Post Game Thoughts

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MnplsGopher said:
OK, I do have two very specific gripes. Can someone please help me out, on these two??


1)

WHY is Duke McGhee still playing???


I understand that Winfield is hurt. I understand that we don't want to burn any more redshirts. Fine.

Duke is a Senior. That means he can't help the team after this year. And he sure as heck is not helping the team do anything this year. He is far more of a liability than anything else. All of the big touchdown runs by Michigan should have been tackled for a 20+ yard gain, but not a huge gain and a TD. Guess who missed those final tackles??

And on the one long TD pass, where the Michigan receiver simply side-stepped the first diving Gopher player ... guess who gave one of the most pathetic attempt to save the play that I've ever seen?? He went for a half hearted, sideways strip of the ball and haplessly fell off the Michigan receiver, rather than going for an actual tackle. Against a power I offense with a fullback they would get a hat on him and block him up. I think he can play and be effective just not every down.

BENCH him.

What about Jacob Huff?? What about Calvin Swenson?? What about ANYONE else -- IS there anyone else??



2)

Why is Blake Cashman not playing more???


Is the guy just a horrible practice player or what?? Is it alumni/donor politics??

I don't get it. He was one of the few players out there who consistently made plays on defense. And he was the D MVP of the bowl game last year, right? How is this guy not starting???
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Cashmen is a substitution player not fast enough to be an every down player at linebacker. He doesn't have the size to hold up to the pounding. He would get abused by the tight end or crossing routes and exposed if he had to play every down. He is good football player, he has good instincts and can make plays when put in the right situations. He is not a player that can elevate a defense and play every snap, just no way he could physically be that guy. I think you can play Cashman, but not on every down, or against a power front with no wideouts.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
He said they are going to keep rowin'!!! in the interview after the game.
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They better keep Rowin'. Because we aren't at a good spot here. So we need to get somewhere else...

This game went right along the lines I thought it would. Our defense has regressed a lot from the past few years (combination of scheme and players) and our offense still sucks. Flecks get several to correct both.
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
Cashmen is a substitution player not fast enough to be an every down player at linebacker. He doesn't have the size to hold up to the pounding. He would get abused by the tight end or crossing routes and exposed if he had to play every down. He is good football player, he has good instincts and can make plays when put in the right situations. He is not a player that can elevate a defense and play every snap, just no way he could physically be that guy. I think you can play Cashman, but not on every down, or against a power front with no wideouts.
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I for one, would like to find out if that's true, always seems to be around the ball. He's basically the same size as Celestin and Barber...
 

Spoofin said:
1. Jacob Huff starts.
2. Blake is a victim of our LB depth. He is behind Celestine on the depth chart. JC13 was awesome earlier this year, but the injury is catching up with him. Blake did indeed make the most of his opportunity yesterday.
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1. Not according to the depth chart. Are you talking about nickleback, or something like that?

Point is, Duke McGhee is the problem. He needs to be benched. I don't care if he practices better than Swenson or whoever else we feasibly have to throw back there -- he does not play well in games. Throw Cashman back there! Has to be better than McGhee.


2. I can buy that. Not trying to downgrade Celestin, at all. What about playing one of those two at safety? What about going to 4 linebackers in the base D? If a guy is making plays ....
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
Cashmen is a substitution player not fast enough to be an every down player at linebacker. He doesn't have the size to hold up to the pounding. He would get abused by the tight end or crossing routes and exposed if he had to play every down. He is good football player, he has good instincts and can make plays when put in the right situations. He is not a player that can elevate a defense and play every snap, just no way he could physically be that guy. I think you can play Cashman, but not on every down, or against a power front with no wideouts.
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Speed I can understand ... but how can you say that Cashman doesn't have the size to hold up at LB, when he's bigger than K-Mart and Celestin ??

He was the D MVP in the bowl game last year, and he was making plays last night. Shouldn't that trump everything else? If a guy is a war daddy on game night ... then damnit, get him in there!
 


