Did we hire Fleck to be drastically better in one year?

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PMWinSTP said:
That's not the point and you know it, think we all know that he's not going anywhere any time soon. It's about expectations. Fleck's got the talent and schedule to maintain and win eight.
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Where I differ is the expectations. I thought coming into the season 6-7 wins was the ceiling regardless of who the coach was.




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Spoofin said:
Let's start with the game plan on both sides of the ball that showed we were unprepared, the uninspired effort the players put forth, and the crazy refusal to make any in game adjustments - especially with our offensive approach.


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This is spot on, and what is very concerning to me. Keep in mind, Fleck had an extra week, and was still eaten alive by Durkin. Maryland had a great game plan to take away the Gophers ability to run between the tackles, and Fleck couldn't adjust. That's not all on Rhoda. Spread things out, run some jet-action, throw screens, run counters and cutbacks and play action. Fleck did nothing to address that. It's either competitive arrogance or incompetence, and neither are acceptable.

For those saying Maryland is more talented, I don't buy that. They're better receiver and QB, sure. But, the Gophers have a far superior defense, even with the shortcomings in the secondary, are better on special teams, RB and a number of other areas. Just because Maryland had a nice recruiting class or two lately does not mean they are more talented yet. They certainly will be going into the future, but it's not the case right now.

It's a really bad loss, and it's unsettling to me how many are convinced otherwise. All we heard about was how great Fleck was because he took WMU somewhere. Well, he got outclassed last weekend by a fellow B1G coach. I'm certainly not giving up on him, and maybe it was a bad day, but if that game was indicative of his brass-tacks coaching ability, there is good reason for concern.
 

You're right--it's cause for concern. But it is one game, game 4, year one, new regime. Not panic time.

However, wading through all the bitter schadenfreude posts is almost as depressing as watching a winnable game slip away. Maybe more depressing.
 

Spoofin said:
We know you aren't very good at following the details of a discussion. You don't need to keep proving it. Coach.


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Do you actually have something to say? Or are you drawing jet sweeps on paper and emailing them to PJ?

We have a lot more talent right now than 2011. It's not even close.

It was also clear to most that we don't have the same level of talent as last year and weren't going to win the West.
 

John Galt said:
Do you actually have something to say? Or are you drawing jet sweeps on paper and emailing them to PJ?

We have a lot more talent right now than 2011. It's not even close.

It was also clear to most that we don't have the same level of talent as last year and weren't going to win the West.
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But that wasn't the conversation you jumped on. Nor was it comparing the talent to last Saturday. You might want to go back to making up things that others said - it worked well for you last night Coach.


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Also hasn't Fleck said he takes I step back from play-calling and lets his coordinators do the work? If that's the case we should be mad at Ciarrocca and Smith for the O and D play on Saturday. And of course a Head Coach isn't going to call out his coordinators in a Press Conference, but we also don't know what he has said to them behind the scenes.
 

Spoofin said:
But that wasn't the conversation you jumped on. Nor was it comparing the talent to last Saturday. You might want to go back to making up things that others said - it worked well for you last night Coach.


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Ummm, the conversation was around whether the 2017 or 2011 team had more talent. If 4 keys players (Winfield, Duke, Weyler and Douglass) all miss a game and it's the only one that we've lost, how can you include them as evidence that we have more talent?
 

John Galt said:
Ummm, the conversation was around whether the 2017 or 2011 team had more talent. If 4 keys players (Winfield, Duke, Weyler and Douglass) all miss a game and it's the only one that we've lost, how can you include them as evidence that we have more talent?
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Haven't looked, but I would venture a guess that there were a few players that missed some games in 11. So, including those 4 in the argument that there is more talent on this team than the 11 team seems reasonable.
 

GFBfan said:
Haven't looked, but I would venture a guess that there were a few players that missed some games in 11. So, including those 4 in the argument that there is more talent on this team than the 11 team seems reasonable.
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If they all miss only 1 game it's reasonable.

Fleck's 1st 3 non-conference games were as good or better than what we ever saw in the non-conference from the previous staff. Fleck's black eye is now the Maryland game, where we didn't have 4 starters. But yet we're going to include them as evidence that our talent is better and that coaching is what lost us the Maryland game???
 



Pompous Elitist said:
Going into the season I expected a mild drop off at defense but a bump up in offense. Jury is still out but the losses at safety and CB/Craighton and the uncertainty with Durr have made me a little more negative. Couple that with the apparent unreadiness of Harris and Beck or a staunch desire to redshirt and we may get torched by good offenses as they play vs basically a prevent defense.

