Perspective and Fleck's plan moving forward

Ole

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So we're going to take a step back this year.
The assumption we as fans had was our offense, WRs, and QB would be upgraded by the new staff, and the running backs, OL, and defense would remain the same as last year or slightly upgrade/downgrade. That was a false theory.

The loss of Hardin, Buford, Travis, and depth at DE has downgraded our D from the start. The injuries at corner/safety have further degraded the depth, and the Cashman/Coughlin at DE experiment has been mixed thus far.

On offense we just don't have QB talent, WR experience, or OL depth/talent/experience/health to upgrade or even replicate what the coaches did at WMU, or even what we had last year. We now are down WRs 2,3,4 from injuries too.
Some perspective:
The roster holes are laid bare by the fact that this coaching staff is gearing up for the long term. Year zero, new culture, elite etc. Fleck is a program builder, he's a recruiter.
Sure throw in Croft to run and maybe things look somewhat better, then expect players to rebel against Fleck's culture and watch things degrade internally. Like they did when Claeys failed to lead on the sex scandal last year. No first year coach is going to let off the field bad behavior go undisciplined, not Kill, not Claeys.

Claeys and Kill were grinders, schemers, X's and O's were their specialty, they were up all night finding ways to gain an edge, but in the end they failed to build program depth because they depended on JUCO players too much, and frankly Limergrover's lack of recruiting talent did everyone a disservice, our QB, WR, and OL depth and talent is pretty awful. Especially OL.

Here's how I see this going:
We flounder this year, go 5-7 or 6-6.
Meanwhile Fleck will redshirt his guys from the past class, and bring in a lot of solid talent in the 2018 class.
We debut next year with a freshman at QB, lots of young WR talent, a year more seasoned at OL, but still probably start freshmen, and a restocked but young defense.
We likely struggle again, the natives get restless, but the team shows more signs of explosiveness and moments of impressive athleticism.
Fleck again brings in a good, possibly great class in 2019, we roll into that next season with a fuller squad of Flecks guys and then we will see what he can do as a coach. I bet we break through in 2020, or 2021 with a west title, just a feeling that this time is different. We're due as a program.

It sucks the momentum from coach Kill seems to have been blunted, but the hiring of Claeys and the subsequent turmoil and recruiting malaise, combined with poor recruiting at key spots going back awhile puts us here.
Mason won 10, Brew won 8, Kill won 8, Claeys won 9, Fleck will get us back there too, it's just not going to happen right away like we all wanted. Fleck has a chance to elevate past those coaches though, which is what it's all about anyway.

Enjoy the ride, hope for a few rivalry upset wins, and have fun watching the young talent develop.
Ski u mah, Go gophers!
 

Good post Ole. I hope you are right. Tough to be rational this morning, but this helps.


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So we're going to take a step back this year.
The assumption we as fans had was our offense, WRs, and QB would be upgraded by the new staff, and the running backs, OL, and defense would remain the same as last year or slightly upgrade/downgrade. That was a false theory.

The loss of Hardin, Buford, Travis, and depth at DE has downgraded our D from the start. The injuries at corner/safety have further degraded the depth, and the Cashman/Coughlin at DE experiment has been mixed thus far.

On offense we just don't have QB talent, WR experience, or OL depth/talent/experience/health to upgrade or even replicate what the coaches did at WMU, or even what we had last year. We now are down WRs 2,3,4 from injuries too.
Some perspective:
The roster holes are laid bare by the fact that this coaching staff is gearing up for the long term. Year zero, new culture, elite etc. Fleck is a program builder, he's a recruiter.
Sure throw in Croft to run and maybe things look somewhat better, then expect players to rebel against Fleck's culture and watch things degrade internally. Like they did when Claeys failed to lead on the sex scandal last year. No first year coach is going to let off the field bad behavior go undisciplined, not Kill, not Claeys.

Claeys and Kill were grinders, schemers, X's and O's were their specialty, they were up all night finding ways to gain an edge, but in the end they failed to build program depth because they depended on JUCO players too much, and frankly Limergrover's lack of recruiting talent did everyone a disservice, our QB, WR, and OL depth and talent is pretty awful. Especially OL.

