I think I've got it figured out.

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RolGnav

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This coaching staff just doesn't know how to use the current roster. They probably haven't had enough time to learn what each player can and can't do. Example: Devers, Cashman. Would the old staff have won more games this year? Yes, because they recruited these guys and know what style these guys fit the best. The previous coaching staff could do without a decent QB and still win most games. This staff is just learning about it's own players, not to mention it's opponent's play style. And it's probably not going to get better next year either. So yes, sadly, we are in rebuild mode. The four losses were winnable, maybe minus Michigan State, but a few coaching adjustments here and there, we could be have been bowl eligible already. I've accepted rebuild mode now...
 

Next year we should be significantly better. Douglass, Bell, Winfield, Durr, Craighton, Thomas and improved QB play.
 

#embracethesuck

Valid points. Unless you are completely naive, we knew Fleck's crew wasn't going to get 9 wins like Vegas was predicting.

What has made this difficult to swallow is that they have competed in spite of a really young, inexperienced roster, a bare QB cupboard and piling injuries. As always, its a couple major plays that make the difference between loses and maybe the Gophs squeaking out a few wins.

But watching the offense stall in the red zone, or worse yet, turn the ball over repeatedly has been aggravating to say the least.
 

I agree - this is a much better team talent-wise than 1-4. Why are we coming into a new job saying that it'll be a rebuilding year? I'd be pissed as a returning player. SMH.
 

RolGnav said:
This coaching staff just doesn't know how to use the current roster. They probably haven't had enough time to learn what each player can and can't do. Example: Devers, Cashman. Would the old staff have won more games this year? Yes, because they recruited these guys and know what style these guys fit the best. The previous coaching staff could do without a decent QB and still win most games. This staff is just learning about its own players, not to mention it's opponent's play style. And it's probably not going to get better next year either. So yes, sadly, we are in rebuild mode. The four losses were winnable, maybe minus Michigan State, but a few coaching adjustments here and there, we could be have been bowl eligible already. I've accepted rebuild mode now...
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I think this is a thoughful post and you articulated your point well. However, I am not buying it. These guys are coaches by profession. There job to be involved in football-related activities all day, every day. If we can sit down for three hours on Saturday, assess players' strengths and weakness with a beer in hand; I expect the coaching staff to do the same with hours of practice, games, film and past experience on thier side. If the current roster isn't equiped to handle the new system, then it's up to the coaches to improvise and come up with a gameplan that suits the current strengths of the team.
 


Scoops5 said:
#embracethesuck

What has made this difficult to swallow is that they have competed in spite of a really young, inexperienced roster, a bare QB cupboard and piling injuries. As always, its a couple major plays that make the difference between loses and maybe the Gophs squeaking out a few wins.
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This has actually made me hopeful for the future, and willing to give the coaching staff some time instead of coming on a forum and throwing out random Fleck quotes to make it seem like he's over his head. Maybe those posters will be validated three years down the road, but I'm convinced Fleck is a good coach and will get this turned around. I've seen growth in the team the past few weeks. It hasn't produced results yet, but I think it will in the future. It's clear the players have bought in, but we just don't have the talent to get it done yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

topos said:
I think this is a thoughful post and you articulated your point well. However, I am not buying it. These guys are coaches by profession. There job to be involved in football-related activities all day, every day. If we can sit down for three hours on Saturday, assess players' strengths and weakness with a beer in hand; I expect the coaching staff to do the same with hours of practice, games, film and past experience on thier side. If the current roster isn't equiped to handle the new system, then it's up to the coaches to improvise and come up with a gameplan that suits the current strengths of the team.
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I agree with much of the OP and with your post. But allow me to offer a different opinion. The staff cares less about wins this year (especially when the ceiling was probably 6 or 7 wins) than it does about running the system the want to run. So we've seen a lot of square pegs in round holes this year. They know perfectly well what Cashman and Devers can do. And the OL and the QBs. So they tweak here and there to accommodate for that, but they install and run their schemes for the long term so that the team can see them on film and improve. They're playing for 3 or 4 years from now. Unfortunately, it's extremely painful as a fan...I hate it. But I'm not getting paid $3 million to build a championship program. We'll see how it works out for those who are. They might fail...would've be the first time at MN.
 

bfast said:
I agree - this is a much better team talent-wise than 1-4. Why are we coming into a new job saying that it'll be a rebuilding year? I'd be pissed as a returning player. SMH.
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If they were upset, they had plenty of opportunities to leave of strike, or not play. They displayed their leverage last winter before the bowl game. If any of the players are really unhappy, I'm sure any of them can leave the team tomorrow. It's been done by players in the past, so I don't think there are laws about it.

