How can we land top recruits with a crap game like this?

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Maybe he sees the QB play and thinks, "I'm better than him! I could play right away which means I'll play more and get better with more experience!"?
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Wisconsin has 10 or more wins in 8 of the last 12 seasons. They are nationally known for producing top running backs. They are already on a different level than the U of MN. I submit that Wisconsin is a 'helmet' school - if not top 10, then at least consistent top-20. Recruits see WI in major bowl games almost every year. They don't see the Gophers in major bowl games.

Sad but true - the U of MN can not, and should not, compare its program to WI in any way, shape or form. WI is a better program than the U of MN, and has been for years.
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Wisconsin wasn't always that way though. They were garbage before Alvarez. There is no reason to think the Gophers/Fleck can't get to at least Wisconsin's level.
 

go4rob said:
And how did Maryland have such a great recruiting class after they had such a lousy year last year, including us beating them on their own turf? Recruits choose a school based on a lot of different reasons, but the game they attend is only a small part of the equation.
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They have Under Armour supporting them. That's how.

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short ornery norwegian said:
To be perfectly blunt - to get the best recruits, you either need to be a big-time helmet school, or you have to be prepared to bend/twist the rules in some fashion - offer incentives, or let kids in school with questionable legal and academic backgrounds.

If you are not a big-time helmet school, and if you are determined to run a squeaky-clean program, then you are going to get the exact same type of recruits that the U of MN has been getting since Fido had pups. OK - but not great.

Now, you can be a winning program with that level of recruits - winning as defined as a .500 record or better. But, unless you get really lucky, you are probably never going to win conference titles or be part of the national scene.

Mason had 7 and 8-win seasons and some people said "we can do better." Kill and Claeys had 7 and 8-win seasons (even a 9-win season) and some people said "we can do better."

Now Fleck is here, and some people believe he can bring in a higher class of recruits who will elevate the program to a higher level in the conference and national scene.

At the risk of sounding cynical, I'll believe it when I see it. Like it or not, one of the hardest things in college sports is to move a program to a higher level. Is Fleck that good? I have no idea. only time will tell. But, to be honest, I am not betting my 401K on the proposition that Fleck is some miracle recruiter who can bring in kids to the U of MN that no other coach has been able to recruit.

(PS, I don't believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, either. I'm ambivalent about the Great Pumpkin)
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Good post, although I'm more optimistic about this program. A couple other posters here mentioned Wisconsin as an example of breaking through and I'll throw in Iowa and Michigan State in some years (although Sparty was a dumpster fire last year). You mentioned getting lucky. I submit that for a coach to get this program to the next level, he doesn't need to recruit all 4 and 5 star players like the helmet schools. He needs to recruit enough good players to place the team in a position to take advantage of a "lucky" season which can then elevate the team to the next level. Alvarez did that in the early 90s with Wisconsin. Ferentz and Dantonio did it to a lesser extent. Mason almost did it in 2003...then the Michigan meltdown happened. He was so close. I'm optimistic that PJ can get the Gophies to that "good enough" stage, and then they'll need a little luck to follow. I'll enjoy the ride.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Wisconsin wasn't always that way though. They were garbage before Alvarez. There is no reason to think the Gophers/Fleck can't get to at least Wisconsin's level.
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Wisconsin is now a top 15 program year in and year out. But even though Alvarez got them to the Rose Bowl in four years, they were up and down for much of his tenure. But Wisconsin has now had the same system -- or do we say culture? -- for 25 years, getting incrementally better each year. That's why they are where they are.

That's a big reason we won't get to their level.



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Hates Monikers said:
Wisconsin is now a top 15 program year in and year out. But even though Alvarez got them to the Rose Bowl in four years, they were up and down for much of his tenure. But Wisconsin has now had the same system -- or do we say culture? -- for 25 years, getting incrementally better each year. That's why they are where they are.

