Burning Red Shirts

LakerFan

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
1,738
Reaction score
382
Points
83
I'm all for burning redshirts on whoever can help right now. It's not that I don't want to protect the future or that I'm completely win now mentality, but we are hovering on the precipice of not making a bowl game right now and that means that you lose those extra practices and extra developmental time with all the players that will return and be the foundation for the next few years.

IMO our biggest pool of talent lies in the 2016 class, those kids have 2-3 years remaining in the program. So burning a few 2017 redshirts to me is preferable to wasting the opportunity to spend more time developing the returners and prepping them for 2018.

Could be you burn those red shirts and don't become bowl elligible anyway, but the risk right now of ending up 5-7 if we don't pull out all the stops and then wishing we had seems high.
 

I'm not sure where the sixth win comes anymore. Illinois, maybe Nebraska. Still leaves us at five that's why we really needed those last two can't lose to inferior opponents
 

I'm all for burning redshirts on whoever can help right now. It's not that I don't want to protect the future or that I'm completely win now mentality, but we are hovering on the precipice of not making a bowl game right now and that means that you lose those extra practices and extra developmental time with all the players that will return and be the foundation for the next few years.

IMO our biggest pool of talent lies in the 2016 class, those kids have 2-3 years remaining in the program. So burning a few 2017 redshirts to me is preferable to wasting the opportunity to spend more time developing the returners and prepping them for 2018.

Could be you burn those red shirts and don't become bowl elligible anyway, but the risk right now of ending up 5-7 if we don't pull out all the stops and then wishing we had seems high.

Elite culture does not burn rs even to win a game or two.
 

I thought this thread was an anti-Ohio St./Wisconsin/Nebraska apparel thing. I'll move on.
 

Just curious, which freshmen is Fleck not playing that would definitely be helping us right now?

And if they should be playing, does it mean that we aren't as deep as many said when predicting 9 wins? I'll hang up and listen.
 



Most of Fleck's red shirts are MAC type recruits. They probably would not make much difference in Big Ten games.
 

Just curious, which freshmen is Fleck not playing that would definitely be helping us right now?

And if they should be playing, does it mean that we aren't as deep as many said when predicting 9 wins? I'll hang up and listen.

Any CB. Fleck said he's burning another redshirt this week and I hope it's at cornerback. Can't have someone who is not 100% starting at corner.
 

I couldn't disagree more with the notion about sacrificing the future by burning red shirts. If Fleck can't bring in a more talented group of recruits 2, 3, 4 etc years from now than he did in one month, well, if that's the case, it's obvious he would be in over his head.

If they are better than what's currently on the field, you play them!
 



Just curious, which freshmen is Fleck not playing that would definitely be helping us right now?

And if they should be playing, does it mean that we aren't as deep as many said when predicting 9 wins? I'll hang up and listen.

It is REALLY hard to know with RS.

Coaches love to talk up RS that they're not playing. Jerry did about his WRs one year before a bowl game and .... nothing came of it the next year.

All I know is Morgan and one DL guy (I keep forgetting) PJ keeps saying are looking great and he is dead set against playing them this year. How good would they be on the field now? Who knows...
 



I couldn't disagree more with the notion about sacrificing the future by burning red shirts. If Fleck can't bring in a more talented group of recruits 2, 3, 4 etc years from now than he did in one month, well, if that's the case, it's obvious he would be in over his head.

If they are better than what's currently on the field, you play them!

That's the key statement. A lot of these guys probably have talent, but are they going to be as consistent as the guys who are starting right now? Hard to say. A lot of the players probably aren't "better" than what's on the field because of lack of experience.

That said, I'm OK with burning or not burning. The hope is in three/four years these guys will be buried on the depth charts anyway by the next class and class after it. But don't do it just to do it. As Johnnyboy said, at CB (or other positions of need) it makes all the sense in the world. But burning say Tanner Morgan's RS just to find out he's no better right now than Rhoda would be silly. Now, if he's legitimately passed Rhoda in practice, that too is a different story - then I'd say go for it.

To the OP's point, as much as coaches go on about how important those extra practices are, every year there are teams that miss Bowl games, then have good seasons the next year. MSU is ranked right now, for example.

I want to make a Bowl game, but it isn't the end all, be all it's made out to be...
 



I'm typically patient as a Gopher fan and usually prefer that we redshirt freshmen, particularly on the lines and at QB. However, I agree with OddStack that if Fleck is the recruiter everyone says he is, we'll only continue to bring in better players in the future.

