Reusse: Fleck has it easy coming into Gophers by comparison

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http://www.startribune.com/p-j-fleck-has-it-easy-coming-into-gophers-by-comparison/442063973/

Hey Ruesse,
We expect credit when you use our debates for inspiration ;)
-hello-world

Fleck will be the 10th full-time head coach since Warmath was forced out in 1971. It’s not a news bulletin that a majority of those coaches were hired to dredge up the Gophers from near the bottom of the Big Ten, although that’s not always been the case.

As someone who has observed the Gophers going in and out of all 10 coaching changes, here’s a bit of a ranking — from most difficult situation inherited (10) to the least difficult (1) — for coaches taking over at Minnesota.

10. Holtz, 9. Mason, 8. Kill, 7. Stoll, 6. Wacker, 5. Salem, 4. Claeys, 3. Gutekunst, 2. Brewster, 1. Fleck
 

The 4 coaches before Claeys won 2, 3, 1, and 3 games in their first year. Not really sure how to count Claeys' total as he went 2-4 in his first half year and then 9-4 in his first full season. I'd argue Claeys probably had a better situation than Fleck in his first year because he already had an established starting QB (whether you like Leidner or not, Claeys/Kill both chose to play him over the current top 2 QBs), was already familiar with the program as a whole, and didn't change much in terms of scheme on either side of the ball. If PJ wins 7 or more games in year 1 I'd call that a pretty good start.
 

The first time I have agreed with Reusse in a very long time. It's almost as if he gave this article more than five minute of thought before he put pen to paper. Good for you Patrick!
 

bizzle22 said:
The 4 coaches before Claeys won 2, 3, 1, and 3 games in their first year. Not really sure how to count Claeys' total as he went 2-4 in his first half year and then 9-4 in his first full season. I'd argue Claeys probably had a better situation than Fleck in his first year because he already had an established starting QB (whether you like Leidner or not, Claeys/Kill both chose to play him over the current top 2 QBs), was already familiar with the program as a whole, and didn't change much in terms of scheme on either side of the ball. If PJ wins 7 or more games in year 1 I'd call that a pretty good start.
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Long as you did the research on those 4 Head Coaches what were the records the year before they took over?
 

Reusse again. I don't read his columns, so not going to respond accordingly to his article. Oh Pie face is having another bad day.
 



Iceland12 said:
Long as you did the research on those 4 Head Coaches what were the records the year before they took over?
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Don't know off the top of my head. Brew took over a 6-7 team and won one game. Can't remember Mase or Kill, but I know they both took over pretty bad teams and didn't have immediate success. No clue on Wacker. With Claeys it depends how you count it...could be 8-5, 4-3, 6-7...I don't know. I know that every single one of them won more games in their second year than they did in their first year. So if PJ can start out at 6 or 7 wins and then build from there we will be in pretty good shape.
 


bizzle22 said:
Don't know off the top of my head. Brew took over a 6-7 team and won one game. Can't remember Mase or Kill, but I know they both took over pretty bad teams and didn't have immediate success. No clue on Wacker. With Claeys it depends how you count it...could be 8-5, 4-3, 6-7...I don't know. I know that every single one of them won more games in their second year than they did in their first year. So if PJ can start out at 6 or 7 wins and then build from there we will be in pretty good shape.
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Ok. I'll look then.

Gutey went 2-9. Wacker went 2-9

Wacker went 4-7. Mason went 3-9

Mason went 6-7, all the while telling people about the "big rebuild that was coming". He was right. Dammit. Brewster went 1-11. :D

Brewster went 1-6 (Horton 2-3). Kill went 3-9

Kill went 8-5.Then in '15 Jerry was credited with going 4-3. So Claeys (2 interim, 4 H.C.) must have gone 2-4

Claeys 9-4. Then P.J. Fleck will go ??????????

Hope he can get to 8 wins somehow out of the 13 he should play. Those new facilities certainly will help with recruiting. It won't help sell tickets.

A 6-6 or 6-7, or god forbid, 4 or 5 win season will kill enthusiasm and ticket sales for 2018.

They certainly don't need that.
 




Among the greatest "What If's" in MN sports history - What If Holtz stayed at MN? If Holtz stays, the Gophers would have had a recruiting class led by Tony Rice, and several other top prospects.

The NCAA would have probably come down on MN at some point, but it would have been fun to watch.
 

