Did we hire Fleck to be drastically better in one year?

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Studwell55 said:
Fleck was not all-in on Saturday and he won't be all-in this year.

I've never seen a Gopher coach not play to win in a winnable game.

I'm not criticizing! I'm guessing he has his reasons. But we should recognize Saturday's gameplan and execution for what it was: a half-measure.
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Do you care to be a bit more specific? I'm curious of what you're driving at here.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Looking at just the Maryland games, the offense was good enough to beat them by 21 last year and it was good enough to beat them by 21 this year. The defense was not. That’s the point.
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You are talking in circles weather. First the offense is not nearly as good as last year, and now it is. Players the same way.

Pick a side.
 


Zeppelin Gopher said:
Do you care to be a bit more specific? I'm curious of what you're driving at here.
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I'm not speaking for what Studwell saw, but I concur with what he is saying. IMO Fleck would rather lose than risk getting Rhoda hurt right now. I can live with that now but if we get Croft fully integrated back in and past whatever the issue was that held him out, I would hope that attitude would change. IMO Fleck is over awfullizing the risk. There is a difference between allowing Rhoda to run 3-6 times a game to keep defenses honest and running him 12-16 times a game as a significant portion of your offense and tripling the risk of injury. Still like what I see overall from the coach and the team, but if Fleck played Wisconsin that same way at end of the season I'd be pretty disappointed.
 

LakerFan said:
I'm not speaking for what Studwell saw, but I concur with what he is saying. IMO Fleck would rather lose than risk getting Rhoda hurt right now. I can live with that now but if we get Croft fully integrated back in and past whatever the issue was that held him out, I would hope that attitude would change. IMO Fleck is over awfullizing the risk. There is a difference between allowing Rhoda to run 3-6 times a game to keep defenses honest and running him 12-16 times a game as a significant portion of your offense and tripling the risk of injury. Still like what I see overall from the coach and the team, but if Fleck played Wisconsin that same way at end of the season I'd be pretty disappointed.
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Herm Edwards would beg to differ
 



LakerFan said:
IMO Fleck would rather lose than risk getting Rhoda hurt right now.
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You're right - but to what end? Winning/losing the game you're currently playing in is a certainty; Rhoda vs. whomever (Croft, Green, Morgan, Pickerign, Roste) is no guarantee of the difference between winning and losing in future games this year. Moreover, Rhoda's status only affects this year. If he destroys his ACL and is done playing forever - it doesn't impact our ability to win football games in 2018 and beyond.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
PJ has been talking about not sacrificing tomorrow to win today when it comes to who he plays and red shirts....
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That somehow equates to running a completely vanilla game plan and not making adjustments?
 

LakerFan said:
I'm not speaking for what Studwell saw, but I concur with what he is saying. IMO Fleck would rather lose than risk getting Rhoda hurt right now. I can live with that now but if we get Croft fully integrated back in and past whatever the issue was that held him out, I would hope that attitude would change. IMO Fleck is over awfullizing the risk. There is a difference between allowing Rhoda to run 3-6 times a game to keep defenses honest and running him 12-16 times a game as a significant portion of your offense and tripling the risk of injury. Still like what I see overall from the coach and the team, but if Fleck played Wisconsin that same way at end of the season I'd be pretty disappointed.
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With how Fleck runs the RPO, it's really only a handful of run opportunities per game for the QB. He did say there were only a handful last game and Rhoda pulled and ran on two of them. What miffed me a bit more is there are multiple other ways to keep the defense honest and get the LBs to back off, but none seemed to be used.
 



What I see in this thread is a lot of hyperbole.

Like always, the reality lies somewhere in the middle.

Example 1: Poster X says that our record in year 1 (or 0, or whatever) doesn't matter, because hiring Fleck has always been about the future. Poster Y says that 9+ wins in year 1 (or 0, or whatever) is all that is acceptable because we won 9 games last year. REALITY: Somewhere in the middle. I don't think anyone thinks 5 or fewer wins this season is acceptable. I also think if we get to 10+ wins it would be an unbelievable accomplishment.