On the other side I expected a mild to moderate improvement on offense and the jury is still out but it's not looked good thus far. Teams are stacking the box and so far we seem to have no answer - I expect that to improve.

Bottom line is due to losses on defense we are probably going to need to score more than 24-30 points per game. I'm more pessimistic than I was 4 weeks ago because winnable games just got a lot tougher, and we're going to struggleat least until we get McGhee, Winfield, Craighton, Croft back and we see some serviceable play from some freshmen. That and doing some things significantly better on O. This could be a tough season to stomach but we'll see. Resetting expectations may make me a happier fan...
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I finally found a post that summarizes pretty much how I feel. I'm resetting my expectations. I also did this in 2015 after the spate of injuries and Kill's retirement. I expected big things that season and was disappointed, but I wasn't crushed because I realized that things changed during the season. I was starting to expect big things this season after watching steady improvement for 3 games, but it's starting to look like I'll be disappointed again. I won't be crushed because I'm resetting my expectations given the injuries, suspensions, and my new read that it'll take this staff (especially on O) a year to adjust to B1G schemes and talent.
 

I guess this is all about expectations and what you viewed the team's talent as, as one poster has alluded to.

QB: I don't think many of us expected us to miss Mitch as much as this team does for his running ability as I think most thought Croft would take the job and the feet wouldn't miss a beat. With Rhoda, yes he throws a pretty nice ball and can do some nice things in the pocket, but it really hurts our read option game and his attempted pull and fumble debacle was a brutal. When he's misfiring, this offense loses a ton of pep and puts the defense in a major hurt. Either they need to tell him pulling it and getting 4 yards is ok (which it is, as it makes the DE stay home) or phase the read option out some as he's just not looking comfortable keeping it.

RB: RB talent is as good if not better. Really hard to assess Brooks and Smith as the space they've had to navigate has been tight due to loaded boxes.

WR/TE: We miss Woli for sure. Johnson has stepped up big time, but he also disappears at times. Could be scheme or that teams are doubling him but we definitely lack a second playmaker to free up space. Think we hoped Lingen or Woz could help out here, but they just have not. And for the rest, Howard has had yips, Still has been non-existent and in the dog house, Carter just doesn't seem to have the ability to get open. Second facet that I think has hurt with these guys is they, IMO, have not blocked well, the TEs especially. Seeing way too much of Lingen getting blown up at the point of attack, which cripples developing a lane for the read option. Need these guys to figure it out or the back half of B10 play will be very ugly. Overall talent level looks similar. One guy who looks like he could start/play for other B10 teams and not much after that.

OL: pass blocking looks much improved, which may be aided by Rhoda looking more comfortable than Mitch in the pocket at times. Run blocking has looked regressed, but this may be more 8, 9 man boxes coupled with the lack of threat for a QB keeper in effect. Need them to gel more because the talent level should not have dropped off this much.

DL: I've thought or DL overall has been slightly worse than last year. Richardson continues to look good but rest of DL has been relatively non-existent. Coughlin looks overmatched from a size aspect at DL. Shows flashes but dominated most other plays, which I did not expect. Devers, Cashman both look like they can't do much at this point, which is bothersome. Need someone to figure out how to get home in this system. The talent should be there, but for some reason it's not showing up.

LB: Feel like our LB talent is better than last year, flying to the ball more effectively. Our best unit IMO. Doesn't mean they don't make mistakes, but looks like they're being expected to compensate for other's deficiencies right now.

DB: Talent looks severely dropped off from last year. Really lacking a #1 DB, which I was hoping Shenault could be. Winfield, McGhee look just as good but are missing games. We really don't have a set of backups that can contribute, which I feel like is what last year's team could do that this year's can't. We just don't have the depth. This could be a really good unit in 1-2 years, but they're taking some heavy lumps this year and it appears the coaches don't trust them right now because of this.

K/P: talent is just as good as last year. Can't really complain here.

Offense: play call is vanilla, some wrinkles but really shows we don't have the dynamic playmakers at WR. Really easy to play armchair coordinator but I expected better and feels like we're underachieving on offense with the offensive minds we have on staff. Expected better.

Defense: appears we're planning to play soft defense and hope for mistakes. Guys appear to be in right positions relatively speaking most of the time, which is consistent with last year. But looks like they don't have the horses to hold up in the secondary to allow us to be more exotic, which is why I think they're feeling limited in what they can call for fear of giving up home runs. We will see if they adapt. If you asked me before MD, I would've said I'm thrilled with how the defense has come around (sound tackling, good point of target, flowing to the ball with tenacity and speed) but now watching it against a team with some athletes, I'm a little more worried about how the guys are being put on the field.

