Next petition bring back Jay Sawvel or better DC

False, Mason's defense in 1999 was better than any of Claeys' defenses.

When looking at the Gophers S&P ranking compared to the rest of the B1G over the past 6 seasons, the Gophers on average had the 8th best defense in the conference. Their highest ranking was last year, but it was still only 6th best in the conference. That is a fact. Those rankings closely compare to other defensive stats.

Their offense's average S&P ranking was 8.33 over past 6 seasons, so only slightly worse than the defense when comparing them to the rest of the B1G.

The average rankings of ~8 out of 12/14 teams, make sense when Kill/Claeys combined conference record was 20-29.

Again, I don't have a bias or dislike for Claeys/Kill. I do dislike it when the biggest Claeysists such as yourself want to vastly overrate what the previous regime accomplished. We've been a mediocre program since Mason took over and we still are today. There's plenty of room for improvement on both sides of the ball.

One year Masons D was better. Agreed. The contention is and still no Acknowledgement from you is the D in the past 5 years was as good as we've seen around here in a long time.
That is not overrating their accomplishments. It is giving credit for what they were good at. Recognizing unheralded players in HS and getting them to play at a high level, on the defensive side of the ball.
Again I'll say they were not lights out dominant, but they had more sustained success on D than I can ever recall, and that goes back to the 70's. yet you still will not make any claim to that, instead you pivot, deflect, change the topic and yeah but it to death.



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PE versus JG in these battle of football minds is a little like Granada versus the US as far as actually knowing football.

Yes...clearly out of my league.

Galt is on record we have no talent on the team, Rhoda>>Croft, and our defense is apparently the reason we never rose to the top of the West. Silly me.
 

Jay Sawvel and Claeys lost to Michigan 58-0 in year 1. In year 1, everyone on here who now thinks Kill, Claeys and Sawvel are the greatest coaches ever were questioning why we hired a MAC staff. The last staff beat 1 top 25 team in 6 years. They were 0-6 vs Wisky.

Seriously, if that's the mountaintop, please let me know and I'll go find a new hobby.


Wow. Just wow.
 

One year Masons D was better. Agreed. The contention is and still no Acknowledgement from you is the D in the past 5 years was as good as we've seen around here in a long time.
That is not overrating their accomplishments. It is giving credit for what they were good at. Recognizing unheralded players in HS and getting them to play at a high level, on the defensive side of the ball.
Again I'll say they were not lights out dominant, but they had more sustained success on D than I can ever recall, and that goes back to the 70's. yet you still will not make any claim to that, instead you pivot, deflect, change the topic and yeah but it to death.



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They were pretty solid on defense I would agree. I also think they're overrated by many for the reasons he gave. You can think both things.
 

They were pretty solid on defense I would agree. I also think they're overrated by many for the reasons he gave. You can think both things.

All the reasons he gave are valid when comparing to rest of BIG.
How about when comparing to Gopher defenses over past 50 years?
Still believe they D was best we've seen from the Gophers over that time.


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Guys, in addition to the other items I listed I've had to defend statements that Streveler is a dynamic runner (and secondarily can complete the forward pass). There was a pages long debate on whether Dantonio has overachieved.

Since then I've learned Maryland is a top Big Ten team this year and beat us based largely on team speed and a top 2017 recruit rank (yet just lost to NW, a team they've outrecruited handily- wierd). Also, Purdue is deeper and despite worse recruit rankings and only winning one Big Ten game last year and 3 in the last four has an older team so we were destined to lose. It's all hard to follow at times but I try to keep up.
 

One year Masons D was better. Agreed. The contention is and still no Acknowledgement from you is the D in the past 5 years was as good as we've seen around here in a long time.
That is not overrating their accomplishments. It is giving credit for what they were good at. Recognizing unheralded players in HS and getting them to play at a high level, on the defensive side of the ball.
Again I'll say they were not lights out dominant, but they had more sustained success on D than I can ever recall, and that goes back to the 70's. yet you still will not make any claim to that, instead you pivot, deflect, change the topic and yeah but it to death.