Example 2: Poster 1 says our talent is way down this season. Poster 2 says our talent is as good as it's ever been. REALITY: Somewhere in the middle. No question we are inexperienced at QB. We brought back some nice pieces on D. OL is lacking in depth. RBs are as good as we could ask for. It's not the same team as last year in terms of talent, but certainly more stocked than some Gopher teams in the last decade. Personally, I think we have SLIGHTLY less talent and experience than last year, but certainly more than Kill had at the beginning of his tenure.

Example 3: Poster 1 says Poster 2 hates PJ no matter what he does. Poster 2 says Poster 1 loves PJ no matter what he does. REALITY: Somewhere in the middle. Most real Gopher fans want to support PJ, but may find his personality off-putting or his lack of immediate change disheartening. A few Gopher fans will never give him a chance despite the fact that any coach would need time as he is still taking over a program that hasn't won a B1G championship in over 50 years and is surely fighting an uphill battle against the Michigans, Penn States, Ohios States, and (gulp) Wisconsins out there. (And no, Wisconsin is still not on the same level as those other 3.)

Personally, I think a realistic expectation is 6 or 7 wins in the regular season. Would have said the same at the beginning regardless of who was the coach. I think it is fair to say that the number of expected wins climbs in Fleck's future seasons as head coach. It is also fair to say that the number of expected wins in year 1 does not change regardless of who is head coach.

That's my opinion.
 

bizzle22 said:
What I see in this thread is a lot of hyperbole.

Like always, the reality lies somewhere in the middle.

Example 1: Poster X says that our record in year 1 (or 0, or whatever) doesn't matter, because hiring Fleck has always been about the future. Poster Y says that 9+ wins in year 1 (or 0, or whatever) is all that is acceptable because we won 9 games last year. REALITY: Somewhere in the middle. I don't think anyone thinks 5 or fewer wins this season is acceptable. I also think if we get to 10+ wins it would be an unbelievable accomplishment.

Example 2: Poster 1 says our talent is way down this season. Poster 2 says our talent is as good as it's ever been. REALITY: Somewhere in the middle. No question we are inexperienced at QB. We brought back some nice pieces on D. OL is lacking in depth. RBs are as good as we could ask for. It's not the same team as last year in terms of talent, but certainly more stocked than some Gopher teams in the last decade. Personally, I think we have SLIGHTLY less talent and experience than last year, but certainly more than Kill had at the beginning of his tenure.

Example 3: Poster 1 says Poster 2 hates PJ no matter what he does. Poster 2 says Poster 1 loves PJ no matter what he does. REALITY: Somewhere in the middle. Most real Gopher fans want to support PJ, but may find his personality off-putting or his lack of immediate change disheartening. A few Gopher fans will never give him a chance despite the fact that any coach would need time as he is still taking over a program that hasn't won a B1G championship in over 50 years and is surely fighting an uphill battle against the Michigans, Penn States, Ohios States, and (gulp) Wisconsins out there. (And no, Wisconsin is still not on the same level as those other 3.)

Personally, I think a realistic expectation is 6 or 7 wins in the regular season. Would have said the same at the beginning regardless of who was the coach. I think it is fair to say that the number of expected wins climbs in Fleck's future seasons as head coach. It is also fair to say that the number of expected wins in year 1 does not change regardless of who is head coach.

That's my opinion.
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A fine post.
 

LakerFan said:
I'm not speaking for what Studwell saw, but I concur with what he is saying. IMO Fleck would rather lose than risk getting Rhoda hurt right now. I can live with that now but if we get Croft fully integrated back in and past whatever the issue was that held him out, I would hope that attitude would change. IMO Fleck is over awfullizing the risk. There is a difference between allowing Rhoda to run 3-6 times a game to keep defenses honest and running him 12-16 times a game as a significant portion of your offense and tripling the risk of injury. Still like what I see overall from the coach and the team, but if Fleck played Wisconsin that same way at end of the season I'd be pretty disappointed.
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When it comes to any game, it is unacceptable to me to hold back players that are actually playing because we fear they might get hurt. I'm ok with wanting to RS players or with holding someone out because of an injury and wanting to get them a little more time to recover. I am not ok with limiting what a player who is on the field can do and I can't believe any player would be ok with one of their teammates on the field only being allowed to do certain things because the coaches don't want to risk injury with them. If they are healthy and playing, then the coaches should use them in a way to try to win every single game. To do that they need to trust the players that are on the field and put them in the best plays to have success and ultimately win that particular game.
Would any of you be ok if PJ came out and said Rodney is too valuable of a back and we don't want to get him injured, so we're only going to give him 10 carries a game and if we throw a pass to him and it is a little high we have told him to not reach for it, because we don't want him taking a shot in the ribs?
Telling Rhoda he shouldn't run or even limiting his chances by not calling that play is hurting the offense. I'm not saying they need to run it all the time, but if they have practiced it, then they should not be afraid to use it and when it is successful, they should go back to it a few more times in the game.
 