Discipline: expected big things out of Fleck and co in terms of pre snap penalties, awareness of situations, etc and I would say they've achieved on this. Much less bone-head penalties, guys all together appear to be aware of situational football.

I guess what I'm getting at with this ramble is I was cautiously optimistic our DBs would look better than this and they just don't appear talented at this juncture, especially without Winfield. I expected our DL to look much much better rushing the passer. Unsure if that's scheme or underachieving players. Our QB limitation I expected for sure, and it's playing out that way exactly. We only have a few guys that I'd say could start on most B10 teams, and it's showing when those guys get dinged up. Guess I underappreciated the lack of depth this team had and think it is showing
 

Taji34 said:
Also hasn't Fleck said he takes I step back from play-calling and lets his coordinators do the work? If that's the case we should be mad at Ciarrocca and Smith for the O and D play on Saturday. And of course a Head Coach isn't going to call out his coordinators in a Press Conference, but we also don't know what he has said to them behind the scenes.
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I assume PJ isn't calling plays play to play. In the past at WMU he said that wasn't his thing.
 




Word said:
I would hope he could at least keep us at the same level (8-9 wins). The talent is there.
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The talent level at keys spots is not there and by saying 8-9 wins, you're assuming that other teams stay the same or get worse.
 

TruDomGopher said:
You're right--it's cause for concern. But it is one game, game 4, year one, new regime. Not panic time.

However, wading through all the bitter schadenfreude posts is almost as depressing as watching a winnable game slip away. Maybe more depressing.
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Gopher Lady gets a lot more traffic after a loss.
You know the loss was bad and the team was out played but if 2 or these 3 things go the Gophers way I believe the Gophers won that game:
1. Huff making that interception
2. Johnson catching that pass at the five yard line/Rhoda throwing it better
3. Missed field goal

The biggest concern for me at this point is how will our current defensive ends stop the run against big offensive lines. It might work against Wazzu or Oregon State but it could be tough the rest of the way.
 

WorkingMyTailOff said:
Gopher Lady gets a lot more traffic after a loss.
You know the loss was bad and the team was out played but if 2 or these 3 things go the Gophers way I believe the Gophers won that game:
1. Huff making that interception
2. Johnson catching that pass at the five yard line/Rhoda throwing it better
3. Missed field goal

The biggest concern for me at this point is how will our current defensive ends stop the run against big offensive lines. It might work against Wazzu or Oregon State but it could be tough the rest of the way.
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That may be true on those plays, but you could also say, if two of these three things hadn't happened we get blown out.
1. Huff stopping their fake field goal try
2. Carter making that fantastic catch on 3rd and long
3. Brooks fumble gets recovered by Maryland.

The game was disappointing and to me the biggest concern was we didn't make needed adjustments to help our offense and defense have more success throughout the game.
 

GFBfan said:
That may be true on those plays, but you could also say, if two of these three things hadn't happened we get blown out.
1. Huff stopping their fake field goal try
2. Carter making that fantastic catch on 3rd and long
3. Brooks fumble gets recovered by Maryland.

The game was disappointing and to me the biggest concern was we didn't make needed adjustments to help our offense and defense have more success throughout the game.
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Good points
 

JZsportswhiz said:
The team played poorly and Fleck and staff were not prepared. Fact
The team lacks the talent to play sloppy and beat good B1G teams. Fact
The team lacks depth across the board. Fact

Let's also remember Fleck and staff are going through a learning curve too. What was cute and pretty in the MAC, is not going to necessarily work in the B1G. Fleck knows what he has to work and the deck is stacked against him, but he also has to do a better job IMO. I have no doubt this program is headed in the right direction but there will be growing pains. No doubt about it.

Fleck wasn't hired to win the B1G or go to the Rose Bowl in 2017/2018, this process going to take time. I like how he is establishing a winning culture, and attracting high end recruits. I mean the #3 QB in the 2019 class took the time to come to TCF. That alone is an accomplishment. Imagine the team the last few years with a QB
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I could say the same about Claeys and yet he didn't seem to get the benefit of the doubt.
 

GFBfan said:
That may be true on those plays, but you could also say, if two of these three things hadn't happened we get blown out.
1. Huff stopping their fake field goal try
2. Carter making that fantastic catch on 3rd and long
3. Brooks fumble gets recovered by Maryland.

The game was disappointing and to me the biggest concern was we didn't make needed adjustments to help our offense and defense have more success throughout the game.
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And since Spoofin never answered it earlier, I’ll ask you the same thing. What adjustments would you have made that PJ didn’t?
 

HoustonTXGopher said:
I could say the same about Claeys and yet he didn't seem to get the benefit of the doubt.
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Because this was the only situation Tracy would have ever been hired as a head coach. He was always just a stop gap until the next AD came in.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
I'm as frustrated as anyone by game Saturday. Gophers were outplayed on all facets, including coaching.

