers.

Cashman he can be a thumper if they let him support the run defense more.

They #45 and #21 would play better without letting the O-lineman get there hands on them easier, more zone drops into coverage. I know coach said they are both sacrificing for the team now this year, so hopefully they have something better planned for those two guys in the next 2 to 3 years.

As pointed out by several poster earlier, Cashman is the same size as those two. He's a gamer, and had great stats for a half of play. Always around the ball.
 




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