It's adorable that you feel so strongly for how the players should feel. It's very millenial of you to care so much about how they should feel.
 

Did people watch Devers play after the first two games last season? I think he had less than 8 tackles the entire season including the first two games.
 



MGGopher said:
I agree with much of the OP and with your post. But allow me to offer a different opinion. The staff cares less about wins this year (especially when the ceiling was probably 6 or 7 wins) than it does about running the system the want to run. So we've seen a lot of square pegs in round holes this year. They know perfectly well what Cashman and Devers can do. And the OL and the QBs. So they tweak here and there to accommodate for that, but they install and run their schemes for the long term so that the team can see them on film and improve. They're playing for 3 or 4 years from now. Unfortunately, it's extremely painful as a fan...I hate it. But I'm not getting paid $3 million to build a championship program. We'll see how it works out for those who are. They might fail...would've be the first time at MN.
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This is true.

What many people on here seem to be wanting Fleck to do is to be a Brewster where he changes OC's every 9 games until something sticks to the wall.
Not sure why any high stakes (high salaried) coach would come in and spend a year not running the system he wants to appease a group of players who will be gone from the program in 1-2 years.
 

Its quite simply the Fleck staff is implementing their system and showcasing it to recruits. Nothing more than that. Same thing every first year staff does and why most of the time there's struggles the first year. You are sacrificing current success (which sucks for now) for long term success. We'll see if it pans out. Fleck's kinda said as much as they could have grinded teams down the way the Kill/Claeys staff did and win a game or two more but it would just delay them adjusting to their culture/system.
 

topos said:
I think this is a thoughful post and you articulated your point well. However, I am not buying it. These guys are coaches by profession. There job to be involved in football-related activities all day, every day. If we can sit down for three hours on Saturday, assess players' strengths and weakness with a beer in hand; I expect the coaching staff to do the same with hours of practice, games, film and past experience on thier side. If the current roster isn't equiped to handle the new system, then it's up to the coaches to improvise and come up with a gameplan that suits the current strengths of the team.
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Well my point still stands, and I agree with your point too. In fact, that's why I added the "a few coaching adjustments" comment.... If this was a great coaching staff, they would have won most of those close games with the right coaching. But hey, it is what it is. Coach Fleck is still young, and hopefully he will turn this thing around soon.
 

I don't know if, they don't know.

But I am confused about some things they seem to be doing.... but that would probabbly be the case at all times anyway...
 



John Galt said:
Next year we should be significantly better. Douglass, Bell, Winfield, Durr, Craighton, Thomas and improved QB play.
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Mr. Galt, you had a post like this last week. Nobody knows if that is true. Only Winfield has proven himself at all. Bell has never played a down. Douglass catching a few balls against weak nonconference teams doesn’t make him a star. Durr, Craighton, and Thomas - who knows. Improved quarterback play? How the heck do you know that? Croft looks to be in way over his head and Morgan has not played a down. I do know this; losing Richardson, Stelter, and Jackson is a significant loss right up the gut of the d line and there is very little waiting in the wings. Celestin is a big loss. The O Line lost one last week and with Wright and Calhoun moving on, there continues to be a major issue with regards to depth. Those are facts and they will be big question marks going into the season next year.
 

3399 said:
Mr. Galt, you had a post like this last week. Nobody knows if that is true. Only Winfield has proven himself at all. Bell has never played a down. Douglass catching a few balls against weak nonconference teams doesn’t make him a star. Durr, Craighton, and Thomas - who knows. Improved quarterback play? How the heck do you know that? Croft looks to be in way over his head and Morgan has not played a down. I do know this; losing Richardson, Stelter, and Jackson is a significant loss right up the gut of the d line and there is very little waiting in the wings. Celestin is a big loss. The O Line lost one last week and with Wright and Calhoun moving on, there continues to be a major issue with regards to depth. Those are facts and they will be big question marks going into the season next year.
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It's never a guarantee, but these guys are all starters/borderline starters. At a minimum, they will give us considerably more depth.

From every thing I've seen in the couple of games and practices, a WR corp of Johnson, Douglass, Bell, Howard gets me excited for next season.

I've seen enough from Durr to confidently think that having him healthy is AT LEAST better than converting a safety to cover the slot.