However, I'm in this for the long haul. Just as I was with all previous coaches. Fleck is going to recruit his guys, run his system and we will see what happens.

The aftermath of a loss is always the same. But when its in game 4 of a new regime I am less concerned. If a similar loss occurs in 2020? Sure. Lets freak on Fleck (trademark pending) but until then take a deep breath and realize he is going to be here a while and freaking out over a loss is silly.
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Pretty much. I was very harsh in my critique of how they played against Maryland, but to be honest, I don't ever expect instant success when it comes to Gopher football. I've seen Gopher teams pee-down their legs enough over the years. And frankly, I get sick of it and will let the team and coaches have it when it happens. That probably isn't going to change.

But am I fool enough to write off Fleck after one loss in his first season? Of course not. To do so, frankly, is silly and ridiculous.

If he's going to build a big-time program here, it'll take some time. I never thought anything different.

With that being said, it doesn't mean I won't rip on them if they aren't ready to play or play poorly. After all, this is NCAA Division I, Power-Five, full-scholly football.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
And since Spoofin never answered it earlier, I’ll ask you the same thing. What adjustments would you have made that PJ didn’t?
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Fleck is a very highly paid professional football coach. You expect a fan to know the same amount?
 

Word said:
Fleck is a very highly paid professional football coach. You expect a fan to know the same amount?
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If the same group of fans want to post complete nonsense that no adjustments were made, I’d like to hear their genius solutions.

Maryland didn’t score in the 3rd quarter. The Gophers 1st two drives after halftime resulted in a missed FG and a TD to tie the game. I’m sure no adjustments were made...
 

scools12 said:
Where I differ is the expectations. I thought coming into the season 6-7 wins was the ceiling regardless of who the coach was.




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Fair enough. I expected 8 at the end of last year for 2017, and for me, the bowl game solidified that expectation.
 

JZsportswhiz said:
The team played poorly and Fleck and staff were not prepared. Fact
The team lacks the talent to play sloppy and beat good B1G teams. Fact
The team lacks depth across the board. Fact

Let's also remember Fleck and staff are going through a learning curve too. What was cute and pretty in the MAC, is not going to necessarily work in the B1G. Fleck knows what he has to work and the deck is stacked against him, but he also has to do a better job IMO. I have no doubt this program is headed in the right direction but there will be growing pains. No doubt about it.

Fleck wasn't hired to win the B1G or go to the Rose Bowl in 2017/2018, this process going to take time. I like how he is establishing a winning culture, and attracting high end recruits. I mean the #3 QB in the 2019 class took the time to come to TCF. That alone is an accomplishment. Imagine the team the last few years with a QB
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Nobody is expecting that and you know it.
 

BarnBurner said:
Now it is OK to compare this offense to last year? In a positive light? After you have repeatedly said the opposite?

You just did a 360. And you dont even know it.
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weather guy avoids this one.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
And since Spoofin never answered it earlier, I’ll ask you the same thing. What adjustments would you have made that PJ didn’t?
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GopherWeatherGuy said:
If the same group of fans want to post complete nonsense that no adjustments were made, I’d like to hear their genius solutions.
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Your a real piece of work. You were actually involved last night in the "discussion" JG and I had on this exact topic where I named multiple things. If memory serves me - you commented on it (likely recruiting rankings or PJ support). Not sure what your agenda is with the above BS posts.


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My beef with Fleck is that he thinks he can't be successful with the talent here.
The cupboard isn't as good as some, but it's not bare. This team, short handed,
with good coaching beat a (now #11) WSU team in the Holiday Bowl to go 9-4.

Fleck so far is more worried about 'changing the culture'. All fine but the culture outside
a couple really dumb decisions by a small few, was pretty good. Academics up, guys were
buying in and playing with heart. He needs to BUILD off that, not REbuild it...
 

Spoofin said:
Your a real piece of work. You were actually involved last night in the "discussion" JG and I had on this exact topic where I named multiple things. If memory serves me - you commented on it (likely recruiting rankings or PJ support). Not sure what your agenda is with the above BS posts.


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You didn't name anything even after I asked several times. You just keep deflecting like you are now.

I also like how you conveniently ignored responding to the facts I laid out that suggested Fleck and staff definitely made halftime adjustments. Just like every coaching staff does at every level of football when trailing at halftime.
 

I've been through so many coaching changes as a fan that I've learned not to even care about the first two years of their tenure. I'll expect the third year to be when his coaching style can really start to take effect, so that is when I will expect results.
 

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