we get younger in 2018?

son,

I appreciate your contribution to this board in so many ways--especially the Sunday recaps--and you make valid points: Lord knows the Big Ten has been the graveyard of MAC coaching careers. However, I disagree with your assessment on "that's all we know".

For instance, Fleck has made it clear that he favors a four-five year player development model whereas the previous regimes had relied on JUCOs to plug in where needed. That's a coaching philosophy issue, and the changeover in approach could quite easily have an effect on the W/L column.

What we know is that Fleck is intensely ambitious and it's about more than money. WMU could find the money, but they couldn't find the road Fleck needs to what he wants. You know why I think Minnesota was on Fleck's "list"? Winning the B1G West is doable and puts you 3 games from the NC. As long as you handle the season and the B1G East rep convincingly, you're automatically in the playoff conversation. You get those games, you're National Champion. You do it twice or three times--you're the guy that rebuilt a dormant dynasty. Minnesota builds a statue of you with Kirby Puckett kissing your ring.

Seems like everyone wants to see Brewster in Fleck. I don't. To me, he's Holtz: A record of success (albeit Fleck's is less impressive), a disciplinarian on and off the field, and brutally, intensely goal-driven.

As a long time Minnesota fan, I was so dismayed when Kill said they went to talk with Mason about what it would take to win at Minnesota, and reportedly Mason told Kill to eat 3 cupcakes, schedule 1 competitive ooc, and try to get the "winnable" games in the B1G. You know, because that's Minnesota.

Look, I don't know what it will take to win at Minnesota, but I do know it starts with hunger, desire, and a willingness to throw aside anything that's in the way. Is Fleck the guy? I think so, but only time will tell.

As for this season, the now if you will, coaching changes are funny things--there's always player issues. Players and coaches have distinct personalities--sometimes they clash. Or they disagree on future development. For instance, my coach felt I'd be better on offensive line (the scut work of college football). At that point, I thought my coach would be more useful as an untenured phy ed instructor. It didn't work out well, and it spilled on the rest of the team and probably on the field. New systems, a new team--not just players, all the support pretty much. It can be tricky.

I don't like to see us lose. I don't like seeing winnable games slip away. But I'm totally rowing and trying to patiently give PJ the time to get up and running. Time will tell, as it always does.

And truthfully, PJ's a little conservative for my tastes: If you want to walk on water, you've got to get out of the boat.

Anti-JUCOism is a common sentiment here, likely because they carry higher risk of academic or personal "baggage". However, most teams utilize them them (but at widely varying rates). Personally I think properly chosen they have a higher hit rate than a typical HS senior recruit, particularly those fringe or low to mid 3 stars. They're older and have more tape vs better competition.

Kill used quite a few and IIRC most were impact players or contributors. We weren't exactly KSU although we had more than Iowa, most likely. A select few:

BBC
Damien Wilson
D. Campbell
Miles Thomas
Donnell Greene

Fleck seems to be recruiting several JUCO lineman. We have Silver already. The anti-JUCO persecution must stop.
 

Here's my thinking if I'm PJF: Redshirt as many of this year's true freshman as possible. Play any true freshman that are talented enough to play in the 2017-2018 signing class for the 2018 season. The next 18 games are to used to build for one thing: The 2019 season. Gophers go 4-8 this year, 6-6 plus or minus a game in 2018. It's 2019 where PJF should go all in. Have you seen that schedule? Incremental inmprovement year 1 to year 2 and, BOOM, year 3 the Gophers go 9-3 or better with mostly PJF's recruits and it'll show he knows how to (re)build a program. PJF will then have other schools /ADs fawning over him and MN will have to really boost Flecks and his assistants salary handsomely or lose him to a school with a bigger brand and deeper pockets.

The next 2 years really don't matter to me as a fan and I've set my expectations as such.
Will he hire someone to manage the game?

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This year is 'Year Zero', and since the team will be 'getting younger', it follows that next year will be 'Year -1', the following year 2019 will therefore be another 'Year Zero', and if everything falls just right 2020 will FINALLY be year 1. I can't wait !! ;)
Well said

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Anti-JUCOism is a common sentiment here, likely because they carry higher risk of academic or personal "baggage". However, most teams utilize them them (but at widely varying rates). Personally I think properly chosen they have a higher hit rate than a typical HS senior recruit, particularly those fringe or low to mid 3 stars. They're older and have more tape vs better competition.

Kill used quite a few and IIRC most were impact players or contributors. We weren't exactly KSU although we had more than Iowa, most likely. A select few:

BBC
Damien Wilson
D. Campbell
Miles Thomas
Donnell Greene

Fleck seems to be recruiting several JUCO lineman. We have Silver already. The anti-JUCO persecution must stop.

I agree. I'm fine with JUCOs.
 



I brought the JUCO thing up in this thread because if Fleck wants to stop/limit Jucos and concentrate on 4 or 5 year players, it will skew the next class or two younger than they might otherwise have been.
 