MnplsGopher said:
1. Not according to the depth chart. Are you talking about nickleback, or something like that?

Point is, Duke McGhee is the problem. He needs to be benched. I don't care if he practices better than Swenson or whoever else we feasibly have to throw back there -- he does not play well in games. Throw Cashman back there! Has to be better than McGhee.
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Huff plays every snap
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
Cashmen is a substitution player not fast enough to be an every down player at linebacker. He doesn't have the size to hold up to the pounding. He would get abused by the tight end or crossing routes and exposed if he had to play every down. He is good football player, he has good instincts and can make plays when put in the right situations. He is not a player that can elevate a defense and play every snap, just no way he could physically be that guy. I think you can play Cashman, but not on every down, or against a power front with no wideouts.
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I don't know. He's faster than Barber, with better instincts. He weighs 2 pounds less. Barber looks thicker because he's got baby fat.

He's also bigger than Celestin.
 


Pompous Elitist said:
I don't know. He's faster than Barber, with better instincts. He weighs 2 pounds less. Barber looks thicker because he's got baby fat.

He's also bigger than Celestin.
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Cashman is actually bigger than Barber, too. He's bigger than all the starting linebackers.

If he was too slow, that would make sense. But obviously he has "enough" speed .... he makes plays.
 



Agreed. Playmakers should play. Winfield wasn't ideal size but he could play.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I don't know. He's faster than Barber, with better instincts. He weighs 2 pounds less. Barber looks thicker because he's got baby fat.

He's also bigger than Celestin.
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Yep. Played what, a little more than half the game at LB and had 6 tackles and a sack? Works for me. Play him.
 

As long as we're spelling out our thoughts in list form....

- Maybe Blake Cashman doesn't have the speed, but how many LB's have made a living on instincts and ability to get to the ball. I know JC13 is a nice story and all, but the injuries have clearly caught up to him. If anything, shut him down until the Wisconsin game. From what I've seen, Cashman is the only LB that doesn't seem to get caught in the wash.

- Speaking of LB's....what the heck happened to Cody Poock?

- Next year's starting QB is not on this roster. (Personally, I'm hoping for Viramontes) Croft does have some promise, but there's not much he can do if nobody gets open. However, when you have a 6'10 TE, shouldn't you be able to put a ball where only he can catch it?

- That being said. I would not hate it if Green got some game reps.

- It was nice to see the playbook open a little, but that wildcat play is dumb as hell. Does it not seem like the OC adds a couple new plays to the gameplan, and then proceeds to run them over and over and over and over?

- Why do we not implement more of a short passing game - Slants, sluggos, crossing routes... It feels like we're always trying to go deep. Why not just do what you can to get the ball in the hands of Howard, Johnson, Wozniak and Mark Williams and let them try to make plays. Then couple that with the three headed monster at RB (if they're all healthy).

- Fleck is NOT Tim Brewster 2.0. He's Jim Wacker 2.0. However, he won one game in his first year. This team lost a lot of key players to graduation, transfer and expulsion. Couple that with being decimated by injuries, and to key players at that (e.g. Winfield) and it's a miracle we've managed to win 4 games. Let's not also forget that many of his freshman this year were players that were set to go to Western Michigan before they flipped. Let's see what he brings in for next year, coupled with this year's freshman with a year under their belt. Sometimes teams take a step back, look at Michigan State last year. If we're sitting in this same position next year, then maybe start hovering around the panic button.

- Have to say it one more time.... They need to get Vic Viramontes.
 

Sparlimb said:
They better keep Rowin'. Because we aren't at a good spot here. So we need to get somewhere else...

This game went right along the lines I thought it would. Our defense has regressed a lot from the past few years (combination of scheme and players) and our offense still sucks. Flecks get several to correct both.
Click to expand...