Also, I'm tired of starting over at Ground Zero with coaching changes. We don't need to be 4-8 this year and next year. Since March we've been hearing Fleck talk about our lack of depth and how young we are in spots -- and that we'll be younger next year. I do not look forward to hearing the same thing about youth next year. If Estes and/or Harris will be counted on to play CB next season, why not get them in there now, when everybody else is hurt anyway? Rhoda will be gone; if Tanner Morgan is the next man up, we have seven games to get him experience. Let's remove the "our QB has no experience" and "our secondary has no experience" excuses for next year.

FYI ... on his podcast this week Burns said he's hearing they're pretty close to having Morgan take over the reins if Rhoda falters this weekend.
 

If a kid isn't ready to play, I'd prefer to not play him.

I don't like the phrase "burning red shirts". It's more like "folding up the red-shirt and putting it away, and maybe we can use it some other year".
 

Fleck has been in my doghouse since Purdue. I still cannot come to terms with seeing Coney Durr getting smoked on that crossing route. They don't see him hobble around in practice? No contingency plan if Kiondre or Shenault gets hurt?

The staff was already on thin ice after the Maryland fiasco. So far the staff has been a day late and a dollar short with their adjustments. Run inside 50 times for 80 yards vs Maryland. Face criticism for that so mix up the running attack to better success vs Purdue. Play a hobbled player rather than play a freshman vs Purdue, then state after the game no more red shirts. Tuesday says might have to burn more red shirts.

He'll have a chance to totally redeem himself although it's probably not going to happen Saturday.

Besides, look at who is coming back next year:
Craighton coming off an ACL.
Kiondre no official word but looked like a knee.
Durr looks like he either needs a clean up or may not make it all the way back.
Shenault is healthy.
Williamson - do we know anything about him?

Might as well get some young guys some game experience. This 5 year down the road talk is, to me, insane when we're at real risk of missing a bowl and losing all kinds of momentum. A bird in the hand...
 

I'm not sure where the sixth win comes anymore. Illinois, maybe Nebraska. Still leaves us at five that's why we really needed those last two can't lose to inferior opponents

According to Vegas, only Maryland was inferior. We actually were supposed to lose to OSU according to odds makers.
 

Players that can help them win should be playing. Period.

I prefer to look at the RS issue from the back end; just how often is it that when a player is at the end of his 4 years (no RS year taken), that we look back and wish like hell he had one more year? Looking at this year's SR starters that will be gone next year without having taken a RS year, I basically see WR Eric Carter, DT Richardson, and LB Celestin. Richardson was an impact player as a Freshman, that made sense. Carter is solid, but I don't know that anyone will be screaming we wish we had him for that 5th year; maybe Celestin you could make a case for but if I recall, he played some solid special teams minutes as a FR (but I could be wrong about that?).

At any rate, if they can make the team better at all, they should play. 4 years from now is a long time to worry about how they will help the team. Also a factor, some guys mature at different rates. Some NEED the RS year to improve in order to help out and on the flip side, some players do NOT improve that much over the course of their 4 years. So they should RS now so we have them for a mediocre 5th year?
 

just how often is it that when a player is at the end of his 4 years (no RS year taken), that we look back and wish like hell he had one more year?

A lot, actually:

2016 - Hank Ekpe, Jalen Myrick, Drew Wolitarsky (How much would these guys be helping us right now?)
2015 - Scott Ekpe, Antonio Johnson, Alex Keith, K.J. Maye, Eric Murray, Lincoln Plsek, Damarius Travis (Would we have won a Big Ten division title in 2016 with all of these guys as 5th-year seniors?)
2014 - Michael Amaefula, David Cobb, Drew Goodger, Marcus Jones, Grayson Levine, Tommy Olson, Cedric Thompson, Derrick Wells (Do we win 6 in 2015 and not have people bitch about academically qualifying for a bowl game?)
2013 - Ra'Shede Hageman, Aaron Hill, Donnell Kirkwood, James Manuel, Ed Olson, Brock Vereen (Again, do we win a Big Ten division title in 2014 with all of these guys as 5th-year seniors? We were a half against Wisconsin away from doing so.)
2012 - Michael Carter, Keanon Cooper, Ryan Grant, MarQueis Gray, D.L. Wilhite

I could keep going, but I've made my point. When you're trying to establish a consistently competitive team, nothing will do it like having a bunch of 22- and 23-year-olds at the top of the depth chart every year. We haven't had that, because we keep mortgaging the future for the present, and the cycle continues. I've had a lot of beef with the way Fleck is doing many things, but one thing I unequivocally applaud him for is trying to keep as many redshirts on as possible. We will be consistently competing for Big Ten titles beginning in 4-5 years if he manages to redshirt the overwhelming majority of freshmen each year.
 

