B1G Talent

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Sorry if this is off topic, but what is the status of Coney Durr? The Gophers had injuries in the secondary and based on the way he played in the Bowl game last year it seems like he could have helped them out yesterday. Are they trying to redshirt him this year or is in Fleck's doghouse.
 

Another point I'd like to make. I think the Football team is going to take a similar path as the basketball team. Pitino took over a team with some returning talent and a decent first year. However that team had depth issues and after the upperclassmen graduated the team bottomed out. Fortunately Pitino and his staff were able to recruit talent and restock the cupboards. I think Fleck and his staff are going to be able to do the same thing with the football team. There is talent on this team, they just lack depth. Hopefully Fleck is able to build that depth and overall talent in his next couple of recruiting classes.
 

Coach Taylor said:
Sorry if this is off topic, but what is the status of Coney Durr? The Gophers had injuries in the secondary and based on the way he played in the Bowl game last year it seems like he could have helped them out yesterday. Are they trying to redshirt him this year or is in Fleck's doghouse.
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I believe I read that Durr has been playing on Special Teams (someone can verify) so a redshirt is out. From what I hear he just isn't recovered enough from his torn ACL to play DB.


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goldy93 said:
What do 2 players and their star ranking have to do with overall team speed and athleticism?

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I don't know the answer to your question, but I have learned it means these guys are both average talent-wise.


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goldy93 said:
What do 2 players and their star ranking have to do with overall team speed and athleticism?

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Those were are the two main players that gashed us yesterday. Too fast, and too talented. And, we've heard some murmurings about needing to match that talent before we have any hope of winning games. Just pointing out lack of offers and stars for Johnson and Moore.

We have a four star per 247 at WR and I don't think he's been targeted. Recruiting experts.
 


Spoofin said:
You are spot on SON. And most here realize it. There are a handful of PJ supporters that wouldn't criticize him for murdering people. He can do no wrong. They are Flecknotized. Of course, when they get called out for it they will just say others are Claeys guys and not objective. One did that just yesterday. Rinse. Repeat.


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And there have been people who will hate Fleck no matter what. Hell, there was someone here who said they couldn't even enjoy the Oregon St win because they dislike Fleck so much.

I think one of the issues on here right now is there's a lot of exaggeration going on. One person says something and it turns into all the Flecksters think this or the Claeys guys said that.

As for the topic of this thread, it's probably somewhere in the middle. Maryland looked more talented than last year. But it's still a game we should have won. A disappointing loss, no doubt. But let's see how the rest of the season goes.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Yes. Minnesota had players that were better and Maryland had players that were worse.
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Look, I get the point that you're trying to make, but if you look at the same data from 247 for last year, Maryland was 6 and the Gophers 12. Maryland has better talent. They did last year, they will next year. We beat them last year. They beat us this year.

In the overall College Football Rankings (of this silliness which is the 24/7 rankings you pulled into the conversation) Maryland is 28. UCF is 55. Gophers are 63. Maryland is better than both of these teams, and the Gophers and UCF are closer to each other than to Maryland. Maryland lost, and lost badly after suffering adversity last week to a team that didn't have anywhere near the talent Maryland does (again, according to a seriously flawed measurement system your using as "fact").

They also have a coaching staff that was able to take a real sh!t show from the week before and fix it, quickly. We'll find out if we have the same when we have the 12th most talented team playing the 14th most talented team on Saturday.

All teams have injuries, weaknesses and adversity. We'll see what happens the rest of the way and how this coaching staff deals with the adversity and how the kids respond.

And for the record? Oregon State has more talent than we do, too.

I believe when it comes to top 10 teams in terms of overall talent, there is some validity in recruiting rankings. Outside of that, I don't buy it. Too many players to evaluate, and no consistency in how it can be done. I also have a hard time with any "objective" ranking that lists Blake Cashman as a 1 star .69 talent player (today as the 247 numbers do reflecting his high school rating) or shows that the Middle Tennessee QB Stockstill is rated the same as Maryland's third string QB is.

The development of those players since being recruited has a big impact on how talented a team is vs. using a "paper" assessment that says "at a point in time, when none of these players was seen by everyone, so called experts say this team is better than that team" so therefore team "A" has more talent than team "B".