Season is not over and there's the usual caveat about stats, however:

The Gophers are now giving up an average of 329 yards per game. Do you realize you have to go back to 1999 to find a defense that gave up less average yards than that? The previous six year under the glory "Steel Curtain" days of the Kill, Claeys, Sawvil defenses gave up these averages:

2011-403
2012-358
2013-373
2014-368
2015-345
2016-348

This isn't to claim that the Gophers are actually a good defense this year. It's to show that if you think this year's defense has regressed, you might want to rethink that. We've generally had a defense that has sucked over the years and overreacting to a specific game can distort your view of where the program is in relation to previous years.

That was really tough to watch for that time in the second half on both offense and defense. Our lines were totally dominated and it looked like a couple backs might get killed. On defense, it looked like we couldn't make a tackle. Glass half full--they regrouped and made plays in the fourth quarter. When they give up and mail it in is when I'm going to think PJ can't do it.
 



sirloin1078 said:
As long as we're spelling out our thoughts in list form....

- Maybe Blake Cashman doesn't have the speed, but how many LB's have made a living on instincts and ability to get to the ball. I know JC13 is a nice story and all, but the injuries have clearly caught up to him. If anything, shut him down until the Wisconsin game. From what I've seen, Cashman is the only LB that doesn't seem to get caught in the wash.

- Speaking of LB's....what the heck happened to Cody Poock?

- Next year's starting QB is not on this roster. (Personally, I'm hoping for Viramontes) Croft does have some promise, but there's not much he can do if nobody gets open. However, when you have a 6'10 TE, shouldn't you be able to put a ball where only he can catch it?

- That being said. I would not hate it if Green got some game reps.

- It was nice to see the playbook open a little, but that wildcat play is dumb as hell. Does it not seem like the OC adds a couple new plays to the gameplan, and then proceeds to run them over and over and over and over?

- Why do we not implement more of a short passing game - Slants, sluggos, crossing routes... It feels like we're always trying to go deep. Why not just do what you can to get the ball in the hands of Howard, Johnson, Wozniak and Mark Williams and let them try to make plays. Then couple that with the three headed monster at RB (if they're all healthy).

- Fleck is NOT Tim Brewster 2.0. He's Jim Wacker 2.0. However, he won one game in his first year. This team lost a lot of key players to graduation, transfer and expulsion. Couple that with being decimated by injuries, and to key players at that (e.g. Winfield) and it's a miracle we've managed to win 4 games. Let's not also forget that many of his freshman this year were players that were set to go to Western Michigan before they flipped. Let's see what he brings in for next year, coupled with this year's freshman with a year under their belt. Sometimes teams take a step back, look at Michigan State last year. If we're sitting in this same position next year, then maybe start hovering around the panic button.

- Have to say it one more time.... They need to get Vic Viramontes.
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Just want to say, he appears to be more of a running QB than a passing QB. His rushing attempts are greater than his passing attempts so far his season, albeit slightly, but it is late in the year. (Edit: Think I am incorrect. Thinking he has 2 more pass attempts than rush attempts on the year. Either way, very close.)
 

Mulligan said:
Season is not over and there's the usual caveat about stats, however:

The Gophers are now giving up an average of 329 yards per game. Do you realize you have to go back to 1999 to find a defense that gave up less average yards than that? The previous six year under the glory "Steel Curtain" days of the Kill, Claeys, Sawvil defenses gave up these averages:

2011-403
2012-358
2013-373
2014-368
2015-345
2016-348

This isn't to claim that the Gophers are actually a good defense this year. It's to show that if you think this year's defense has regressed, you might want to rethink that. We've generally had a defense that has sucked over the years and overreacting to a specific game can distort your view of where the program is in relation to previous years.

That was really tough to watch for that time in the second half on both offense and defense. Our lines were totally dominated and it looked like a couple backs might get killed. On defense, it looked like we couldn't make a tackle. Glass half full--they regrouped and made plays in the fourth quarter. When they give up and mail it in is when I'm going to think PJ can't do it.
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Competition has to be considered. So far we are 82nd in rushing S&P+ this year, 31st overall. We were 19th in rushing D last year, 23rd overall. In 2015 we were 81st in rushing, 17th overall. In 2014 37th vs run, 36th overall. Based on S&P+ we seem most similar to 2013 at this point.