dpodoll68 said:
You're right - but to what end? Winning/losing the game you're currently playing in is a certainty; Rhoda vs. whomever (Croft, Green, Morgan, Pickerign, Roste) is no guarantee of the difference between winning and losing in future games this year. Moreover, Rhoda's status only affects this year. If he destroys his ACL and is done playing forever - it doesn't impact our ability to win football games in 2018 and beyond.
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I think Rhoda gives the best chance for the other 10 players on offense to improve. That will really help when a Freshman or whoever starts next year.

Everyone should go listen to Fleck's interview with PA on KFAN today. Fleck reiterated he is building the culture and that's really all he cares about this year. The guy went 1-11 five years ago and he's completely ok doing it his way.
 



PMWinSTP said:
That somehow equates to running a completely vanilla game plan and not making adjustments?
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It's not his only comment that fits the idea that he is looking forward more than game to game at the moment.
 

GFBfan said:
When it comes to any game, it is unacceptable to me to hold back players that are actually playing because we fear they might get hurt. I'm ok with wanting to RS players or with holding someone out because of an injury and wanting to get them a little more time to recover. I am not ok with limiting what a player who is on the field can do and I can't believe any player would be ok with one of their teammates on the field only being allowed to do certain things because the coaches don't want to risk injury with them. If they are healthy and playing, then the coaches should use them in a way to try to win every single game. To do that they need to trust the players that are on the field and put them in the best plays to have success and ultimately win that particular game.
Would any of you be ok if PJ came out and said Rodney is too valuable of a back and we don't want to get him injured, so we're only going to give him 10 carries a game and if we throw a pass to him and it is a little high we have told him to not reach for it, because we don't want him taking a shot in the ribs?
Telling Rhoda he shouldn't run or even limiting his chances by not calling that play is hurting the offense. I'm not saying they need to run it all the time, but if they have practiced it, then they should not be afraid to use it and when it is successful, they should go back to it a few more times in the game.
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What position? QB is totally different than running back or wide receiver.
 

Sacrifice today for the future.....
- If we are talking about RSing kids that could help us win now to build for something great in future years - I am OK with that.
- If we are talking about playing anyone in a way to avoid injury at the expense of a game now because of some possible injury that could happen and consequently maybe hurt us in games later this year - that is crazy, wrong, ridiculous, and insane.


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goldy93 said:
What position? QB is totally different than running back or wide receiver.
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Any position
When we played MTSU, without Brooks, then Smith went down, we didn't limit the carries that McCrary got and were not afraid to give a few to JFC, but we still want to protect the RS of London and Mohamed. What would have happened had McCrary or Femi-Cole would have also been out, due to injury or suspension? Would we have stopped running the ball altogether and thrown more?
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Everyone should go listen to Fleck's interview with PA on KFAN today. Fleck reiterated he is building the culture and that's really all he cares about this year. The guy went 1-11 five years ago and he's completely ok doing it his way.
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He is building his program and if that involves tearing down some of what is already in place for his vision that is what he will do. This is now his way not a continuation of what came previously.

A lot of fans might not like that approach. If if Fleck is sacrificing some wins this year for what he deems better for the the program long term so be it. I am just going to try and enjoy the process.
 

scools12 said:
He is building his program and if that involves tearing down some of what is already in place for his vision that is what he will do. This is now his way not a continuation of what came previously.

A lot of fans might not like that approach. If if Fleck is sacrificing some wins this year for what he deems better for the the program long term so be it. I am just going to try and enjoy the process.
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Feel the same way, scools.
 

scools12 said:
He is building his program and if that involves tearing down some of what is already in place for his vision that is what he will do. This is now his way not a continuation of what came previously.