Here's how I see this going:
We flounder this year, go 5-7 or 6-6.
Meanwhile Fleck will redshirt his guys from the past class, and bring in a lot of solid talent in the 2018 class.
We debut next year with a freshman at QB, lots of young WR talent, a year more seasoned at OL, but still probably start freshmen, and a restocked but young defense.
We likely struggle again, the natives get restless, but the team shows more signs of explosiveness and moments of impressive athleticism.
Fleck again brings in a good, possibly great class in 2019, we roll into that next season with a fuller squad of Flecks guys and then we will see what he can do as a coach. I bet we break through in 2020, or 2021 with a west title, just a feeling that this time is different. We're due as a program.

It sucks the momentum from coach Kill seems to have been blunted, but the hiring of Claeys and the subsequent turmoil and recruiting malaise, combined with poor recruiting at key spots going back awhile puts us here.
Mason won 10, Brew won 8, Kill won 8, Claeys won 9, Fleck will get us back there too, it's just not going to happen right away like we all wanted. Fleck has a chance to elevate past those coaches though, which is what it's all about anyway.

Enjoy the ride, hope for a few rivalry upset wins, and have fun watching the young talent develop.
Ski u mah, Go gophers!

My vote for most rational, logical, least emotional post of the year. Extremely well said.


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I feel the frustration as well as anyone but as painful as it is we are starting over once again with a new regime and have to give it some time. I have given every coach that has come here the benefit of the doubt, yes even Brewster. Fans are frustrated with a program, when it seems to be moving in the right dir
ection, derails for whatever reason.
 

So we're going to take a step back this year.
The assumption we as fans had was our offense, WRs, and QB would be upgraded by the new staff, and the running backs, OL, and defense would remain the same as last year or slightly upgrade/downgrade. That was a false theory.

The loss of Hardin, Buford, Travis, and depth at DE has downgraded our D from the start. The injuries at corner/safety have further degraded the depth, and the Cashman/Coughlin at DE experiment has been mixed thus far.

On offense we just don't have QB talent, WR experience, or OL depth/talent/experience/health to upgrade or even replicate what the coaches did at WMU, or even what we had last year. We now are down WRs 2,3,4 from injuries too.
Some perspective:
The roster holes are laid bare by the fact that this coaching staff is gearing up for the long term. Year zero, new culture, elite etc. Fleck is a program builder, he's a recruiter.
Sure throw in Croft to run and maybe things look somewhat better, then expect players to rebel against Fleck's culture and watch things degrade internally. Like they did when Claeys failed to lead on the sex scandal last year. No first year coach is going to let off the field bad behavior go undisciplined, not Kill, not Claeys.

Claeys and Kill were grinders, schemers, X's and O's were their specialty, they were up all night finding ways to gain an edge, but in the end they failed to build program depth because they depended on JUCO players too much, and frankly Limergrover's lack of recruiting talent did everyone a disservice, our QB, WR, and OL depth and talent is pretty awful. Especially OL.

Here's how I see this going:
We flounder this year, go 5-7 or 6-6.
Meanwhile Fleck will redshirt his guys from the past class, and bring in a lot of solid talent in the 2018 class.
We debut next year with a freshman at QB, lots of young WR talent, a year more seasoned at OL, but still probably start freshmen, and a restocked but young defense.
We likely struggle again, the natives get restless, but the team shows more signs of explosiveness and moments of impressive athleticism.
Fleck again brings in a good, possibly great class in 2019, we roll into that next season with a fuller squad of Flecks guys and then we will see what he can do as a coach. I bet we break through in 2020, or 2021 with a west title, just a feeling that this time is different. We're due as a program.

It sucks the momentum from coach Kill seems to have been blunted, but the hiring of Claeys and the subsequent turmoil and recruiting malaise, combined with poor recruiting at key spots going back awhile puts us here.
Mason won 10, Brew won 8, Kill won 8, Claeys won 9, Fleck will get us back there too, it's just not going to happen right away like we all wanted. Fleck has a chance to elevate past those coaches though, which is what it's all about anyway.

Enjoy the ride, hope for a few rivalry upset wins, and have fun watching the young talent develop.
Ski u mah, Go gophers!

Excellent post: Fleck has much discipline as to what he is trying to do for the long haul. He has always said that this year was going to be tough and next year better but then in year 3 doing what a peak year is normally has been and maybe more. He has gotten tough on a couple players (suspended) and wants to change the way things are happening around here. If everyone is not in then you have a problem. See Souhan's article today about cancer with one player when he was talking about fantasy sports. Normally I don't read his articles but I read it out of curiosity. I don't like losing and get put off by the same old thing. However I want whats best in the long haul and not a short term fix that will actually hinder us down the road.
 