That's a big reason we won't get to their level.
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That's a pretty sad line of thinking. And I never said it wasn't going to take time. Alvarez still went to and won 3 Rose Bowls in his first 10 years. I'll take the occasional down year if Fleck can get us to 1 Rose Bowl, let alone 3 in his first 10 years.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
That's a pretty sad line of thinking. And I never said it wasn't going to take time. Alvarez still went to and won 3 Rose Bowls in his first 10 years. I'll take the occasional down year if Fleck can get us to 1 Rose Bowl, let alone 3 in his first 10 years.
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I would take it, too. But Alvarez's first 10 years, which would be magical for Minnesota (and was for Wisconsin at the time) is not the level Wiscinsin is at now.

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Johnnyboy18 said:
I'm not sure what you mean by winning but say he goes 6-6 this year I don't think it will significantly impact the recruiting for 2019.
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By winning, I mean at or above the recent levels. This is Minnesota, so if Fleck's teams bump along at 6-6 the next couple years, I don't see much of a jump in recruiting rankings over where they have been the last several years. His cult of personality might work for 2018 and maybe 2019 for a little bump up with higher level recruits, but if his future teams don't win at that level, they will not come.

I think he can maintain now and then elevate the winning over the next several years to get in position to have classes on par with teams like Utah, Wisc, Okla St...consistently in the 30-40ish range and popping into the 20s from time to time.
 

PMWinSTP said:
By winning, I mean at or above the recent levels. This is Minnesota, so if Fleck's teams bump along at 6-6 the next couple years, I don't see much of a jump in recruiting rankings over where they have been the last several years. His cult of personality might work for 2018 and maybe 2019 for a little bump up with higher level recruits, but if his future teams don't win at that level, they will not come.

I think he can maintain now and then elevate the winning over the next several years to get in position to have classes on par with teams like Utah, Wisc, Okla St...consistently in the 30-40ish range and popping into the 20s from time to time.
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If he goes 6-6 for 5 years sure but if he goes 6-6 the next two years recruits won't care. He's selling the future and has been since the day he was hired.
 



Johnnyboy18 said:
If he goes 6-6 for 5 years sure but if he goes 6-6 the next two years recruits won't care. He's selling the future and has been since the day he was hired.
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Sorry, his window is not that long, it just isn't. Other staffs will quickly point to that and recruit against it.
 


Johnnyboy18 said:
No **** that's my point.
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It's not 5 years, it's tops a couple bumping along at that 6 win total before this happens. That's my point. I don't see it happening because I expect Fleck to maintain and elevate.
 

Any program has the choice of offering up excuses or results. For every excuse as to why Minnesota can't, there's an example of a school that said "we can". Can't recruit to Minnesota. Really, how the hell do you recruit to Boise? Boise has easy academics. Really, how does Stanford ever get a recruit with their admission standards and no exceptions for athletics.

The reason I was so excited when PJ showed up is because he reminds of the turnaround at Oregon. For years, Oregon had excuses. Belloti (sp?) came in and basically said "we need a winning culture". Nine wins shouldn't be the ceiling--at worst, it should be average, and at best a miserable failure of a season. They dumped the excuses. The culture shifted from "Can we?" to "We will. How will we?" The right questions lead to better answers.

PJ's hungry. He's young and he wants move from being a legend in his dreams to a legend in reality. The administration, the facilities, everything is lining up, but never underestimate the power of a mighty will and hunger.

Every freaking B1G school is a "helmet" school. There are lots of excuses but no reason that Minnesota can't be at or above the level of any other school. Even the now mighty Alabama lost to Minnesota the last the two programs met back in Mason's day.

Yea, I'm a true believer--not in PJ so much, but a believer that the U is a sleeping giant that's been slumbering far too long and plagued by administration, budget, and coaching problems. As much as this program needed Kill, his philosophy was the very definition of acceptable mediocrity--eat your cupcakes and hopefully do enough in the B1G to get your low level bowl and have a 8 or 9 win season once in awhile.

PJ sees the sleeping giant and screams "WAKE UP!" I'm so on board with him. I understand what he's trying to do and build long term. It won't be easy, but as the Good Book says, Where there's no vision, the people perish. Recruits will sign on for the vision and because they want to be part of something special. And, yes, Minnesota is special. Ski-u-mah. Row the boat.
 



