Did we hire Fleck to be drastically better in one year?

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Bob_Loblaw said:
Well, the question was idiotic. He did you a favor by not answering your ridiculous question.

It's shocking that someone could be dumb enough to bring up the current talent deficit in the same "point" as comparing early Kill tenure to early Fleck tenure. It's literally the second dumbest thing I've ever read on Gopherhole (behind your comment about "winning having little effect on recruiting"). It's not surprising. You're incapable of having a real discussion about anything to do with this team or college football in general anymore. You're obsessed with PJ Fleck to the point that you're fighting nonexistent battles. You are his white knight.
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I was just wondering how many years into his regime he had the Gophers two games above .500 in the conference. He didn't answer the question and of course you went on some long spiel about being obsessed with Fleck. Get a new bit.
 

btowngopher said:
Just because we won 9 games last year doesn't mean Fleck inherited WAY more talent than Kill did.
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Now this ^ is absolutely priceless.


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60's Guy said:
Come on guys...we won 9 games last year. We had ONE guy drafted in the 7th round because he can run fast. It's college football. 25 or so guys leave every year on every team. Other guys step in. Who was irreplaceable?

Year one, you analyze what strengths you have and utilize them. You install your culture but that doesn't mean you install the spread or the triple option flexbone without the players to flourish in it. You run whatever will make you the most successful in the present while installing elements of what you want to do in the future and are able to successfully execute now. You transition slowly.

You are just making excuses, buying time to collect a paycheck if you need three years before you say you can start to build a winning team. The athletic director is talking about the urgency PJ is bringing to the program. Year zero is urgency?? Major disconnect somewhere there with both PJ and most of you guys willing to give him three years to plod along until we see what we got.

<b>All I know is there was zero imagination on offense Saturday. If you don't have talent then you have to be innovative, you trick people, ala Purdue. You don't run the same play over and over without running the variations off of it...using it as a decoy, deception to something else. You don't tell your quarterback not to run and then run a play that requires him to. What happened to two backs? Watch highlights, wide receiver screens score a touchdown every other highlight. Spread people out...any college quarterback and receiver can play catch...that's all it is. One block, one fast receiver, touchdown. We don't need new recruits to do that!!! Or many other not really even innovative offensive plays that are hard to defend...especially when the defense is surprised....and we had them set up to be surprised by something different.

Line can't block...maybe we need a fullback...maybe we need a tight end to be an extra blocker. Million things we don't need better players to be more successful to execute offensively. Find a way!!! We certainly do have some talent. Oh btw we were 2 touchdown favorites for you guys who think we are as whoa as me as PJ paints.</b>
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Sounds like you are just bitter Claeys was fired and not objective about PJ.

Did I do that right?


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The team played poorly and Fleck and staff were not prepared. Fact
The team lacks the talent to play sloppy and beat good B1G teams. Fact
The team lacks depth across the board. Fact

Let's also remember Fleck and staff are going through a learning curve too. What was cute and pretty in the MAC, is not going to necessarily work in the B1G. Fleck knows what he has to work and the deck is stacked against him, but he also has to do a better job IMO. I have no doubt this program is headed in the right direction but there will be growing pains. No doubt about it.

Fleck wasn't hired to win the B1G or go to the Rose Bowl in 2017/2018, this process going to take time. I like how he is establishing a winning culture, and attracting high end recruits. I mean the #3 QB in the 2019 class took the time to come to TCF. That alone is an accomplishment. Imagine the team the last few years with a QB
 


we hired fleck to change the culture of the program. that starts with all of us learning the difference between happiness and joy. once we have that, we can move on to changing our best. once we do that we can move on to wins and loses.
 

btowngopher said:
What position group other than RB is way more talented now?
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LB, DB, OL, WR, and Special teams. We are more talented now at all of those positions compared to when Kill took over and at QB we are pretty close to what Kill had to start with.
 


JZsportswhiz said:
The team played poorly and Fleck and staff were not prepared. Fact
The team lacks the talent to play sloppy and beat good B1G teams. Fact
The team lacks depth across the board. Fact

Let's also remember Fleck and staff are going through a learning curve too. What was cute and pretty in the MAC, is not going to necessarily work in the B1G. Fleck knows what he has to work and the deck is stacked against him, but he also has to do a better job IMO. I have no doubt this program is headed in the right direction but there will be growing pains. No doubt about it.

Fleck wasn't hired to win the B1G or go to the Rose Bowl in 2017/2018, this process going to take time. I like how he is establishing a winning culture, and attracting high end recruits. I mean the #3 QB in the 2019 class took the time to come to TCF. That alone is an accomplishment. Imagine the team the last few years with a QB
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Everything you have written makes perfect sense to me. I fully agree with this post.