Why does it matter if the defense was better than it has been for the majority of the last 50 years? Glen Mason's offense was better than any other offense over the past 50 years. Both ways produced mediocre results. That's all that matters.

I've never said the defense wasn't better and I've given Claeys and staff plenty of credit, including after last year's bowl game. But the Gophers also had a 2nd half lead in all 4 of their losses last year, including three 4th quarter leads. It wasn't entirely the defense's fault, but they still contributed to blowing the leads.

Given all the DB issues and the fact we have LBs playing DE, the defense still hasn't been that bad this year. We've had a chance to win every game. The offense is still the #1 issue.
 

Yes...clearly out of my league.

Galt is on record we have no talent on the team, Rhoda>>Croft, and our defense is apparently the reason we never rose to the top of the West. Silly me.

You're an amateur. I'll pay you $5000 in cash tomorrow if you can show me where I said any of those things.

After attending 1 fall practice I said Rhoda looked better. You said it was coachspeak.

I predicted 7-8 wins, not something that anyone would do except Alabama fans for a team that has no talent. I called out some of the significant roster losses and we have seen the impact.
 

To the Claeysites, here's my question: were you ultimately satisfied with the results of the program during the past 6 years?

BB was the only one with the courage to answer. Everyone else doesn't want to address it...
 



Vs the Brewster and nearly every Mason season? Yes.

If you are talking about cons titles and nat titles, then no. Of course not.

Fact is the d was really very good most of the past 6 seasons. The OFFENSE was the issue.

Kill was 29-29 overall, 14-21 in the Big Ten.

Mason was 64-57 overall, 32-48 in the Big Ten.

Almost identical records, but Mason had some bigger wins.
 

BB was the only one with the courage to answer. Everyone else doesn't want to address it...

Ultimately no
They did not achieve at a high enough level. They were able find more defensive talent, which kept us in more games throughout their time here.
This whole debate I have been discussing has been about the level of play of our defense that was sustained over the time they were here. It was the best I've seen compared to all other Gopher teams in the past 50. I did not bring up how they compared to rest of BIG, how the Mason 99 D was better, nor how many wins they had in that time. That was all done by GWG because he was losing the argument so he had to pivot and change parameters.
Think back to any time in The past 50 years of Gopher Football, the D we played over the past 5 years was the best we've seen around here. They were not perfect every week but were damn good. From season to season we could count on the D being good and you could see the talent on the field was on par with most of the Offenses they faced.



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Ultimately no
They did not achieve at a high enough level. They were able find more defensive talent, which kept us in more games throughout their time here.
This whole debate I have been discussing has been about the level of play of our defense that was sustained over the time they were here. It was the best I've seen compared to all other Gopher teams in the past 50. I did not bring up how they compared to rest of BIG, how the Mason 99 D was better, nor how many wins they had in that time. That was all done by GWG because he was losing the argument so he had to pivot and change parameters.
Think back to any time in The past 50 years of Gopher Football, the D we played over the past 5 years was the best we've seen around here. They were not perfect every week but were damn good. From season to season we could count on the D being good and you could see the talent on the field was on par with most of the Offenses they faced.



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Yes sir.
 

Since my last petition about Croft worked maybe this would work as well. Our DC is nothing compared to when Jay was here. Time to rally together and get our Elite defense back. If he was here still we wouldn't have depth issues.

I actually took some time to do the math (average points and yards per game-1st 6 games):

Year....Yards/Game.....Points/Game
2016...........357............21
2017...........335............19

Sorry this doesn't fit your agenda. Your post may be a Hall of Fame Worst Post Ever (the HFWPE)
 



It's college football. New guys start and/or play every year. 2016 class highest ranked since Brew's 2008 class IIRC. Young talent plus some solid upperclassmen returned. Our QB wasn't great, although better than Rhoda. We can play down to low expectations or challenge the guys to become great.

Seems a little fraudulent to on the one hand expect Fleck to dominate with a good recruiting class that are sophomores, when on the other hand Kill took over when that 2008 class were juniors and call that cupboard bare.
 

Seems a little fraudulent to on the one hand expect Fleck to dominate with a good recruiting class that are sophomores, when on the other hand Kill took over when that 2008 class were juniors and call that cupboard bare.

