Perspective and Fleck's plan moving forward

Gophers keep running it up the middle because they are trying to run zone reads with only one viable option. Scheme fits are pretty awful right now. I want them to run Rodney Smith out there at QB and run zone reads with Brooks in a two-man game. Only half joking.
 

I think we have little talent across the entire offense outside of RB. Its been that way for the majority of the Kill era. The only decent offensive team we had was 2014, which is why we were one half away from winning the West.

So, the earliest we can be competitive then (year)?
 

So, the earliest we can be competing then (year)?

We can compete right now.
MSU is a winnable game, Fleck needs to get our guys on the field and ready to go, these guys are going to look right past us.
Fleck can win this game.
 

Even if Fleck is God's gift to recruiting, we will never out-recruit UM, tOSU, PSU, WI, Nebraska, etc - so at the end of the day, we need something other than just recruiting to build a Big Ten contender.

Underrated point. At Western, Fleck was playing a fair game relative to his MAC competition. For recruits, MAC schools all have roughly equivalent prestige, exposure, and facilities. Fleck was able to outwork and outsell everyone else when everyone was selling fungible options. Then his team got to the point where they had more talent than the other MAC schools and started to win all the games.

That's obviously not the case in the Big Ten. Wisconsin has basically been where we're trying to go for the past 20+ years and they still can't pull recruits rated like Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State can. There's never going to be a point in the foreseeable future where Minnesota plain outguns everyone on talent. There does have to be another way. Wisconsin seems to figure it out, and so does Iowa from time to time. It's doable.
 

We can compete right now.
MSU is a winnable game, Fleck needs to get our guys on the field and ready to go, these guys are going to look right past us.
Fleck can win this game.

I believe that, you believe that. I'm asking the guys who buy into the thesis we can't field a competitive team until we out recruit our Big Ten opponents which isn't happening at this time. I'm asking for an ETA on a competitive team that can be expected to beat Big Ten cellar dwellers, particularly when we win the turnover battle.
 


So we're going to take a step back this year.
The assumption we as fans had was our offense, WRs, and QB would be upgraded by the new staff, and the running backs, OL, and defense would remain the same as last year or slightly upgrade/downgrade. That was a false theory.

The loss of Hardin, Buford, Travis, and depth at DE has downgraded our D from the start. The injuries at corner/safety have further degraded the depth, and the Cashman/Coughlin at DE experiment has been mixed thus far.

On offense we just don't have QB talent, WR experience, or OL depth/talent/experience/health to upgrade or even replicate what the coaches did at WMU, or even what we had last year. We now are down WRs 2,3,4 from injuries too.
Some perspective:
The roster holes are laid bare by the fact that this coaching staff is gearing up for the long term. Year zero, new culture, elite etc. Fleck is a program builder, he's a recruiter.
Sure throw in Croft to run and maybe things look somewhat better, then expect players to rebel against Fleck's culture and watch things degrade internally. Like they did when Claeys failed to lead on the sex scandal last year. No first year coach is going to let off the field bad behavior go undisciplined, not Kill, not Claeys.

Claeys and Kill were grinders, schemers, X's and O's were their specialty, they were up all night finding ways to gain an edge, but in the end they failed to build program depth because they depended on JUCO players too much, and frankly Limergrover's lack of recruiting talent did everyone a disservice, our QB, WR, and OL depth and talent is pretty awful. Especially OL.

Here's how I see this going:
We flounder this year, go 5-7 or 6-6.
Meanwhile Fleck will redshirt his guys from the past class, and bring in a lot of solid talent in the 2018 class.
We debut next year with a freshman at QB, lots of young WR talent, a year more seasoned at OL, but still probably start freshmen, and a restocked but young defense.
We likely struggle again, the natives get restless, but the team shows more signs of explosiveness and moments of impressive athleticism.
Fleck again brings in a good, possibly great class in 2019, we roll into that next season with a fuller squad of Flecks guys and then we will see what he can do as a coach. I bet we break through in 2020, or 2021 with a west title, just a feeling that this time is different. We're due as a program.

It sucks the momentum from coach Kill seems to have been blunted, but the hiring of Claeys and the subsequent turmoil and recruiting malaise, combined with poor recruiting at key spots going back awhile puts us here.
Mason won 10, Brew won 8, Kill won 8, Claeys won 9, Fleck will get us back there too, it's just not going to happen right away like we all wanted. Fleck has a chance to elevate past those coaches though, which is what it's all about anyway.