Claeys and Kill were grinders, schemers, X's and O's were their specialty, they were up all night finding ways to gain an edge, but in the end they failed to build program depth because they depended on JUCO players too much, and frankly Limergrover's lack of recruiting talent did everyone a disservice, our QB, WR, and OL depth and talent is pretty awful. Especially OL.

Nice to throw a bunch of young (and talented) MN guys under the bus. I hate to break it to you but the O linemen from 2017 and 2018 classes aren't highly rated. This staff will have to coach 'em up if we are to compete in the trenches anytime before 2021 or so. Stop with the excuses. Help the line out with scheme.
 



Excellent post: Fleck has much discipline as to what he is trying to do for the long haul. He has always said that this year was going to be tough and next year better but then in year 3 doing what a peak year is normally has been and maybe more. He has gotten tough on a couple players (suspended) and wants to change the way things are happening around here. If everyone is not in then you have a problem. See Souhan's article today about cancer with one player when he was talking about fantasy sports. Normally I don't read his articles but I read it out of curiosity. I don't like losing and get put off by the same old thing. However I want whats best in the long haul and not a short term fix that will actually hinder us down the road.

What effect does not playing to win have on a team? Just curious.
 

To Summarize Ole's Post: Fleck has a plan, and I believe the plan will work.

My Response - Fleck has a plan, but I'm not sure the plan will work. Fleck's plan, and Ole's thesis, depends 100% on Fleck being able to recruit a higher level of players. If he can do that, then the plan has a chance to work. If Fleck cannot recruit a higher level of players, and his coaches cannot get players to play above their recruiting level, then it gets ugly.

Most of the current players on the roster were recruited to play in a different system. Fleck is trying to shoehorn those people into a new system that they might not be suited for. He has to take some of the responsibility for that.

I thought this was an 8-win team. But, I was wrong about one thing - I was basing that opinion on how the players performed under the previous system. I underestimated how much of a struggle it would be to transition to a different system and different coaches.

Again - Fleck is a recruiter and motivator - not an X's and O's guy. He is dependent on his coaches. When assessing the ability to "coach up" the players, at this point, I would take the previous staff over the current staff in terms of X's and O's, and getting the most out of the players - while understanding the players were recruited for the previous system, not the new system.

And I simply do not think the culture stuff is as important as some of you.
 

Kill/Claeys lost the last 2 games. Why not blame them, all the other problems with the program are their fault as well. Their lack of coaching/leadership led them to 9 wins last year. Forget all the bull****, take responsibility, and Coach your players as hard as you self promote!!
 

Claeys and Kill were grinders, schemers, X's and O's were their specialty, they were up all night finding ways to gain an edge, but in the end they failed to build program depth because they depended on JUCO players too much, and frankly Limergrover's lack of recruiting talent did everyone a disservice, our QB, WR, and OL depth and talent is pretty awful. Especially OL.

Nice to throw a bunch of young (and talented) MN guys under the bus. I hate to break it to you but the O linemen from 2017 and 2018 classes aren't highly rated. This staff will have to coach 'em up if we are to compete in the trenches anytime before 2021 or so. Stop with the excuses. Help the line out with scheme.

The offensive line was terrible last year too. We haven't had an OL drafted since Mason left. That's not a talent issue?

Flecks OL recruits are not highly rated in this class but he's looking for more athletic lineman to develop. He had a 3* and a 2* OL get drafted in the last two years. Mock drafts have Chukwuma Okorafor going as high as the middle of the 1st round in next year's draft. He was a mid 3*.

Fleck and staff have a proven track record of coaching up offensive lineman.
 



To Summarize Ole's Post: Fleck has a plan, and I believe the plan will work.

My Response - Fleck has a plan, but I'm not sure the plan will work. Fleck's plan, and Ole's thesis, depends 100% on Fleck being able to recruit a higher level of players. If he can do that, then the plan has a chance to work. If Fleck cannot recruit a higher level of players, and his coaches cannot get players to play above their recruiting level, then it gets ugly.

Most of the current players on the roster were recruited to play in a different system. Fleck is trying to shoehorn those people into a new system that they might not be suited for. He has to take some of the responsibility for that.

I thought this was an 8-win team. But, I was wrong about one thing - I was basing that opinion on how the players performed under the previous system. I underestimated how much of a struggle it would be to transition to a different system and different coaches.