I thought Kiondre looked like a hammy the way he grabbed it and the way he slid into the injury.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

A lot, actually:

2016 - Hank Ekpe, Jalen Myrick, Drew Wolitarsky (How much would these guys be helping us right now?)
2015 - Scott Ekpe, Antonio Johnson, Alex Keith, K.J. Maye, Eric Murray, Lincoln Plsek, Damarius Travis (Would we have won a Big Ten division title in 2016 with all of these guys as 5th-year seniors?)
2014 - Michael Amaefula, David Cobb, Drew Goodger, Marcus Jones, Grayson Levine, Tommy Olson, Cedric Thompson, Derrick Wells (Do we win 6 in 2015 and not have people bitch about academically qualifying for a bowl game?)
2013 - Ra'Shede Hageman, Aaron Hill, Donnell Kirkwood, James Manuel, Ed Olson, Brock Vereen (Again, do we win a Big Ten division title in 2014 with all of these guys as 5th-year seniors? We were a half against Wisconsin away from doing so.)
2012 - Michael Carter, Keanon Cooper, Ryan Grant, MarQueis Gray, D.L. Wilhite

I could keep going, but I've made my point. When you're trying to establish a consistently competitive team, nothing will do it like having a bunch of 22- and 23-year-olds at the top of the depth chart every year. We haven't had that, because we keep mortgaging the future for the present, and the cycle continues. I've had a lot of beef with the way Fleck is doing many things, but one thing I unequivocally applaud him for is trying to keep as many redshirts on as possible. We will be consistently competing for Big Ten titles beginning in 4-5 years if he manages to redshirt the overwhelming majority of freshmen each year.

I hope for a year soon where we can redshirt ALL the incoming freshman.
 

I hope for a year soon where we can redshirt ALL the incoming freshman.

I actually see the logic in playing a few guys right away. If you get to the point where you're redshirting a great majority of guys, you'll essentially have five classes (1. currently redshirting freshmen 2. redshirt/true freshmen 3. sophomores 4. juniors 5. seniors). With 5 classes and 85 scholarships, in a perfect world you will have 17 guys leaving the program every year (85/5 = 17). If you keep signing classes of ~25, accounting for attrition, if you play 3-5 guys as true freshmen every year, you should end up with around 17 in each class if things work out. That is far preferable to playing 8-10 guys as true freshmen like we've been doing for most years in the recent past.
 

Bottom line is play the best man available. Don't throw games/seasons away needlessly because we may possibly wish we had someone back. Elite players like Maxx will leave early. Red shirting good talent may not pay off. If the best man is already playing then it would be foolish.
 


The 2018 and 2019 signing classes could have some players in them that are going to be better than what we already have. I don't think holding them out just because we want to red shirt guys is a good idea. Most top end talent that would think of signing with us over some other programs is doing so because they want to play right away. If a player is the best one at a position they should be playing. If two players are relatively equal, play the one who's been around longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

The only red shirts that I see as necessary are the ÖL and DL as another year of growth usually means bigger, stronger, faster. The QB position really depends on the skill level and what he is asked to do. If it's like Rhoda, I wouldn't waste a red shirt in order to hand the ball to Smith and Brooks.
 

No such thing as "burning a redshirt". What a stupid, unimaginative, and ignorant term. Sorry, it just is. Hate it.

The players that NEED to play...play. Four years from now, a new recruit will take the spot on the roster. Roster balance/recruiting happens no matter if you play Freshman or not. It just slightly changes the positions you recruit from year to year.
 

PJ said at his news conference that Coney Durr is 80-85%. I like red-shirting players, but trotting someone out there who isn't 100% like Coney - to save a redshirt is irresponsible, unethical, and incredibly unelite. To put it nicely. I'll give PJ the benefit of the doubt on last week as it was unexpected, but if he pulls that crap this weekend you can officially call him a fraud.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

No such thing as "burning a redshirt". What a stupid, unimaginative, and ignorant term. Sorry, it just is. Hate it.

The players that NEED to play...play. Four years from now, a new recruit will take the spot on the roster. Roster balance/recruiting happens no matter if you play Freshman or not. It just slightly changes the positions you recruit from year to year.

Just because you don't like the term doesn't mean that there is "no such thing". There is most definitely "such thing".
 

<b>Just curious, which freshmen is Fleck not playing that would definitely be helping us right now?</b>

And if they should be playing, does it mean that we aren't as deep as many said when predicting 9 wins? I'll hang up and listen.

How about anyone who doesn't require us to play a kid coming off a torn ACL that still runs with a limp and at about 80% speed. Let's start there JG.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 




Top Bottom