TruDomGopher said:
Any program has the choice of offering up excuses or results. For every excuse as to why Minnesota can't, there's an example of a school that said "we can". Can't recruit to Minnesota. Really, how the hell do you recruit to Boise? Boise has easy academics. Really, how does Stanford ever get a recruit with their admission standards and no exceptions for athletics.

The reason I was so excited when PJ showed up is because he reminds of the turnaround at Oregon. For years, Oregon had excuses. Belloti (sp?) came in and basically said "we need a winning culture". Nine wins shouldn't be the ceiling--at worst, it should be average, and at best a miserable failure of a season. They dumped the excuses. The culture shifted from "Can we?" to "We will. How will we?" The right questions lead to better answers.

PJ's hungry. He's young and he wants move from being a legend in his dreams to a legend in reality. The administration, the facilities, everything is lining up, but never underestimate the power of a mighty will and hunger.

Every freaking B1G school is a "helmet" school. There are lots of excuses but no reason that Minnesota can't be at or above the level of any other school. Even the now mighty Alabama lost to Minnesota the last the two programs met back in Mason's day.

Yea, I'm a true believer--not in PJ so much, but a believer that the U is a sleeping giant that's been slumbering far too long and plagued by administration, budget, and coaching problems. As much as this program needed Kill, his philosophy was the very definition of acceptable mediocrity--eat your cupcakes and hopefully do enough in the B1G to get your low level bowl and have a 8 or 9 win season once in awhile.

PJ sees the sleeping giant and screams "WAKE UP!" I'm so on board with him. I understand what he's trying to do and build long term. It won't be easy, but as the Good Book says, Where there's no vision, the people perish. Recruits will sign on for the vision and because they want to be part of something special. And, yes, Minnesota is special. Ski-u-mah. Row the boat.
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post of the year material...
 


TruDomGopher said:
Any program has the choice of offering up excuses or results. For every excuse as to why Minnesota can't, there's an example of a school that said "we can". Can't recruit to Minnesota. Really, how the hell do you recruit to Boise? Boise has easy academics. Really, how does Stanford ever get a recruit with their admission standards and no exceptions for athletics.

The reason I was so excited when PJ showed up is because he reminds of the turnaround at Oregon. For years, Oregon had excuses. Belloti (sp?) came in and basically said "we need a winning culture". Nine wins shouldn't be the ceiling--at worst, it should be average, and at best a miserable failure of a season. They dumped the excuses. The culture shifted from "Can we?" to "We will. How will we?" The right questions lead to better answers.

PJ's hungry. He's young and he wants move from being a legend in his dreams to a legend in reality. The administration, the facilities, everything is lining up, but never underestimate the power of a mighty will and hunger.

Every freaking B1G school is a "helmet" school. There are lots of excuses but no reason that Minnesota can't be at or above the level of any other school. Even the now mighty Alabama lost to Minnesota the last the two programs met back in Mason's day.

Yea, I'm a true believer--not in PJ so much, but a believer that the U is a sleeping giant that's been slumbering far too long and plagued by administration, budget, and coaching problems. As much as this program needed Kill, his philosophy was the very definition of acceptable mediocrity--eat your cupcakes and hopefully do enough in the B1G to get your low level bowl and have a 8 or 9 win season once in awhile.

PJ sees the sleeping giant and screams "WAKE UP!" I'm so on board with him. I understand what he's trying to do and build long term. It won't be easy, but as the Good Book says, Where there's no vision, the people perish. Recruits will sign on for the vision and because they want to be part of something special. And, yes, Minnesota is special. Ski-u-mah. Row the boat.
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+1


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TruDomGopher said:
Any program has the choice of offering up excuses or results. For every excuse as to why Minnesota can't, there's an example of a school that said "we can". Can't recruit to Minnesota. Really, how the hell do you recruit to Boise? Boise has easy academics. Really, how does Stanford ever get a recruit with their admission standards and no exceptions for athletics.

The reason I was so excited when PJ showed up is because he reminds of the turnaround at Oregon. For years, Oregon had excuses. Belloti (sp?) came in and basically said "we need a winning culture". Nine wins shouldn't be the ceiling--at worst, it should be average, and at best a miserable failure of a season. They dumped the excuses. The culture shifted from "Can we?" to "We will. How will we?" The right questions lead to better answers.