A lot of fans might not like that approach. If if Fleck is sacrificing some wins this year for what he deems better for the the program long term so be it. I am just going to try and enjoy the process.
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It's a false construct. It's not an either/or proposition. He can win now and in the future.
 

If anybody thinks it's okee-dokee to win one Big Ten game with this roster--they're nuts.

This is a better than average Gopher roster.
 


Studwell55 said:
If anybody thinks it's okee-dokee to win one Big Ten game with this roster--they're nuts.

This is a better than average Gopher roster.
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This is not last years team and our opponents are not the same as last year.

As I posted in another thread:

Here is how we stack up with Freshmen and Redshirt freshmen in the two deeps, against B1G opponents.

Illinois- 15 in the two deeps and 9 starting
Minnesota 10 and 4
Nebraska- 10 and 1
Michigan State- 11 and 2
Northwestern- 9 and 3
Iowa - 9 and 2
Wisconsin- 8 and 2
Michigan- 4 and 2
Purdue- 3 and 2
Maryland- 5 and 0
 

scools12 said:
He is building his program and if that involves tearing down some of what is already in place for his vision that is what he will do. This is now his way not a continuation of what came previously.

A lot of fans might not like that approach. If if Fleck is sacrificing some wins this year for what he deems better for the the program long term so be it. I am just going to try and enjoy the process.
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Yeah I don't know if PJ is right or wrong or if he is even holding back too much in "year 0" (that line is having more meaning )... it's his call.

It does seem to be maybe more than at least I anticipated, but if it pays off a great deal, fine by me. Still i'll be nervous the whole time this lasts...
 


MaxyJR1 said:
This is not last years team and our opponents are not the same as last year.

As I posted in another thread:

Here is how we stack up with Freshmen and Redshirt freshmen in the two deeps, against B1G opponents.

Illinois- 15 in the two deeps and 9 starting
Minnesota 10 and 4
Nebraska- 10 and 1
Michigan State- 11 and 2
Northwestern- 9 and 3
Iowa - 9 and 2
Wisconsin- 8 and 2
Michigan- 4 and 2
Purdue- 3 and 2
Maryland- 5 and 0
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This is still an easy schedule, we essentially swopped psu for Michigan. Sparty an upgrade from Rutgers. But Maryland a bad loss no matter how you slice it, we still have more talent than Purdue, and the other four divisional opponents are about the same, well Nebraska worse IMO. Iowa and NW are the same, Sconnie is still top dog. This isn't murderers row. This team is capable of going a mediocre 4-5 in the league
 

dpodoll68 said:
It's a false construct. It's not an either/or proposition. He can win now and in the future.
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Sure he can win now. It’s not a total rebuild. Though we might disagree on how much he can win this year.

Fleck isn’t in a win now position and it appears that is the approach he is taking.


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bemidjigopher said:
This is still an easy schedule, we essentially swopped psu for Michigan. Sparty an upgrade from Rutgers. But Maryland a bad loss no matter how you slice it, we still have more talent than Purdue, and the other four divisional opponents are about the same, well Nebraska worse IMO. Iowa and NW are the same, Sconnie is still top dog. This isn't murderers row. This team is capable of going a mediocre 4-5 in the league
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I will be disappointed without a bowl.

Maryland is better and we are worse
Purdue is better and we are worse
MSU is better
Michigan is good
Nebraska is worse, but so are we
Agree that Iowa and Northwestern are about the same, but we are worse.
Agree on Wisconsin.

Illinois should be only game we are favored in the rest of the way.

Where was MN picked to finished by most people this year? About 11 out of 14.
 

scools12 said:
He is building his program and if that involves tearing down some of what is already in place for his vision that is what he will do. This is now his way not a continuation of what came previously.

A lot of fans might not like that approach. If if Fleck is sacrificing some wins this year for what he deems better for the the program long term so be it. I am just going to try and enjoy the process.
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Patrick Swayze's character from Roadhouse "It'll get worse before it gets better."

You've got to do it your way, and there'll be some growing pains along the way.
 

OddStack said:
Patrick Swayze's character from Roadhouse "It'll get worse before it gets better."

You've got to do it your way, and there'll be some growing pains along the way.
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PJ needs to fire up a Roadhouse themed motivational thing.
 

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