Winfield might be our best player.

These guys will make a big difference.
 

GopherNuts said:
Its quite simply the Fleck staff is implementing their system and showcasing it to recruits. Nothing more than that. Same thing every first year staff does and why most of the time there's struggles the first year. You are sacrificing current success (which sucks for now) for long term success. We'll see if it pans out. Fleck's kinda said as much as they could have grinded teams down the way the Kill/Claeys staff did and win a game or two more but it would just delay them adjusting to their culture/system.
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Showcasing their system to recruits? Hey kiddos, look at our great passing game. Wanna sign up?
 

DoubleAlum said:
Showcasing their system to recruits? Hey kiddos, look at our great passing game. Wanna sign up?
Click to expand...

I mean, we had a lot of drops, a few in places that would have been large gains. More like "Hey, this is what we run" and hoping recruits go "I would catch that, I like what their throwing"
 

Scoops5 said:
#embracethesuck

Valid points. Unless you are completely naive, we knew Fleck's crew wasn't going to get 9 wins like Vegas was predicting.

What has made this difficult to swallow is that they have competed in spite of a really young, inexperienced roster, a bare QB cupboard and piling injuries. As always, its a couple major plays that make the difference between loses and maybe the Gophs squeaking out a few wins.

But watching the offense stall in the red zone, or worse yet, turn the ball over repeatedly has been aggravating to say the least.
Click to expand...

I don't think Vegas predicted 9 wins. I think the win total was like 7.5.
 

MGGopher said:
I agree with much of the OP and with your post. But allow me to offer a different opinion. The staff cares less about wins this year (especially when the ceiling was probably 6 or 7 wins) than it does about running the system the want to run. So we've seen a lot of square pegs in round holes this year. They know perfectly well what Cashman and Devers can do. And the OL and the QBs. So they tweak here and there to accommodate for that, but they install and run their schemes for the long term so that the team can see them on film and improve. They're playing for 3 or 4 years from now. Unfortunately, it's extremely painful as a fan...I hate it. But I'm not getting paid $3 million to build a championship program. We'll see how it works out for those who are. They might fail...would've be the first time at MN.
Click to expand...

If that's the case, then someone - Fleck, Coyle, someone should just come out and say so.

If Fleck would have opened the season by saying something like "this is going to be a transition year from the old system to the new system. The returning players are learning a new system. My coaches and I are coaching in the B1G for the first time. So don't expect us to come out and be world-beaters right off the bat. we might struggle at times. we might not win as many games as some people would like. But, the entire point of this season is to lay the groundwork for future success. and I believe we will succeed in the future."

If Fleck would had said something like that, I think 90% of the fans would have understood and accepted it. But Fleck didn't say that. Maybe he should have.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
If that's the case, then someone - Fleck, Coyle, someone should just come out and say so.

If Fleck would have opened the season by saying something like "this is going to be a transition year from the old system to the new system. The returning players are learning a new system. My coaches and I are coaching in the B1G for the first time. So don't expect us to come out and be world-beaters right off the bat. we might struggle at times. we might not win as many games as some people would like. But, the entire point of this season is to lay the groundwork for future success. and I believe we will succeed in the future."

If Fleck would had said something like that, I think 90% of the fans would have understood and accepted it. But Fleck didn't say that. Maybe he should have.
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Go back and listen to his interviews, press conferences, etc. He did everything but scream “it’s going to be a long year”. He was met with; ‘I’m sick of hearing we only had 4/5 linemen in the spring”; we won nine games last year. He has talented players; Etc.
Who were you listening to? Watch his post-game and Tuesday press conferences, his radio, TV and online shows. He has been very clear about our inability to do a lot of things offensively and lack of depth and ability by playing guys who are not ready to play.
Listening is a skill.
 

Uy
short ornery norwegian said:
If that's the case, then someone - Fleck, Coyle, someone should just come out and say so.

If Fleck would have opened the season by saying something like "this is going to be a transition year from the old system to the new system. The returning players are learning a new system. My coaches and I are coaching in the B1G for the first time. So don't expect us to come out and be world-beaters right off the bat. we might struggle at times. we might not win as many games as some people would like. But, the entire point of this season is to lay the groundwork for future success. and I believe we will succeed in the future."

If Fleck would had said something like that, I think 90% of the fans would have understood and accepted it. But Fleck didn't say that. Maybe he should have.
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He did. What do you think year 0 means?
 