PJ's hungry. He's young and he wants move from being a legend in his dreams to a legend in reality. The administration, the facilities, everything is lining up, but never underestimate the power of a mighty will and hunger.

Every freaking B1G school is a "helmet" school. There are lots of excuses but no reason that Minnesota can't be at or above the level of any other school. Even the now mighty Alabama lost to Minnesota the last the two programs met back in Mason's day.

Yea, I'm a true believer--not in PJ so much, but a believer that the U is a sleeping giant that's been slumbering far too long and plagued by administration, budget, and coaching problems. As much as this program needed Kill, his philosophy was the very definition of acceptable mediocrity--eat your cupcakes and hopefully do enough in the B1G to get your low level bowl and have a 8 or 9 win season once in awhile.

PJ sees the sleeping giant and screams "WAKE UP!" I'm so on board with him. I understand what he's trying to do and build long term. It won't be easy, but as the Good Book says, Where there's no vision, the people perish. Recruits will sign on for the vision and because they want to be part of something special. And, yes, Minnesota is special. Ski-u-mah. Row the boat.
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We need Adidas to help us out...[emoji41]
 

The top schools typically have some kind of advantage - either fat-cat boosters who dump money into the program, or a major company that helps bankroll projects, like Nike for Oregon. Or, they have a wealthy and involved alumni base.

The U of MN just does not have any of those advantages. In theory, any D1 school should be able to move up to the higher echelon. But in reality, the college football universe makes it difficult to move up, unless you have some of the advantages I cited earlier.

Fleck is selling hope - the hope that MN can move beyond 8 wins and a mid-level bowl game. If he can pull it off, great. But, if he can't pull it off, a frequently disillusioned fan base is just going to have another reason to be disillusioned.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
You can't make it up.
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Make what up? Why do UCLA and Tennesee have top 10 recruiting classes? Are they historic powers? Why does Kentucky have a top 25 class? Those three teams have been lighting the world on fire.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
The top schools typically have some kind of advantage - either fat-cat boosters who dump money into the program, or a major company that helps bankroll projects, like Nike for Oregon. Or, they have a wealthy and involved alumni base.

The U of MN just does not have any of those advantages. In theory, any D1 school should be able to move up to the higher echelon. But in reality, the college football universe makes it difficult to move up, unless you have some of the advantages I cited earlier.

Fleck is selling hope - the hope that MN can move beyond 8 wins and a mid-level bowl game. If he can pull it off, great. But, if he can't pull it off, a frequently disillusioned fan base is just going to have another reason to be disillusioned.
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Let me make sure I understand your reasoning: Kevin Plank beat Minnesota yesterday.
 

UCLA has the advantage of location and climate. That campus is in one of the nicer areas of Los Angeles and is known for being a fun place with lots of attractive students. Southern California (the region, not the school) has an immense amount of talented players with plenty that want to stay home. Greater Los Angeles has nearly 20,000,000 residents. Pull that amount out of California as a whole and LA and what remains of the state would both be in the top 5 of states for population. It's a numbers, geographic, and climate game that UCLA is perpetually advantaged by, even as the so called other team in LA.

With Tennessee it's harder to hit the mark on. There was a residual from the Peyton Manning era that carried the Vols for many years. I think it boils down to having a stadium that draws 100,000 plus fans per game in a very atmospheric setting while the SEC has turned its football into a brand that has great aura. Players want to be part of that and thus even the middle ranking SEC teams get guys on that basis. Only Vanderbilt and to a lesser extent Kentucky, which actually draws better than I'd realized, aren't part of that. The other conferences don't have that. You get random games like us hosting Illinois or Michigan State at Purdue in the Big Ten with lots of empty seats. Then you go to Knoxville and there's 100,000 fans for say South Carolina. It's a difference maker.
 

jrock said:
Hey, I'm a PJ fan, he won me over... I thought he had the team completely unprepared for Maryland today, but I fully support him because he is our coach. Maybe a little over the top for me, but whatever, if he wins, I can grow to love. But you have no idea how Tracy Claeys recruiting class would have ended up. I can pretty much guarantee that he would have stole some recruits at the last minute with all his contacts. You're saying that Claeys class would have been worse than PJ's. I'm not buying it.
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Wrong....First of all there are few chairs Clayes can sit in when he visits a family of a recruit.After the scandal his class would have hit the crapper.Both Kill and Clayes brought in kids with questionable characters. You won't see that with PJ
 

ruppertflywheel said:
Wrong....First of all there are few chairs Clayes can sit in when he visits a family of a recruit.After the scandal his class would have hit the crapper.Both Kill and Clayes brought in kids with questionable characters. You won't see that with PJ
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You are on the record and he did have that at WMU.
 