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GFBfan said:
LB, DB, OL, WR, and Special teams. We are more talented now at all of those positions compared to when Kill took over and at QB we are pretty close to what Kill had to start with.
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WR? Definitely worse. DBs are better now. LBs probably better overall, but Tinsley and Wilson were pretty good too. OL I haven't seen much improvement.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
I was just wondering how many years into his regime he had the Gophers two games above .500 in the conference. He didn't answer the question and of course you went on some long spiel about being obsessed with Fleck. Get a new bit.
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Yeah, you asked a horrible question and Dpo rejected it.

Long spiel? That was long-winded to you? Ok:). It was three short sentences.

I have plenty of conversations on here that have absolutely nothing to do with commenting on your obsession.
 


btowngopher said:
WR? Definitely worse. DBs are better now. LBs probably better overall, but Tinsley and Wilson were pretty good too. OL I haven't seen much improvement.
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Kill took over in 2010, Wilson was not on the team then. Tinsley was a very good LB, but there are at least 4 that are better than him on the current roster.
WR has equal if not better talent this year. Barker and McKnight were the two best ones on that first team. Johnson, Still when he gets out of doghouse, and Carter are at least equal to them if not better.
 



btowngopher said:
WR? Definitely worse. DBs are better now. LBs probably better overall, but Tinsley and Wilson were pretty good too. OL I haven't seen much improvement.
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QB - Gray vs. Rhoda - slight advantage 2011
RB - Bennett/Kirkwood vs. Smith/Brooks - huge advantage 2017
WR - McKnight/Green/Barker vs. Johnson/Carter/Still - slight advantage 2017
TE - McGarry/Lair vs. Lingen/Wozniak - gigantic advantage 2017
OL - Olson/Bunders/Wynn/Orton/Gjere vs. Greene/Wright/Weyler/Olson/Connelly - slight advantage 2017
DL - DeLattiboudere/Jackson/Richardson/Coughlin vs. Perry/Jacobs/Kirksey/Wilhite - slight advantage 2017
LB - Martin/Barber/Celestin vs. Rallis/Tinsley/Cooper - slight advantage 2017, particularly considering Coughlin and Cashman should be playing most of their time here
DB - Vereen/Stoudermire/Royston/Salamon vs. Shenault/Thomas/Winfield/McGhee - slight advantage 2017

We are slightly better to much, much better at every position group in 2017 except QB. Keep in mind that many of the 2011 players were freshmen/sophomores and weren't as good as they would be later. I can't believe that we have to litigate this point when we're discussing a 3-9 team (that lost by 58 to Michigan, 28 to Purdue, 27 to Nebraska, and 29 to Wisconsin) vs. what should be a 4-0 team. This is seriously one of the stupidest arguments I've ever had in my 10 years here - kudos.
 

Anyone hiring anyone expecting results in one year is going to go through a lot of coaches and probabbly make endlessly bad choices.
 

GFBfan said:
Kill took over in 2010, Wilson was not on the team then. Tinsley was a very good LB, but there are at least 4 that are better than him on the current roster.
WR has equal if not better talent this year. Barker and McKnight were the two best ones on that first team. Johnson, Still when he gets out of doghouse, and Carter are at least equal to them if not better.
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All I'm saying is their isn't WAY more talent. The 9 vs 3 wins is making it look much more extreme than it truthfully is, there isn't 3 times more talent. Do we have more NFL talent, no not really. Were we landing much more highly rated h.s. prospects, no not really. Were we recruiting better within the conference the past 3-4 years, no not really.
 

Going into the season I expected a mild drop off at defense but a bump up in offense. Jury is still out but the losses at safety and CB/Craighton and the uncertainty with Durr have made me a little more negative. Couple that with the apparent unreadiness of Harris and Beck or a staunch desire to redshirt and we may get torched by good offenses as they play vs basically a prevent defense.

On the other side I expected a mild to moderate improvement on offense and the jury is still out but it's not looked good thus far. Teams are stacking the box and so far we seem to have no answer - I expect that to improve.

Bottom line is due to losses on defense we are probably going to need to score more than 24-30 points per game. I'm more pessimistic than I was 4 weeks ago because winnable games just got a lot tougher, and we're going to struggleat least until we get McGhee, Winfield, Craighton, Croft back and we see some serviceable play from some freshmen. That and doing some things significantly better on O. This could be a tough season to stomach but we'll see. Resetting expectations may make me a happier fan...
 

Not necessarily but we didn't hire him to be drastically worse (not saying we are, jury is out yet) or completely rebuild the team either.