Homecoming King said:
Go back and listen to his interviews, press conferences, etc. He did everything but scream “it’s going to be a long year”. He was met with; ‘I’m sick of hearing we only had 4/5 linemen in the spring”; we won nine games last year. He has talented players; Etc.
Who were you listening to? Watch his post-game and Tuesday press conferences, his radio, TV and online shows. He has been very clear about our inability to do a lot of things offensively and lack of depth and ability by playing guys who are not ready to play.
Listening is a skill.
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+1 Interesting how I don't think the Gophers have ever had a coach whose words are examined so closely; and yet so many don't get what he's saying or just refuse to believe it.
 

Much of what he says doesn't make sense. His damn the torpedoes full speed ahead with a new system and the wrong players isn't very bright and he has alienated many fans. You put the players you have in the best position to win and transition to your preferred system as you bring the players in for it. This isn't rocket science. You can't take a 9 win team and drag them to the bottom of the conference and have the support of fans who understand the game. Wisconsin routinely take QBs of moderate talent and put them in a position to win. Fleck could have done the same this year. He does not appear to be a good judge of QB talent or have the ability to coach ours up. To claim all 4 are terrible and can not play is incredibly foolish and wrong.
 

I've meant to start a separate thread on this topic, but I'll post here instead. I think some of the drop off this year actually pertains to philosophy. If you asked Jerry Kill whether football games were lost or won, he would tell you that football games are lost. For Jerry, you won by not losing. As a result, he organized things around raising the floor: offensive philosophy, play selection, whether to punt or go for it, selection of starters - everything. Why did Leidner start? Because he had the highest floor, not because he had the highest ceiling.

Fleck appears to believe in organizing around ceilings, while using culture to manage floors. Ultimately, this provides "head room" for much better outcomes - the team will be able to compete with and beat the best in the B1G. But, at the start, while the culture is not firmly in place, the floor can be pretty low. That's what I think we're seeing now.
 

Mulligan said:
+1 Interesting how I don't think the Gophers have ever had a coach whose words are examined so closely; and yet so many don't get what he's saying or just refuse to believe it.
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Yep - PJ was correct about the doom and gloom he promised this year. We can debate why, but he was right. We suck just like Coach has been saying we do. Kudos PJ.

Now I wonder if I looked really really hard if I could find something, anything, he has said that wasn't honest. Give me a couple days, there has to be something.


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What we are seeing is that Fleck is not a B1G coach yet. Apparently he figures it will take him 4 or 5 years to become one.
 

diehard said:
His damn the torpedoes full speed ahead with a new system and the wrong players isn't very bright and he has alienated many fans. You put the players you have in the best position to win and transition to your preferred system as you bring the players in for it. This isn't rocket science.
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You install your system from day one an run it with the current players on the roster. The thought being as the more time in the system they will get better at it.
All the while recruiting players that are a better fit for the system. If that alienates fans in the short term so what.

The players have been put in position to make plays and win games. They just haven’t made enough plays. It’s not like they’re getting blown out. They have had their chances.


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Nort73 said:
This has actually made me hopeful for the future, and willing to give the coaching staff some time instead of coming on a forum and throwing out random Fleck quotes to make it seem like he's over his head. Maybe those posters will be validated three years down the road, but I'm convinced Fleck is a good coach and will get this turned around. I've seen growth in the team the past few weeks. It hasn't produced results yet, but I think it will in the future. It's clear the players have bought in, but we just don't have the talent to get it done yet.


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I agree with you 100%. It is tough to see them come out of the red zone without points, but overall these kids are playing hard and not under achieving considering their talent level.
I think a good chunk of those poster that are throwing out Fleck quotes are rival trolls that are loving our record this year. There were a number of new accounts last night on the in Game thread that were doing exactly that.
 

Taji34 said:
I mean, we had a lot of drops, a few in places that would have been large gains. More like "Hey, this is what we run" and hoping recruits go "I would catch that, I like what their throwing"
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This is exactly what I mean. We could ground and pound teams into the ground...maybe win a game or two more but as the Kill/Claeys crew learned that isn't attractive to recruits and has a limited ceiling. Lay the foundation now and add talent that think they can do better. All you have to do is look at a program like Nebraska that spent the first few years catering to the talent and in turn waited until year 3 (this year) to start using their system and guess what? Everyone's running Riley out of town. It's common sense to do it this way. Get players on the current roster adjusted to the system and then grow with better talent through recruiting.
 

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