Dominate? We have the ability to beat Maryland and Purdue. We didn't, which is too bad. The deflections and rationalizations started at the top.

Eighty percent of life is showing up.
 

Seems a little fraudulent to on the one hand expect Fleck to dominate with a good recruiting class that are sophomores, when on the other hand Kill took over when that 2008 class were juniors and call that cupboard bare.

That class was overrated especially when you consider the amount of JUCOS and guys who ultimately couldn't get in or stay in. The class of 08 wasn't exactly well coached as their 2010 season would so once the Mason leftovers and JUCO players in that class we're gone
 

That class was overrated especially when you consider the amount of JUCOS and guys who ultimately couldn't get in or stay in. The class of 08 wasn't exactly well coached as their 2010 season would so once the Mason leftovers and JUCO players in that class we're gone

Rivals.com 2008 "Enrolled Rankings" dropped the Gophers from #17 to #35
 

BB was the only one with the courage to answer. Everyone else doesn't want to address it...

Maybe the people you consider a "Claeysite" don't consider themselves Claeysites. It's an odd way to ask a question and then expect people to actually answer.

But I assume your label goes for anyone who has anything negative to say about the current staff (or think it's silly to compare Kill's first year with Fleck "year zero"), so I'll answer.\

If the last six years were the pinnacle of the Kill/Claeys era, I would have been ready to move on at some point.

However, overall, do I think we were heading in the right direction? Absolutely. People on this site scoffed at the accomplishment of winning 9 football games, this year should be proof that isn't super easy.
 


Maybe the people you consider a "Claeysite" don't consider themselves Claeysites. It's an odd way to ask a question and then expect people to actually answer.

But I assume your label goes for anyone who has anything negative to say about the current staff (or think it's silly to compare Kill's first year with Fleck "year zero"), so I'll answer.\

If the last six years were the pinnacle of the Kill/Claeys era, I would have been ready to move on at some point.

However, overall, do I think we were heading in the right direction? Absolutely. People on this site scoffed at the accomplishment of winning 9 football games, this year should be proof that isn't super easy.

Now three have answered the question. All have said that they were not satisfied with the overall win results. Yet we can recognize that the D was good during the Kill/Claeys time when compared to other U defenses over that many years. Your Claeysites comment just doesn't hold true. Sorry to burst your bubble on that.
 

All the reasons he gave are valid when comparing to rest of BIG.
How about when comparing to Gopher defenses over past 50 years?
Still believe they D was best we've seen from the Gophers over that time.


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That's what GWG does...pivots and/or uses qualifiers to continue to be "right" in his world. See PE's post #66 about MSU as an example...
 

That's what GWG does...pivots and/or uses qualifiers to continue to be "right" in his world. See PE's post #66 about MSU as an example...

Yep, and now GWG is nowhere to be found, because there isn't any way for him to pivot and change qualifiers to be right in this discussion.
 

Yep, and now GWG is nowhere to be found, because there isn't any way for him to pivot and change qualifiers to be right in this discussion.

tumblr_inline_nltz3tCmfd1tr5v0b.gif
 

Can stop this bickering and can everyone agree we need to bring back Brian Anderson #BBBA
 


BB was the only one with the courage to answer. Everyone else doesn't want to address it...

I haven't been in on the spats in this thread, but I'll take a crack at this. "Satisfied" is a difficult word for it. But I was happy with the direction and where Kill was taking us. The past four years we won 8, 8, 5, 9. One win away from a Big Ten championship game one of those years. Good defenses, in every game. A win in a nice bowl game. The program was in the best shape it's been in since the 1970s.

Kill never got the offense going. But I believe at Minnesota we need coaching stability to build slowly over the long term. I don't think there's a coach who's going to come in here and win a championship in four years. Fleck has talked about needing stability, too, and has noted our five coaches in 10 years or something. We'll see if Fleck brings that stability. I'm not betting my paycheck on it.

Claeys added to that stability, although I was never convinced he was head coaching material. I wouldn't have fired him after last season, but I'm not heartbroken. But I think if Kill was able to stay, the trend would've continued upward, albeit slowly. For better or worse, the stability monitor is reset to zero.
 