Some Day...Maybe said:
With a dynamic coach like Fleck, that's how. With new facilities, that's how. With a metro area like the Twin Cities, that's how. With a great university like the University of Minnesota, that's how. With support from a president like Kaler, that's how. With support from an athletic director like Mark Coyle, that's how.


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+1000

We have all the ingredients to build a winning program the right way that all Minnesotans and U Alumni can be very proud of.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
The top schools typically have some kind of advantage - either fat-cat boosters who dump money into the program, or a major company that helps bankroll projects, like Nike for Oregon. Or, they have a wealthy and involved alumni base.

The U of MN just does not have any of those advantages. In theory, any D1 school should be able to move up to the higher echelon. But in reality, the college football universe makes it difficult to move up, unless you have some of the advantages I cited earlier.

Fleck is selling hope - the hope that MN can move beyond 8 wins and a mid-level bowl game. If he can pull it off, great. But, if he can't pull it off, a frequently disillusioned fan base is just going to have another reason to be disillusioned.
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Being in a metropolitan area with top companies and potential big money donors isn't an advantage?. More like we haven't been able to capitalize on our built in advantages.


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ruppertflywheel said:
Wrong....First of all there are few chairs Clayes can sit in when he visits a family of a recruit.After the scandal his class would have hit the crapper.Both Kill and Clayes brought in kids with questionable characters. You won't see that with PJ
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I think pj brought in some kids at WMU that ended up misbehaving and getting booted. It's nothing against pj- you can't predict how all kids will react when they're finally on their own away from home and BMOC at the same time. You on the the other hand are so smitten by PJs aura that you place impossible expectations on him. Ironic in a way.


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There are some true disadvantages that the Gophers face, much of it is geography.

It's not that Kill and now Fleck were attempting to go to an Oregon-caliber offense (they've got Nike to accomplish this in a similarly tough area), but both have tried to get a dual threat QB and therefore spread things out a bit, even if it still comes down to running the ball.

Unfortunately, we aren't likely to get a lot of outside talent and dynamic QBs here given location on the map, and surely not depth of it.

Knowing that, you also brought up Wisconsin a few pages back, which has driveable proximity to get the next guys up in large population states like Michigan and Ohio. We aren't obscenely far from those states, but it's 4 hours further to all of them.

I'm not saying Fleck can't do it, but it's a challenge. Our ideal best option would be to mimic Wisconsin and build a top flight rushing team with behemoth linemen, but it's tough to do given that Wisconsin and somewhat Iowa are so established in this that they win battles for those recruits. Note: I'm not saying Fleck should do this. We hope to be a good rushing team but it'll likely be with balance and we'd prefer to have a good QB controlling things out of the gun most of the time.

On top of it all, we've got competitive teams like NDSU to poach some players a bit closer to us, whereas Wisconsin is the only D1 game in town with no FCS or even DII in-state competition. Linemen (and other players) that are developmental would rather walk on there than take a Dakota offer at times. That's helped them churn out several more All Americans and maintain depth.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Wisconsin has 10 or more wins in 8 of the last 12 seasons. They are nationally known for producing top running backs. They are already on a different level than the U of MN. I submit that Wisconsin is a 'helmet' school - if not top 10, then at least consistent top-20. Recruits see WI in major bowl games almost every year. They don't see the Gophers in major bowl games.

Sad but true - the U of MN can not, and should not, compare its program to WI in any way, shape or form. WI is a better program than the U of MN, and has been for years.
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The irony is that Alvarez wanted to coach at UM (on Holtz's recommendation) but U wouldn't fire Gutekunst for another year, then hired Jim Wacker.
 

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