Seems like this year the defense has played well for long stretches, but has been prone to giving up explosive plays. Usually from certain players being out of their gap or getting badly fooled by misdirection. Last night add poor tackling effort to the mix and we have 371 yards given up on the ground.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Competition has to be considered. So far we are 82nd in rushing S&P+ this year, 31st overall. We were 19th in rushing D last year, 23rd overall. In 2015 we were 81st in rushing, 17th overall. In 2014 37th vs run, 36th overall. Based on S&P+ we seem most similar to 2013 at this point.

Seems like this year the defense has played well for long stretches, but has been prone to giving up explosive plays. Usually from certain players being out of their gap or getting badly fooled by misdirection. Last night add poor tackling effort to the mix and we have 371 yards given up on the ground.
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How is this defense most similar to 2013 when that defense was ranked 65th overall and this one is 31st? This defense is far more comparable to the last three years than it is to 2013.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
How is this defense most similar to 2013 when that defense was ranked 65th overall and this one is 31st? This defense is far more comparable to the last three years than it is to 2013.
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I don't totally disagree, I was strictly glancing at rushing S&P+ and there is no directly comparable year. The overall ranking has been slipping week by week though and if the trend continues feasible to think overall rank will be closer to 2013 than 2015. We aren't playing any offensive juggernauts (although Michigan wasn't either...) so hard to really say where the final ranking will be and perhaps we'll stabilize.
 

MnplsGopher said:
OK, I do have two very specific gripes. Can someone please help me out, on these two??


1)

WHY is Duke McGhee still playing???


I understand that Winfield is hurt. I understand that we don't want to burn any more redshirts. Fine.

Duke is a Senior. That means he can't help the team after this year. And he sure as heck is not helping the team do anything this year. He is far more of a liability than anything else. All of the big touchdown runs by Michigan should have been tackled for a 20+ yard gain, but not a huge gain and a TD. Guess who missed those final tackles??

And on the one long TD pass, where the Michigan receiver simply side-stepped the first diving Gopher player ... guess who gave one of the most pathetic attempt to save the play that I've ever seen?? He went for a half hearted, sideways strip of the ball and haplessly fell off the Michigan receiver, rather than going for an actual tackle


I think I can solve both of these problems with one stone! Put Cashman as starting LB, and Celestin as Strong Safety. Who cares, now?? It has to be better than McGhee!
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I would have to disagree. McGhee did not have a good game last night, but in my opinion he is one of the top three players on this defense along with Richardson and Celestin.
He has a chance to play at the next level.
 


Pompous Elitist said:
Competition has to be considered. So far we are 82nd in rushing S&P+ this year, 31st overall. We were 19th in rushing D last year, 23rd overall. In 2015 we were 81st in rushing, 17th overall. In 2014 37th vs run, 36th overall. Based on S&P+ we seem most similar to 2013 at this point.

Seems like this year the defense has played well for long stretches, but has been prone to giving up explosive plays. Usually from certain players being out of their gap or getting badly fooled by misdirection. Last night add poor tackling effort to the mix and we have 371 yards given up on the ground.
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By all means. Badgers might have to give oxygen to Taylor after he goes for 300 or so yards. But I think my point still stands. We tend to think the defenses in the previous years were so much better. Again, maybe grasping at straws but some of the over-reactions on GH just get so old. Didn't expect a season like this, but we had questions at several positions this year and the injuries certainly didn't help. If people couldn't see the differences in the strength and the speed of the two teams last night, no convincing them the fault is all due to PJ's emphasis on culture and the fact that he can't coach.
 

If they start Cashman he will be overexposed

MnplsGopher said:
Cashman is actually bigger than Barber, too. He's bigger than all the starting linebackers.