This isn't to say that you're assessment of Maryland having better players is wrong, it's just not as clear as you want it to be. Just ask the LSU players - or the Troy players. In the NFL, it is much closer to gospel that it is in college. College football is riddled with examples of players who aren't any good and teams that suck beating much better teams/players.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Michigan State and Washington didn't have close to top 5 classes. For all you Wisconsin boosters Wisconsin hasn't had close to top 5 classes.
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And all of those teams are one hit wonders in terms of conference titles and none of them have national titles. Who are the national title holders of the last decade, and Who are the perennial top 5 recruiting classes? They are one in the same Clemson, OhSt, Bama, FSU.

It’s 80% talent, 20% coaching, but here is the catch, coaches are responsible for recruiting.
 

STPGopher said:
I can only speak for myself here..... I just think that the Terps exposed a weakness that may make for a long season for the Gophers!
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A weakness due to lack of speed/talent, which can only be cured by better talent.
 



Pompous Elitist said:
I thought offers was where it's at in judging players.

Are we talking about the speed of their offensive line now? I thought we were talking about skill player speed. I was way off!
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You really need to look at team rankings over several years, not one or two players. Bama has walkons that start, and teams that recruited poorly by rankings standards and never compete for a national championship can find a Ben Rotheslsburger, Brett Favre, Eli Manning on their roster.
 

DEGopher said:
A weakness due to lack of speed/talent, which can only be cured by better talent.
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Agree to disagree. Holding the edge/ stringing out running plays, and offensively tweaking running and passing plays aren't about speed alone.

I am hoping Fleck and staff change their best this week.
 

More outliers


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STPGopher said:
Agree to disagree. Holding the edge/ stringing out running plays, and offensively tweaking running and passing plays aren't about speed alone.

I am hoping Fleck and staff change their best this week.
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Fleck has a very good staff, so I expect they will make the needed adjustments, just don't understand why it wasn't done in game.
 



PMWinSTP said:
Fleck has a very good staff, so I expect they will make the needed adjustments, just don't understand why it wasn't done in game.
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Agreed. They were severely out coached in the game Saturday and didn't make the needed adjustments at the half to turn things in our favor. Which was odd, considering they did so well in making half time adjustments the first three games.
 

DEGopher said:
And all of those teams are one hit wonders in terms of conference titles and none of them have national titles. Who are the national title holders of the last decade, and Who are the perennial top 5 recruiting classes? They are one in the same Clemson, OhSt, Bama, FSU.

It’s 80% talent, 20% coaching, but here is the catch, coaches are responsible for recruiting.
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MSU was Big Ten champs 3 times in the last decade.

So now it's national championships? Since college ball hasn't had a real playoff that's difficult to really say as the participants were chosen. Like I said, the best teams have the best coaches. Talent is very important but I'm glad you agree it isn't 100%.
 

DEGopher said:
You really need to look at team rankings over several years, not one or two players. Bama has walkons that start, and teams that recruited poorly by rankings standards and never compete for a national championship can find a Ben Rotheslsburger, Brett Favre, Eli Manning on their roster.
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Yes, teams stacked with NFL talent from top to bottom tend to do better. Not disagreeing. However there are only a handful of teams like that and then a pretty large group that have ups and downs based on their coaching carousel. If your contention is we can't compete until we start bringing in top 5 teams better go watch the Yikes. We need coaches that can overachieve with the talent they're able to bring in. So far even the silver-tongued Fleck is having a difficult time reeling in a top 20 class.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
MSU was Big Ten champs 3 times in the last decade.

So now it's national championships? Since college ball hasn't had a real playoff that's difficult to really say as the participants were chosen. Like I said, the best teams have the best coaches. Talent is very important but I'm glad you agree it isn't 100%.
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People seem to be black and white, no gray area. It is either the coaches or the players, but never both. As soon as someone says "Maryland was faster and more athletic than us", they believe it means you are giving the coaching staff a pass and then someone will go off on a tangent trying to prove the teams were equally talented due to someone's rating system, ignoring what the eyeballs clearly saw on the field. If you say "[t]he coaches did not have the team prepared", it means you are holding the players blameless, that if the coaching staff had done its job, we would win the game. Why is it not a combination of both? How about Maryland had better players than us and we did not do a good job coaching and we lost a close game? Why is that so hard?