Again - Fleck is a recruiter and motivator - not an X's and O's guy. He is dependent on his coaches. When assessing the ability to "coach up" the players, at this point, I would take the previous staff over the current staff in terms of X's and O's, and getting the most out of the players - while understanding the players were recruited for the previous system, not the new system.

And I simply do not think the culture stuff is as important as some of you.

Really, really hope Ole's correct. Man, I need a W to drive Frank Lauterbur out of my head.
 

The offensive line was terrible last year too. We haven't had an OL drafted since Mason left. That's not a talent issue?

Flecks OL recruits are not highly rated in this class but he's looking for more athletic lineman to develop. He had a 3* and a 2* OL get drafted in the last two years. Mock drafts have Chukwuma Okorafor going as high as the middle of the 1st round in next year's draft. He was a mid 3*.

Fleck and staff have a proven track record of coaching up offensive lineman.

So you agree recruit rankings are not necessarily all that. Do you agree we have no talent on the roster?
 

My vote for most rational, logical, least emotional post of the year. Extremely well said.


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I don't know who you are penciling for another 2-3 wins this year, but that seems like a stretch at this point. If we can do it, I agree that we could possibly have a decent recruiting class. Just as likely though, is we get 0 or 1 win and get rolled by 30+ a couple of times. If that happens, I don't think we are going to have a good recruiting class as the stench of the program will be unbearable. So my question to you is: what is Fleck's ceiling if recruiting is on par with Kill? I would like to see the focus on scheme and coaching up what you have vs. wishful thinking about recruiting. Even if Fleck is God's gift to recruiting, we will never out-recruit UM, tOSU, PSU, WI, Nebraska, etc - so at the end of the day, we need something other than just recruiting to build a Big Ten contender.
 

So you agree recruit rankings are not necessarily all that. Do you agree we have no talent on the roster?

Rankings do matter. It's simple math. The more highly rated recruits you have, the better chance you have to win. That's all it is.

Lowly rated recruits develop into NFL'ers, and highly rated recruits bust all the time. Fleck not only out recruited the rest of the MAC, but he developed plenty of lower rated guys into great players. He's proven he can do both and I have no doubt he'll do both here.
 

Rankings do matter. It's simple math. The more highly rated recruits you have, the better chance you have to win. That's all it is.

Lowly rated recruits develop into NFL'ers, and highly rated recruits bust all the time. Fleck not only out recruited the rest of the MAC, but he developed plenty of lower rated guys into great players. He's proven he can do both and I have no doubt he'll do both here.

Yes, I've always agreed that higher ranked players in aggregate give a higher chance of success (with many exceptions both ways based on coaching) but we aren't getting higher ranked players than our rivals thus far.

It is promising his staff has an eye for OL talent. Did they have any defensive players drafted?
 

Yes, I've always agreed that higher ranked players in aggregate give a higher chance of success (with many exceptions both ways based on coaching) but we aren't getting higher ranked players than our rivals thus far.

It is promising his staff has an eye for OL talent. Did they have any defensive players drafted?

Keion Adams was a OLB/DE selected in the 7th round by the Steelers. He was an unrated recruit.

Darius Phillips is a SR CB this year. He's getting 1st or 2nd round hype. Was a 2* recruit.
 


To Summarize Ole's Post: Fleck has a plan, and I believe the plan will work.

My Response - Fleck has a plan, but I'm not sure the plan will work. Fleck's plan, and Ole's thesis, depends 100% on Fleck being able to recruit a higher level of players. If he can do that, then the plan has a chance to work. If Fleck cannot recruit a higher level of players, and his coaches cannot get players to play above their recruiting level, then it gets ugly.

Most of the current players on the roster were recruited to play in a different system. Fleck is trying to shoehorn those people into a new system that they might not be suited for. He has to take some of the responsibility for that.

I thought this was an 8-win team. But, I was wrong about one thing - I was basing that opinion on how the players performed under the previous system. I underestimated how much of a struggle it would be to transition to a different system and different coaches.

Again - Fleck is a recruiter and motivator - not an X's and O's guy. He is dependent on his coaches. When assessing the ability to "coach up" the players, at this point, I would take the previous staff over the current staff in terms of X's and O's, and getting the most out of the players - while understanding the players were recruited for the previous system, not the new system.

And I simply do not think the culture stuff is as important as some of you.

I agree with almost all of your assessment.

As for the bold parts...Other than a few additional plays this week, I'm not seeing this new offensive system on the field. What I've seen looks extremely similar to the last 5 years. That's what is disappointing...they're not running a much different offense (more conservative at times) at this point.
 