Yep, and now GWG is nowhere to be found, because there isn't any way for him to pivot and change qualifiers to be right in this discussion.

Nowhere to be found because I actually work during the day? Pivot and change what? Your hot take in this thread is that the last 5 years of defense was the 'best in 50 years'? Wow way to go out on a limb there, and that's still something I never disputed.

I posted nothing but facts in this thread and asked you a legitimate question in post #67, which you conveniently ignored. Who cares if an average B1G defense is the 'best we've had in 50 years'? That defense still blew a number of 4th quarter leads and resulted in Kill and Claeys having a losing B1G record.

Here's another good post you've ignored:

I actually took some time to do the math (average points and yards per game-1st 6 games):

Year....Yards/Game.....Points/Game
2016...........357............21
2017...........335............19

Sorry this doesn't fit your agenda. Your post may be a Hall of Fame Worst Post Ever (the HFWPE)

I'll add more facts.
2016 defensive S&P ranking: 23
2017 defensive S&P ranking: 25

A whole two spots lower but still in the top 25.

The defense has been just as good so far this year as it was last year. That's with much younger players, a depleted defensive backfield, and LBs playing DE. Maybe this coaching staff is actually better, and will produce a better than average B1G defenses when the talent is upgraded.

Any claim that supports that the defense can't and won't be better over the next several years are completely baseless.
 


Nowhere to be found because I actually work during the day? Pivot and change what? Your hot take in this thread is that the last 5 years of defense was the 'best in 50 years'? Wow way to go out on a limb there, and that's still something I never disputed.

I posted nothing but facts in this thread and asked you a legitimate question in post #67, which you conveniently ignored. Who cares if an average B1G defense is the 'best we've had in 50 years'? That defense still blew a number of 4th quarter leads and resulted in Kill and Claeys having a losing B1G record.

Here's another good post you've ignored:



I'll add more facts.
2016 defensive S&P ranking: 23
2017 defensive S&P ranking: 25

A whole two spots lower but still in the top 25.

The defense has been just as good so far this year as it was last year. That's with much younger players, a depleted defensive backfield, and LBs playing DE. Maybe this coaching staff is actually better, and will produce a better than average B1G defenses when the talent is upgraded.

Any claim that supports that the defense can't and won't be better over the next several years are completely baseless.

Yes you have disputed it. Every post you have made since has been to compare and knock down what was accomplished in those years.
I said the D was the best we've seen around here in a long time, your reply - nope D of 1999 was better.
So I reply it the best we've seen from Gophers - your reply - nope they were middling in the conference and mediocre at best.
So I reply when comparing to Gopher D in the last 50 they had best D's we've seen - your reply nope, they blew leads, and their S&P isn't any better than this year.

All throughout this whole discussion, I have maintained that they were not perfect and they did not always get the job done, but in the past 5 years they have been consistent and good compared to what we have seen from Gopher D's by previous staffs.

Now your making claims that I or others are saying our D can't and won't get better, when that has never been brought up. Again with the pivot and change.
The D this year in the first 3 games was outstanding. They have not been outstanding or even middling the past 3. Part of that is due to personnel, because of injury and inexperience at some positions. Part of it is also due to coaching, which last year, especially early in the year we lost at PSU in part because of coaching. The difference in all of this is there are some on here that can praise and be critical of the current staff and can also praise and be critical of the old staff, while others do everything they can to make sure that any critical comments about current staff are shot down immediately and then do everything they can to tear down any good that was accomplished by the previous staff.

Keep in mind also that the S&P rank for 2017 is only for half a season. Lets examine the 17 season when it is over. If they maintain that top 25 rank for the rest of the year, I will be glad, because that means we will be in quite a few games yet and will come on here and say you were correct GWG, this D is as good as what we have produced the past 5 years. Will you make the same proclamation, the other way if they don't?
 

Since my last petition about Croft worked maybe this would work as well. Our DC is nothing compared to when Jay was here. Time to rally together and get our Elite defense back. If he was here still we wouldn't have depth issues.

Sawvel wouldn't have overcome these injuries either.
 




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