If he was too slow, that would make sense. But obviously he has "enough" speed .... he makes plays.
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You will see if they start Cashman what I am talking about. They will isolate him in space with tight ends and backs, and the results will not be good.
 

Homecoming King said:
The majority of their players are bigger, faster, stronger than ours. They are more skilled at their positions i.e. pass, catch, tackle, block, etc.
They have an amazing amount of HS football talent within an hour of their campus. They will become a good team with the current staff if they can continue to recruit their local kids.
It’s difficult to watch an under-manned team get beat regularly. Our coach has a plan. . . . I think it’s a good one. Let’s support him and the boys.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Will be there to support the coaches, the players and especially your tailgate. The Boathouse will remain undefeated next week.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
How is this defense most similar to 2013 when that defense was ranked 65th overall and this one is 31st? This defense is far more comparable to the last three years than it is to 2013.
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So now the D is performing similar to the past few years. Except when you want to make excuses.

Check.
 

Sparlimb said:
They better keep Rowin'. Because we aren't at a good spot here. So we need to get somewhere else...

This game went right along the lines I thought it would. Our defense has regressed a lot from the past few years (combination of scheme and players) and our offense still sucks. Flecks get several to correct both.
Click to expand...

Not according to Weather Guy.
 


WorkingMyTailOff said:
I would have to disagree. McGhee did not have a good game last night, but in my opinion he is one of the top three players on this defense along with Richardson and Celestin.
He has a chance to play at the next level.
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I hope you're referring to some other player and just mistaken here. McGhee is definitely one of the worst players in the secondary ... though that might not be saying much.

He is either directly or largely indirectly responsible for several touchdowns by the Iowa and Michigan offenses, just of the last two games.
 

Spoofin said:
Seriously Dude. You can't use PJ's depth charts to make any point. You should know this. smh
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Doesn't change the point, at all. Fine, pretend Jacob Huff vanished into thin air.

As my question still correctly asks: who is there to replace McGhee after benching him?? Is there no one else worthy of even trying??
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Yeah they are with less talent. That’s what better coaching does.
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Based on your assessment, we will have more talent next year than this year. PJ recruiting, great coaching.

Surely more wins will follow.

Until the excuses flow. You want it both ways. Not gonna happen.
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
You will see if they start Cashman what I am talking about. They will isolate him in space with tight ends and backs, and the results will not be good.
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I hope we do get the chance to test your claim. I highly doubt it will be true, at all.
 

Are you joking?

Face The Facts said:
1. This game pretty much went how I expected. No shocker to lose at Michigan.

2. Kids did a good job closing the door in the 4th quarter. (We won the 4th quarter 3-0). :)

3. A good chunk of their yardage came on those three long runs. I'm not sure what happened there, but it was surprising to see we never had anyone in the secondary who could make a saving tackle.
Not sure if the secondary is slow, hurt, tired or just way out of position, but I haven't seen anything like that since Corey Dillon ran for 5 TD's when he was with the Bengals. (Or Shaun Alexander against the Vikings)

4. Kids are buying to to what Fleck preaches. Even when hit with a fatal blow to go down 33-0. They stop the 2 point conversion which was a moral victory at the time. At that point in the game it felt like it was going to be 50-something to 7. Michigan (after what happened today in other games) could use all the style points they could get. Proud of the kids for playing hard.

5. Disappointed in the negativity of many of the fans on here. Many in the game thread seemed to want to see things get worse "trainwreck" style.
29,22,58,23, and 24 were the margins of loss during the last 5 losses of the Kill and Mason eras. It was uglier in the 90's.

To use @Michigan as your barometer on how good a coach is seems like a exercise of poor judgement.

Seems like some people just want to be angry.
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Are you kidding me? The kids quit. Are you watching the same game as me. The kids quit on PJ. They are not buying what he is selling. The excuse that we are young is nothing more than an excuse. Michigan is just as young. Everyone is talking about our recruits. You mean all the ones that were committed to MAC schools. Welcome back to being bottom feeders.
 

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