I agree with almost all of your assessment.

As for the bold parts...Other than a few additional plays this week, I'm not seeing this new offensive system on the field. What I've seen looks extremely similar to the last 5 years. That's what is disappointing...they're not running a much different offense (more conservative at times) at this point.

What are you watching? Literally everything has chanced.
Our offense looks like Fleck took a dump all over Jay Johnson's Mona Lisa and we ended up with Guernica.

We've never had a Rafael on offense, but at least it wasn't something a 6 year-old could draw up.

We have fewer formations, we run fewer plays from those formations, we have absolutely no deception in our offense at all, I'm probably wrong about this next part, but I'm not recalling anything other than a single back set so far, we're trying to run option plays with a QB that literally has no idea how to read the option. I'm not joking when I said that I've seen high schools run more complex offenses than we are. That's not okay.
 

FYI, Basement Brew only won 7 in his best year.
 

What are you watching? Literally everything has chanced.
Our offense looks like Fleck took a dump all over Jay Johnson's Mona Lisa and we ended up with Guernica.

We've never had a Rafael on offense, but at least it wasn't something a 6 year-old could draw up.
I'd have to side with PMWinSTP, I don't see much difference in the offense. Lots of RUTM, not much imagination. Maybe a bit more throwing, but only because Leidner is gone. Not a huge change.
 

I'd have to side with PMWinSTP, I don't see much difference in the offense. Lots of RUTM, not much imagination. Maybe a bit more throwing, but only because Leidner is gone. Not a huge change.

RUTM is not a scheme or a play. Literally if all you're comparing is where our running back tries to run then I can see why none of you are freaking out the way I am about our offense.
That's fine, but don't get pissy at me for saying that our entire scheme sucks.

Just a point from yesterday, on Shannon Brooks' long run, we pulled a tight end across the middle to pick up their DE on the far side. We hadn't pulled a tight end all season and the first time we did, we broke a 26 yard run right up the middle. Great, I was happy.

THEN instead of putting that formation in and doing something different, they run the EXACT SAME ****ING PLAY with goddamn Rodney Smith, the linebacker jumps the hole and we get stuffed for a one yard gain.

That's mother****ing infuriating. I haven't played football in 7 years and I would have known to find that gap. Our D1 college coaches don't think that their linebackers could figure that out after getting burned by it the first time?
 

What are you watching? Literally everything has chanced.
Our offense looks like Fleck took a dump all over Jay Johnson's Mona Lisa and we ended up with Guernica.

We've never had a Rafael on offense, but at least it wasn't something a 6 year-old could draw up.

That is my point. I've posted multiple times the offense has been very basic/vanilla/conservative, more so than Kill. RUTM.
 

Do you agree we have little talent at OL?

I think we have little talent across the entire offense outside of RB. Its been that way for the majority of the Kill era. The only decent offensive team we had was 2014, which is why we were one half away from winning the West.
 

RUTM is not a scheme or a play. Literally if all you're comparing is where our running back tries to run then I can see why none of you are freaking out the way I am about our offense.
That's fine, but don't get pissy at me for saying that our entire scheme sucks.
I'm actually fine with the scheme, they just need better players executing that scheme. Rhoda does not fit that scheme at all. The OL has been a problem for awhile, I trust Fleck and Warriner to help turn that around.
 

I think we have little talent across the entire offense outside of RB. Its been that way for the majority of the Kill era. The only decent offensive team we had was 2014, which is why we were one half away from winning the West.

And Tight End, we have good tight ends.
 

RUTM is not a scheme or a play. Literally if all you're comparing is where our running back tries to run then I can see why none of you are freaking out the way I am about our offense.
That's fine, but don't get pissy at me for saying that our entire scheme sucks.

Just a point from yesterday, on Shannon Brooks' long run, we pulled a tight end across the middle to pick up their DE on the far side. We hadn't pulled a tight end all season and the first time we did, we broke a 26 yard run right up the middle. Great, I was happy.

THEN instead of putting that formation in and doing something different, they run the EXACT SAME ****ING PLAY with goddamn Rodney Smith, the linebacker jumps the hole and we get stuffed for a one yard gain.

That's mother****ing infuriating. I haven't played football in 7 years and I would have known to find that gap. Our D1 college coaches don't think that their linebackers could figure that out after getting burned by it the first time?

+1
 




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