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JZsportswhiz said:
Let's also remember Fleck and staff are going through a learning curve too. What was cute and pretty in the MAC, is not going to necessarily work in the B1G.
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This excuse doesn't fly with me. Most of the staff has coached in the Power 5. Fleck and Smith coached in the NFL. Paup, Fleck, and Simon all played in the NFL. Linguist coached in the SEC last year. None of the defensive coaches were coaching in the MAC last year. Ciarrocca and Smith were coordinators at Rutgers right before they went into the Big Ten. Warinner was the OC for a Big Ten team that won a national championship. These guys aren't harboring any delusions about what is going to work in the Big Ten.
 

btowngopher said:
All I'm saying is their isn't WAY more talent. The 9 vs 3 wins is making it look much more extreme than it truthfully is, there isn't 3 times more talent. Do we have more NFL talent, no not really. Were we landing much more highly rated h.s. prospects, no not really. Were we recruiting better within the conference the past 3-4 years, no not really.
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You've got to be kidding me. Tyler Johnson, Shannon Brooks, Rodney Smith, Brandon Lingen, Carter Coughlin, John Celestin, Thomas Barber, Kamal Martin, Duke McGhee, Antoine Winfield Jr, Steven Richardson, Merrick Jackson, Ryan Santoso, Emmit Carpenter are all NFL talent and there are probably a few more that I missed. Name that many off the 2010 roster.
We have way more talent on this team this year than we did in 2010. Back then we couldn't even beat bad teams, let alone stay in games vs. good ones. We have been able to do that with regular frequency the past few years. Why? because of better talent. Kill/Claeys had a recruiting philosophy of going after those players that weren't P5 recruited for the most part, but were still very good players. They were able to bring in many talented players that way. They also missed on quite a few, but were able to get quite a few of them to perform at a high level.
 


Claeys and crew got Bo Pellinied by the administration (9-4) and the OP seems to imagine Fleck inherited a dumpster fire. smh
 

dpodoll68 said:
I very much disagree with the basic premise of your post - that we "certainly were not going to contend for any titles." It's BS. The Big Ten West is full of mediocre-to-poor teams outside of wisconsin. A minor upset home win over Becky should've been the only thing standing between us and a trip to the BTCG to get drubbed by Ohio St. or Penn St. Now, because we pissed away a home game in which we were 13-point favorites, that scenario becomes far less likely. It's ok to have expectations for P.J. Fleck. We're not paying him $3.5 million to lose to Maryland at home as 13-point favorites. He's getting paid far more than Jerry Kill, who twice had this team on the precipice of the BTCG. It's ok to have standards and to be upset when those standards aren't met.
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Definitely okay to be upset by the loss. But gophers still control their own destiny in the west.
 


dpodoll68 said:
QB - Gray vs. Rhoda - slight advantage 2011
RB - Bennett/Kirkwood vs. Smith/Brooks - huge advantage 2017
WR - McKnight/Green/Barker vs. Johnson/Carter/Still - slight advantage 2017
TE - McGarry/Lair vs. Lingen/Wozniak - gigantic advantage 2017
OL - Olson/Bunders/Wynn/Orton/Gjere vs. Greene/Wright/Weyler/Olson/Connelly - slight advantage 2017
DL - DeLattiboudere/Jackson/Richardson/Coughlin vs. Perry/Jacobs/Kirksey/Wilhite - slight advantage 2017
LB - Martin/Barber/Celestin vs. Rallis/Tinsley/Cooper - slight advantage 2017, particularly considering Coughlin and Cashman should be playing most of their time here
DB - Vereen/Stoudermire/Royston/Salamon vs. Shenault/Thomas/Winfield/McGhee - slight advantage 2017

We are slightly better to much, much better at every position group in 2017 except QB. Keep in mind that many of the 2011 players were freshmen/sophomores and weren't as good as they would be later. I can't believe that we have to litigate this point when we're discussing a 3-9 team (that lost by 58 to Michigan, 28 to Purdue, 27 to Nebraska, and 29 to Wisconsin) vs. what should be a 4-0 team. This is seriously one of the stupidest arguments I've ever had in my 10 years here - kudos.
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If you're going to compare 2011 to 2017, why don't you actually use the guys that played on Saturday... completely disingenuous take blaming Fleck for the loss and then claiming we are better this year because we have Winfield, McGee, Weyler, etc...
 

The 2017 Culture is way more talented than the 2011 Culture.


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John Galt said:
If you're going to compare 2011 to 2017, why don't you actually use the guys that played on Saturday... completely disingenuous take blaming Fleck for the loss and then claiming we are better this year because we have Winfield, McGee, Weyler, etc...
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We know you aren't very good at following the details of a discussion. You don't need to keep proving it. Coach.


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NotSkankasourus said:
This. NINE WINS. Beat Wazoo in a bowl game. He should at least be 'as good' right?
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Why does he have to at least be "as good" this year as last? What if they only win 6 games this year? Fleck isn't getting fired.
 


scools12 said:
Why does he have to at least be "as good" this year as last? What if they only win 6 games this year? Fleck isn't getting fired.
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That's not the point and you know it, think we all know that he's not going anywhere any time soon. It's about expectations. Fleck's got the talent and schedule to maintain and win eight.
 

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