Enjoy the ride, hope for a few rivalry upset wins, and have fun watching the young talent develop.
Ski u mah, Go gophers!

Ole, thanks for this post. It is refreshing compared to some of the vitriol on here. We all wanted this team to be as good or better than last year but that wasn't realistic. Those "fans" who thought we were winning 9-10 games simply don't understand. What Harbaugh did in his first year at Michigan hardly ever happens, and even when it did over there, where are he and the Wolverines today??? They are 1-4 against their top rivals since he's been there. My other favorite college team besides the Gophers is Georgia. We just went through a coaching change of our own. I'm not saying one fan base is better than the other, because we had Georgia fans who thought Kirby Smart was going to win the SEC in his first year too. The difference however is that the vast majority of Georgia fans knew and understood that, regardless of how well thought of or good Smart was, he was changing everything. I would have been fine last year with 6 wins because I understood that a new coach has to make changes to fit what he wants to do. That is exactly what happened and Georgia fans weren't calling Smart a disaster after 5 games. Some of you Gophers fans are a disgrace and embarrassing. To not realize that it could that PJ more than an abbreviated recruiting season, one spring practice and a full season to be successful is shortsighted, and that isn't the word I want to use for that group of Gopher fans. Please stop piling on and ripping PJ every chance you get! How does this help?? We have just hired one of the most well thought of young coaches, if not THE most well thought of coach, in the nation. We have not had a chance like this since we hired Holtz. Please give him a chance to do it his way.


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I'd have to side with PMWinSTP, I don't see much difference in the offense. Lots of RUTM, not much imagination. <b>Maybe a bit more throwing, but only because Leidner is gone. </b>Not a huge change.

Our R/P ratio YTD is 250/111. That is over 69% of our plays are run plays. I don't know what it was last year, but I can't imagine we are throwing more.


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Ole, thanks for this post. It is refreshing compared to some of the vitriol on here. We all wanted this team to be as good or better than last year but that wasn't realistic. Those "fans" who thought we were winning 9-10 games simply don't understand. What Harbaugh did in his first year at Michigan hardly ever happens, and even when it did over there, where are he and the Wolverines today??? They are 1-4 against their top rivals since he's been there. My other favorite college team besides the Gophers is Georgia. We just went through a coaching change of our own. I'm not saying one fan base is better than the other, because we had Georgia fans who thought Kirby Smart was going to win the SEC in his first year too. The difference however is that the vast majority of Georgia fans knew and understood that, regardless of how well thought of or good Smart was, he was changing everything. I would have been fine last year with 6 wins because I understood that a new coach has to make changes to fit what he wants to do. That is exactly what happened and Georgia fans weren't calling Smart a disaster after 5 games. Some of you Gophers fans are a disgrace and embarrassing. To not realize that it could that PJ more than an abbreviated recruiting season, one spring practice and a full season to be successful is shortsighted, and that isn't the word I want to use for that group of Gopher fans. Please stop piling on and ripping PJ every chance you get! How does this help?? We have just hired one of the most well thought of young coaches, if not THE most well thought of coach, in the nation. We have not had a chance like this since we hired Holtz. Please give him a chance to do it his way.


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Okay, here's what we're saying:
"Fleck is doing weird things with our people."
"Why is Fleck running dumbed down systems?"
"Every time Fleck takes responsibility for something he sandwiches it between two comments about our lack of talent."

What you're hearing:
"Fleck sucks and we need to fire him."
"We should have never fired Tracy Claeys."
"Our program is a disaster and always will be."

You're taking things personally that you shouldn't be taking personally.
I, personally, have a problem with Robb Smith trying to force his defense on a group of players that can't run it, that doesn't mean that I think that Robb Smitch is a bad DC.
This is a forum, people come here to talk about Gopher football, when there are things that are obviously wrong with Gopher football, people are going to point them out.
 




I'm not going to assign all the blame on the players or the prior staff if that's what you want. I see what I see, as well as everyone else around the country. MN is currently on a bad trajectory, or momentum track if you wish. Too early to write off the season as we will get some key defensive guys back (well, I hope) and the installation of the offense and defense and confidence and execution of younger guys on the two deep will hopefully improve.

Gary Anderson was a promising coach hired on at Wisconsin after a similar rise at Utah State and OSU fans were likely generally excited to get him after Riley left. Their negative momentum has been building despite admonitions from Anderson to "trust the process". It's safe to say the program is in full disarray this season and the team has now quit on Andersen. My fear, perhaps misplaced, is a bad season leads to average recruiting and the situation perpetuates and snowballs. I'd like to see some signs of improvement this season particularly after we get some secondary guys back. If Fleck can finish out a top half Big Ten recruiting class despite a 4-5 win season I'll be impressed.
 