I find it amusing that when we beat OSU and MTSU, several on here gave no credit whatsoever to the coaching staff, saying we had better players, the cupboard was not bare, etc. As soon as we lose, it is not that the other team had better players, but the coaching staff's fault. None of the credit, all of the blame. The other camp is no better. Coaches did a great job in the OSU and MTSU wins, but no blame for the Maryland loss whatsoever. Strictly players. None of the blame, all of the credit. Makes no sense.
 

goldy93 said:
People seem to be black and white, no gray area. It is either the coaches or the players, but never both. As soon as someone says "Maryland was faster and more athletic than us", they believe it means you are giving the coaching staff a pass and then someone will go off on a tangent trying to prove the teams were equally talented due to someone's rating system, ignoring what the eyeballs clearly saw on the field. If you say "[t]he coaches did not have the team prepared", it means you are holding the players blameless, that if the coaching staff had done its job, we would win the game. Why is it not a combination of both? How about Maryland had better players than us and we did not do a good job coaching and we lost a close game? Why is that so hard?

I find it amusing that when we beat OSU and MTSU, several on here gave no credit whatsoever to the coaching staff, saying we had better players, the cupboard was not bare, etc. As soon as we lose, it is not that the other team had better players, but the coaching staff's fault. None of the credit, all of the blame. The other camp is no better. Coaches did a great job in the OSU and MTSU wins, but no blame for the Maryland loss whatsoever. Strictly players. None of the blame, all of the credit. Makes no sense.
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They had better players last year. I think everyone understands we're not as good with our losses on defense and our limitations at QB and WR right now. It was also a winnable game and we played soft D right or wrong. We didn't take easy yards and handicapped the run game to protect the QB right or wrong. Both are defensible positions. Coaches didn't want to get roasted but this was their 3rd string QB...make him uncomfortable.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
They had better players last year. I think everyone understands we're not as good with our losses on defense and our limitations at QB and WR right now. It was also a winnable game and we played soft D right or wrong. We didn't take easy yards and handicapped the run game to protect the QB right or wrong. Both are defensible positions. Coaches didn't want to get roasted but this was their 3rd string QB...make him uncomfortable.
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When you lose, soft D is wrong. :)
I don't get the protecting the QB angle at all. PJ has made it clear that no player regardless of position or ability level is immune to following his guidelines when it comes to off the field matters. He is all about wanting them to do things the right way and if they don't he will find someone who will. I believe he has even said that they would go with no QB if that was what it took. If he is unafraid of going through many QB's (or any position for that matter) because of this for off the field things, why is he so afraid of it for on the field things. By saying we don't want Rhoda to run because he is too important, goes against what he is saying about suspending players. If we are going to run a read play, then run the read play and let Rhoda make the decision on the field, it hurts our offense when they take that away from him.
 

Let's face it, we're not as talented in places we need to be like OL and DL. We're playing LB's at DE and having them go against Tackles at a 90-100 lb. disadvantage. It will be a struggle all B1G season.

Maryland has an average class on Scout of #37 for the current team. Minnesota is #58 for that same time ('13-'17). 17 more 4* recruits over that time. Their 3rd string QB has equal to more experience than Rhoda. They completely changed what they do on offense from the first 3 games and I bet that also played into getting beat by UCF. They had to try and change on the fly from running QB to throwing QB within a game. Sh!t happens.

We beat them last year which we should have. They were in year #1 of a program and we were more experienced.

We were 9-4 last year and that was due to us having balanced talent and being better than 8-9 teams on our schedule. This year we don't have that advantage. I hoped for a bowl going into this season with it being a new staff, loss of DB's etc. etc.
 

Spoofin said:
Well, Claeys only had one recruiting class and it was ranked higher than PJ's in '17 and seems likely it will be higher than PJ's in '18.