BIG vs the MAC

Among the arguments that drive me nuts:

Fleck won in the MAC, so he's going to win in the B1G.

That's like saying I know a guy with a winning record as a 9-man high school coach, so he could go to Eden Prairie and do just as well as Mike Grant.

Can we call agree the B1G is a better conference than the MAC? Can we agree the B1G has better players, more talented players overall than the MAC? (not talking about 1 or 2 good kids - roster-wide depth).

Can we agree that a B1G coach needs to recruit better players than a MAC coach to be competitive?

And, can we agree that we don't know what kind of a B1G Coach PJ Fleck is going to be. We don't know. We don't know. Hoping is not knowing. Wishing is not knowing. We know he won at the MAC. We don't know if he will win at the B1G level.

at this point, the only thing we know is that Fleck is 3-3 as a major conference D1 Coach, and is 0-3 as a B1G coach. that is all we know. Hoping, wishing and dreaming do not put wins on the board. playing better than the other team puts wins on the board.

Can we also agree that Fleck's Western Michigan team, in 2016, beat Northwestern at Evanston and Illinois at Champaigne, as well as giving Wisconsin all they wanted in the Cotton Bowl. Plus had his team ranked #12 in the country at the end of the season!!! Your logic implies that Fleck's Western Michigan team did not have the talent to compete in the BIG, but being ranked in the top 15 in the country, certainly would imply otherwise. Give the guy a chance, and also give him at least 3 years of recruiting here at Minnesota with the new facilities and such. I think the "year ZERO" comment simply refers to the fact that the recruiting class from this past Winter was put together in about a week and a half, but next year's class will really be his first "true" year of recruiting.
 

Every team gets younger in the fall. Every year. Then as the season progresses, it gets older. Every year.

Weird how that works. We needed a thread.
 

Can we also agree that Fleck's Western Michigan team, in 2016, beat Northwestern at Evanston and Illinois at Champaigne, as well as giving Wisconsin all they wanted in the Cotton Bowl. Plus had his team ranked #12 in the country at the end of the season!!! Your logic implies that Fleck's Western Michigan team did not have the talent to compete in the BIG, but being ranked in the top 15 in the country, certainly would imply otherwise. Give the guy a chance, and also give him at least 3 years of recruiting here at Minnesota with the new facilities and such. I think the "year ZERO" comment simply refers to the fact that the recruiting class from this past Winter was put together in about a week and a half, but next year's class will really be his first "true" year of recruiting.

The two victories you mentioned vs jNU and IL are often treated as * wins for the Gophers so I'm not sure highlighting them as the masterpieces for WMU supports the argument. Going undefeated is more impressive than any one team they beat. They had zero signature wins. Not even close. They may have done alright in the Big-West, but their schedule does not imply they would have been successful in the B1G nor does it justify the ranking they had. IMO. I'd say the Gophers would have had a great shot to finish 13-1 last year against the same schedule (and likely would have had the same rating, etc. had they done so).


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If we are using class size+experience to define "young", won't the Gophs actually be the same or "older" in 2018?
 

Can we also agree that Fleck's Western Michigan team, in 2016, beat Northwestern at Evanston and Illinois at Champaigne, as well as giving Wisconsin all they wanted in the Cotton Bowl. Plus had his team ranked #12 in the country at the end of the season!!! Your logic implies that Fleck's Western Michigan team did not have the talent to compete in the BIG, but being ranked in the top 15 in the country, certainly would imply otherwise. Give the guy a chance, and also give him at least 3 years of recruiting here at Minnesota with the new facilities and such. I think the "year ZERO" comment simply refers to the fact that the recruiting class from this past Winter was put together in about a week and a half, but next year's class will really be his first "true" year of recruiting.

He recruited for four years at WMU...that team he built is younger and more inexperienced than the inheirited roster here that he complains about non-stop....WMU has 27 frosh and soph guys in the two deeps...no experienced QB for new guy at WMU, new guy having to play frosh on Oline and in secondary. That roster he recruited just lost to Akron and needed seven over times to beat Buffalo....that is concerning to me. And, it makes him seem like a huge hypocrite when he complains about the lack of age and experience he has been given.
 

He recruited for four years at WMU...that team he built is younger and more inexperienced than the inheirited roster here that he complains about non-stop....WMU has 27 frosh and soph guys in the two deeps...no experienced QB for new guy at WMU, new guy having to play frosh on Oline and in secondary. That roster he recruited just lost to Akron and needed seven over times to beat Buffalo....that is concerning to me. And, it makes him seem like a huge hypocrite when he complains about the lack of age and experience he has been given.

Do you think people can't look stuff up when you make stuff up? There is 17 1st or 2nd year guys on the two deep at WMU. 1 redshirt freshman playing on the offensive line and 1 redshirt freshman starting in the secondary. There would be 0 freshman playing on the offensive line if a player didn't get hurt early in the season. The experienced QB transferred after PJ left.
 