Our offense looks like Fleck took a dump all over Jay Johnson's Mona Lisa and we ended up with Guernica.

So Fleck has taken an offense you equate with possibly the most recognizable work of art in history, and replaced it with arguably one of the top five masterpieces in history?

And all this time, I thought you believed this offense was ****.
 

Ask any player from his third year Western Michigan University team.....

WMU was a poor team when he arrived. I get the hope strategy but this is an apples and oranges comparison in a lot of ways.
 

What effect does not playing to win have on a team? Just curious.

Don't burn red shirts for starters. Secondly if someone is being moody, disruptive, doesn't go to class etc., that breeds to others and then you have a problem. That's why a couple of our guys more than likely were suspended. We all want to win but we have to do it right. I'm not interested in a band-aid approach that doesn't solve the ultimate problem.
 



Okay, here's what we're saying:
"Fleck is doing weird things with our people."
"Why is Fleck running dumbed down systems?"
"Every time Fleck takes responsibility for something he sandwiches it between two comments about our lack of talent."

What you're hearing:
"Fleck sucks and we need to fire him."
"We should have never fired Tracy Claeys."
"Our program is a disaster and always will be."

You're taking things personally that you shouldn't be taking personally.
I, personally, have a problem with Robb Smith trying to force his defense on a group of players that can't run it, that doesn't mean that I think that Robb Smitch is a bad DC.
This is a forum, people come here to talk about Gopher football, when there are things that are obviously wrong with Gopher football, people are going to point them out.

Some want this site to be all motherhood and apple pie. Otherwise you aren't a "real fan". Takes some getting used to.


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Don't burn red shirts for starters. Secondly if someone is being moody, disruptive, doesn't go to class etc., that breeds to others and then you have a problem. That's why a couple of our guys more than likely were suspended. We all want to win but we have to do it right. I'm not interested in a band-aid approach that doesn't solve the ultimate problem.

It's ok to play freshmen or even walk ons if they're capable. We ran out a scholarship CB that probably is capable of a 5.5 40 and can't cut.
 

I believe that, you believe that. I'm asking the guys who buy into the thesis we can't field a competitive team until we out recruit our Big Ten opponents which isn't happening at this time. I'm asking for an ETA on a competitive team that can be expected to beat Big Ten cellar dwellers, particularly when we win the turnover battle.

Have we not been competitive this year? The last two games were disappointing and could have been wins. I would still define a bowl team as competitive. I still think we can get to 6 wins this year and next.

When do I think we'll win 8 or more games and have a shot to win the west again? 2019/2020
 

So we're going to take a step back this year.
The assumption we as fans had was our offense, WRs, and QB would be upgraded by the new staff, and the running backs, OL, and defense would remain the same as last year or slightly upgrade/downgrade. That was a false theory.

The loss of Hardin, Buford, Travis, and depth at DE has downgraded our D from the start. The injuries at corner/safety have further degraded the depth, and the Cashman/Coughlin at DE experiment has been mixed thus far.

On offense we just don't have QB talent, WR experience, or OL depth/talent/experience/health to upgrade or even replicate what the coaches did at WMU, or even what we had last year. We now are down WRs 2,3,4 from injuries too.
Some perspective:
The roster holes are laid bare by the fact that this coaching staff is gearing up for the long term. Year zero, new culture, elite etc. Fleck is a program builder, he's a recruiter.
Sure throw in Croft to run and maybe things look somewhat better, then expect players to rebel against Fleck's culture and watch things degrade internally. Like they did when Claeys failed to lead on the sex scandal last year. No first year coach is going to let off the field bad behavior go undisciplined, not Kill, not Claeys.

Claeys and Kill were grinders, schemers, X's and O's were their specialty, they were up all night finding ways to gain an edge, but in the end they failed to build program depth because they depended on JUCO players too much, and frankly Limergrover's lack of recruiting talent did everyone a disservice, our QB, WR, and OL depth and talent is pretty awful. Especially OL.

Here's how I see this going:
We flounder this year, go 5-7 or 6-6.
Meanwhile Fleck will redshirt his guys from the past class, and bring in a lot of solid talent in the 2018 class.
We debut next year with a freshman at QB, lots of young WR talent, a year more seasoned at OL, but still probably start freshmen, and a restocked but young defense.
We likely struggle again, the natives get restless, but the team shows more signs of explosiveness and moments of impressive athleticism.
Fleck again brings in a good, possibly great class in 2019, we roll into that next season with a fuller squad of Flecks guys and then we will see what he can do as a coach. I bet we break through in 2020, or 2021 with a west title, just a feeling that this time is different. We're due as a program.