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This is entirely false. The class was ranked 76 when Clayes was fired, and ended up in the low 50's with PJ having a month to work.

There is no doubt that this team has talent in some areas and players who will someday play on Sundays, but looking at this team as a whole there is a major talent gap when compared to the top half of the B1G.

That will change over the coming years, but it is going to be a lot of work to re-infuse this roster with talent. Kill was a great coach and we were able to give teams like Ohio State, Michigan, and Wisconsin battles but ultimately didn't have the talent to prevail. That needs to change
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Let's face it, we're not as talented in places we need to be like OL and DL. We're playing LB's at DE and having them go against Tackles at a 90-100 lb. disadvantage. It will be a struggle all B1G season.

Maryland has an average class on Scout of #37 for the current team. Minnesota is #58 for that same time ('13-'17). 17 more 4* recruits over that time. Their 3rd string QB has equal to more experience than Rhoda. They completely changed what they do on offense from the first 3 games and I bet that also played into getting beat by UCF. They had to try and change on the fly from running QB to throwing QB within a game. Sh!t happens.

We beat them last year which we should have. They were in year #1 of a program and we were more experienced.

We were 9-4 last year and that was due to us having balanced talent and being better than 8-9 teams on our schedule. This year we don't have that advantage. I hoped for a bowl going into this season with it being a new staff, loss of DB's etc. etc.
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Their 3rd string guy had one start prior to Saturday and that was last season. Rhoda was working on his 5th, with 4 of them being in the same system.
As I said in the post game thread. Maryland played to win the game and they were successful. We played not to lose and it didn't work out this time.
We had the advantage of 2 weeks to get prepared and refine a game plan for Maryland. It was disappointing in what we did Saturday. Have confidence that next Saturday will be better.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
They had better players last year. I think everyone understands we're not as good with our losses on defense and our limitations at QB and WR right now. It was also a winnable game and we played soft D right or wrong. We didn't take easy yards and handicapped the run game to protect the QB right or wrong. Both are defensible positions. Coaches didn't want to get roasted but this was their 3rd string QB...make him uncomfortable.
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I think another piece is that in recent years there has always been a loss of starting talent that was then filled by a talented bench player who stepped in and stepped up to the opportunity. This year should be no different. There's been plenty of posts that pointed out under performance all around...players out of position and not tackling well, and the staff not adjusting to what was being given to them. All around flat. This is a very good staff and I expect they will have the team much better prepared going forward.
 

Maryland's 3rd string QB has thrown more career passes than Rhoda and 23 more passes than the two QB's ahead of him on the depth chart this year. They are a different team than what was on film. We were not prepared for it and on top of it executed horrifically in all three phases of the game.
 

We scored 24 points on this team that supposedly has much better talent than us but gave up 31. That tells me talent/recruiting wasn't the main issue Saturday. If it was we wouldn't have been able to put that many points on the board.


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Good topic. A true turnaround where we're competing with the badgers and others won't happen until the raw talents starts coming in.
 

JZsportswhiz said:
This is entirely false. The class was ranked 76 when Clayes was fired, and ended up in the low 50's with PJ having a month to work.
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No, it is entirely accurate. Claeys was coach during 1 signing day and it wasn't the year you are referencing. Who gives a rat's arse what his ranking was over a month before signing day? Hate to break it to you buddy, but Claeys was going to sign players in that last month too.


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CentralGopher said:
We scored 24 points on this team that supposedly has much better talent than us but gave up 31. That tells me talent/recruiting wasn't the main issue Saturday. If it was we wouldn't have been able to put that many points on the board.


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Unless we have good coaching :clap:
 

Word said:
Didn't Claeys take this low-talent group of players on the road, with a backup quarterback last year and pretty easily defeat Maryland? Or am I forgetting something?
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Nope, you're not, but Fleck and his army of excuse mongers will be deflecting ownership all year here.
 

goldy93 said:
Unless we have good coaching :clap:
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So you're saying defensive play calling was bad coaching?. I doubt we have recruited better on offense compared to Maryland than we have defense. I'd have to see the recruiting breakdown by offense/defense to be sure but until that happens I'd call bs on anyone that says it was because we recruited poorly on defense.


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