Do you think people can't look stuff up when you make stuff up? There is 17 1st or 2nd year guys on the two deep at WMU. 1 redshirt freshman playing on the offensive line and 1 redshirt freshman starting in the secondary. There would be 0 freshman playing on the offensive line if a player didn't get hurt early in the season. The experienced QB transferred after PJ left.

Look up how many frosh and sophs for me. Thanks.

Look up how much experience the transfer had. And where did he land? Some high powered offensive program?

Any takes on the 7 ot struggle to beat the mighty Bulls or the Akron Zips home loss? Thanks.
 



Look up how many frosh and sophs for me. Thanks.

Look up how much experience the transfer had. And where did he land? Some high powered offensive program?

Any takes on the 7 ot struggle to beat the mighty Bulls or the Akron Zips home loss? Thanks.

Look at the 3 year 247 recruiting rankings and you must have the winner.
 

Look up how many frosh and sophs for me. Thanks.

Look up how much experience the transfer had. And where did he land? Some high powered offensive program?

Any takes on the 7 ot struggle to beat the mighty Bulls or the Akron Zips home loss? Thanks.

The transfer had more experience than Rhoda and Croft combined and he quit football all together

Why would I care about what they did against Buffalo and Akron? I'm sure you're blaming Claeys for the results this season. Pretty obvious has the most talent in the MAC.
 

That roster he recruited just lost to Akron and needed seven over times to beat Buffalo.

Based on that logic Kill/Claeys should be blamed for the losses to Maryland and Purdue this year.
 

He recruited for four years at WMU...that team he built is younger and more inexperienced than the inheirited roster here that he complains about non-stop....WMU has 27 frosh and soph guys in the two deeps...no experienced QB for new guy at WMU, new guy having to play frosh on Oline and in secondary. That roster he recruited just lost to Akron and needed seven over times to beat Buffalo....that is concerning to me. And, it makes him seem like a huge hypocrite when he complains about the lack of age and experience he has been given.

Stating something and complaining about it are two different things.
 

Next year we will be younger and more inexperienced at DT. And possibly safety. And TE.

We should be more experienced everywhere else.
 


Yes they are. Which do you think PJ does?


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PJ makes statements designed to damper expectations while at the same time saying he wants to be elite.
PJ says to trust the process, but he gives no time line for the process. It's just expected that people will trust an undefined and nebulous process.
I think most people are okay with trusting the process, but they want to know how long to wait. Gopher fans have 50 years of waiting on a nebulous process. We've seen just about every process known to man, but we have not seen this mysterious "elite" PJ talks of.
 


He's stating facts or things he thinks need to be improved (like depth).

Well, I would say he is complaining (more whining, but complaining was the closest choice). Not unlike he does with how the media covers the team (whining). Not unlike a number of things. You are entitled to your opinion, but will just have to agree to disagree with me (& Swingman it seems).


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PJ makes statements designed to damper expectations while at the same time saying he wants to be elite.
PJ says to trust the process, but he gives no time line for the process. It's just expected that people will trust an undefined and nebulous process.
I think most people are okay with trusting the process, but they want to know how long to wait. Gopher fans have 50 years of waiting on a nebulous process. We've seen just about every process known to man, but we have not seen this mysterious "elite" PJ talks of.

If he gave a time line, he'd be guessing. Imagine if he says 3 years but it takes 4.
 

If he gave a time line, he'd be guessing. Imagine if he says 3 years but it takes 4.
I understand that. But, this state has been waiting on failed process for 50 years. Perhaps just a bit more detail on how this current process is designed as opposed to all the other ones.
 

Look up how many frosh and sophs for me. Thanks.

Look up how much experience the transfer had. And where did he land? Some high powered offensive program?

Any takes on the 7 ot struggle to beat the mighty Bulls or the Akron Zips home loss? Thanks.
So, sounds like either Fleck was one hell of a coach or the players he recruited do not fit the new coach's system for such a huge dropoff. Maybe a combination of both.

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PJ makes statements designed to damper expectations while at the same time saying he wants to be elite.
PJ says to trust the process, but he gives no time line for the process. It's just expected that people will trust an undefined and nebulous process.
I think most people are okay with trusting the process, but they want to know how long to wait. Gopher fans have 50 years of waiting on a nebulous process. We've seen just about every process known to man, but we have not seen this mysterious "elite" PJ talks of.

What coach in America predicts that they will win their division 3 years from now?

I think PJ has been pretty clear that it will be year 3 that a significant jump will be made. There is also no reason we shouldn't be better next year.
 

What coach in America predicts that they will win their division 3 years from now?

I think PJ has been pretty clear that it will be year 3 that a significant jump will be made. There is also no reason we shouldn't be better next year.
What is the actual process?
 







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