It sucks the momentum from coach Kill seems to have been blunted, but the hiring of Claeys and the subsequent turmoil and recruiting malaise, combined with poor recruiting at key spots going back awhile puts us here.
Mason won 10, Brew won 8, Kill won 8, Claeys won 9, Fleck will get us back there too, it's just not going to happen right away like we all wanted. Fleck has a chance to elevate past those coaches though, which is what it's all about anyway.

Enjoy the ride, hope for a few rivalry upset wins, and have fun watching the young talent develop.
Ski u mah, Go gophers!

This looks like something I wrote about 6-7 weeks ago.
 

The offensive line was terrible last year too. We haven't had an OL drafted since Mason left. That's not a talent issue?

Flecks OL recruits are not highly rated in this class but he's looking for more athletic lineman to develop. He had a 3* and a 2* OL get drafted in the last two years. Mock drafts have Chukwuma Okorafor going as high as the middle of the 1st round in next year's draft. He was a mid 3*.

Fleck and staff have a proven track record of coaching up offensive lineman.

Do we have WMUs OL coach on our staff?


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Never mind, I've beat this horse to death. This is Fleck's baby.
 

Do we have WMUs OL coach on our staff?


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Yes, Brian Callahan was with Fleck all 4 years at WMU. Both he and Warinner are very good coaches. They'll get the OL figured out, it's just going to take more than 3 weeks of recruiting and half a season of play.
 

I'm not going to assign all the blame on the players or the prior staff if that's what you want. I see what I see, as well as everyone else around the country. MN is currently on a bad trajectory, or momentum track if you wish. Too early to write off the season as we will get some key defensive guys back (well, I hope) and the installation of the offense and defense and confidence and execution of younger guys on the two deep will hopefully improve.

Gary Anderson was a promising coach hired on at Wisconsin after a similar rise at Utah State and OSU fans were likely generally excited to get him after Riley left. Their negative momentum has been building despite admonitions from Anderson to "trust the process". It's safe to say the program is in full disarray this season and the team has now quit on Andersen. My fear, perhaps misplaced, is a bad season leads to average recruiting and the situation perpetuates and snowballs. I'd like to see some signs of improvement this season particularly after we get some secondary guys back. If Fleck can finish out a top half Big Ten recruiting class despite a 4-5 win season I'll be impressed.

I think we can all agree that winning is better than losing. I think we can also agree that a player that is being recruited would rather come to a program that is viewed as a winning program or at least one that is showing promise of improvement. The truth is, winning matters in terms of the psyche of current players and future players. This idea that it doesn't matter if we lose now because we are setting ourselves up for a B1G championship in three years is one of the most insane arguments ever made. Thanks for the post above. And I hope PJ finds a way to put a couple of Ws together the rest of the way as it certainly helps oil the gears of whatever his current and future plans might be.
 


Yes, Brian Callahan was with Fleck all 4 years at WMU. Both he and Warinner are very good coaches. They'll get the OL figured out, it's just going to take more than 3 weeks of recruiting and half a season of play.

So how do you feel about the OL recruits they have for 2018 right now?


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Kill/Claeys lost the last 2 games. Why not blame them, all the other problems with the program are their fault as well. Their lack of coaching/leadership led them to 9 wins last year. Forget all the bull****, take responsibility, and Coach your players as hard as you self promote!!

Well, that didn't take long for a thread started by a reasoned, well-stated post to start going off the rails.
 

So recruiting rankings matter except when they don't. PJ can do no wrong with you. Super.


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Time and again you've failed to understand the basic correlation between recruiting rankings and wins.

I'll be critical of PJ in years 3 and 4 if this offense is still garbage. Our shortcomings were obvious coming into the season.
 

Time and again you've failed to understand the basic correlation between recruiting rankings and wins.

I'll be critical of PJ in years 3 and 4 if this offense is still garbage. Our shortcomings were obvious coming into the season.

Side step. You pimp rankings at every moment you can. You have used them as evidence that we have no talent - especially on offense and specifically at OL. However, with PJ we shouldn't care about rankings at OL now because of some dudes at WMU that panned out with low rankings. As I said, they matter except when they don't and PJ can do no wrong with you. Super Duper.


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