Brewster's First Year in 2007 - Gopher's starting line-up against Michigan - 9 Freshman/4 Sophomores

Pos ## Offense

WR 1 Wheelwright, E. - Senior
WR 7 Decker, Eric - Sophomore
LT 64 Shidell, Steve - Senior
LG 52 Tow-Arnett,Jeff - Sophomore
C 77 Brinkhaus, Tony - Senior
QB 8 Weber, Adam - RS Freshman
LG 53 Burris, D.J. - RS Freshman
RT 76 Alford, Dominic - RS Freshman
WR 81 Spry, Ralph - True Freshman
WR 6 Herndon, Tray - True Freshman
RB 22 Bennett, Duane - True Freshman

Pos ## Defense

LE Henderson, Ray - Sophomore
LT Allen, Neel - Senior
RT Meisel, Todd - Senior
RE Campbell, Lee - Sophomore
SLB Davis, Steve - Junior
MLB Hightower, Deon - Junior
WLB Mannion, Kevin - Junior
SS Barber, Dom - Senior
CB Theret, Kyle - True Freshman
CB Collado, Ryan - True Freshman
FS Thomas, Curtis - True Freshman
 

hello-world said:
http://www.startribune.com/p-j-fleck-has-it-easy-coming-into-gophers-by-comparison/442063973/

Hey Ruesse,
We expect credit when you use our debates for inspiration ;)
-hello-world

Fleck will be the 10th full-time head coach since Warmath was forced out in 1971. It’s not a news bulletin that a majority of those coaches were hired to dredge up the Gophers from near the bottom of the Big Ten, although that’s not always been the case.

As someone who has observed the Gophers going in and out of all 10 coaching changes, here’s a bit of a ranking — from most difficult situation inherited (10) to the least difficult (1) — for coaches taking over at Minnesota.

10. Holtz, 9. Mason, 8. Kill, 7. Stoll, 6. Wacker, 5. Salem, 4. Claeys, 3. Gutekunst, 2. Brewster, 1. Fleck
Click to expand...

As someone who has observed the Gophers going in and out of all 10 coaching changes, here’s a bit of a ranking — from most difficult situation inherited (10) to the least difficult (1) — for coaches taking over at Minnesota.

10. Lou Holtz (1984): Joe Salem had lost 18 of his last 19 games as coach. The ’83 Gophers were 1-10 and gave up 50 or more points six times, including 69 to Ohio State and 84 to Nebraska.

Holtz stayed only two seasons before leaving for Notre Dame. While here, he forced the university to raise the budget for assistants and to raise funds for what would serve as the football practice building for three decades. Holtz left with the 6-5 Gophers scheduled to play in the 1985 Independence Bowl in Shreveport, La.

9. Glen Mason (1997): Likable though he was, Jim Wacker was a five-season disaster for the Gophers — 8-32 in the Big Ten, and 17-39 overall. Mason and his staff started off by improving the talent on hand through coaching.

They also changed offensive strategy. Wacker’s teams tried to outscore opponents throwing the ball. Mason built a mighty running game that would have a chance to protect a defense that generally was going to be limited in speed.

When assessing his decade here, many of us need a reminder as to how screwed up it was when Mason arrived.

8. Jerry Kill (2011): Country Jer inherited minimal talent that had been poorly coached. He also walked into an academic mess and an aged practice building. He did well in all areas, has just turned 56, and would have had a long run here without his health issues.

7. Cal Stoll (1972): As football went from a power to a speed game, Warmath’s program had fallen behind in his last few seasons. Stoll came into that void and upgraded recruiting. He did that even though new athletic director Paul Giel wasn’t able to change the Gophers’ tradition of being low budget in all areas, including paying assistants.

6. Jim Wacker (1992): John Gutekunst’s program had gone off the rails in 1991, with a 2-9 overall record and last-place finish in the Big Ten. Wacker walked into an underfunded, low-talent situation and proved helpless to do anything about it.

5. Joe Salem (1979): There was offensive talent left from Stoll and Smoky Joe coached that phase of the game well. He couldn’t pay assistants, and he was originally recruiting to dilapidated Memorial Stadium. By the time the Gophers moved into the Metrodome in 1982, the talent was more suited for the Mid-American Conference than the Big Ten.

4. Tracy Claeys (October 2015): This is just a theory, but If Drew Wolitarsky’s reception with 12 seconds left had remained a touchdown, giving the Gophers the upset of Michigan in Claeys’ first game on Halloween night in 2015, Big Country still would be the Gophers coach.

Claeys went from hero to goat in the closing confusion on that rowdy night, and the public never changed its opinion of him.

3. John Gutekunst (1986): “Gutey” had a major problem in that he wasn’t Lou. The public wanted Lou, and the recruits wanted Lou (as a few did by following him to Notre Dame).

2. Tim Brewster (2007): Even moving into the new on-campus stadium in 2009 couldn’t save Coach Brew. He specialized in bringing chaos to order.

1. P.J. Fleck (2017): Five years ago, the Star Tribune had a headline reading, “At U, concern grows that ‘A’ stands for average.” Liberal grading might be a problem for a few professors, but it’s good for football — for Kill, briefly for Claeys and now Fleck.

There’s a fabulous new $170 million facility about to open, with football as the main beneficiary. There’s full funding for assistants and recruiting. There’s a nucleus of a 9-4 team coming off an upset bowl victory.

No new Gophers coach among the 10 since Warmath has had an inheritance to compare with what Fleck has been handed.
 




joshvanklomp said:
To Cruze's post....
All teams start freshmen, so its a non-story
Click to expand...

Brewster was ranked so high by Reusse because he has given a brand new on campus stadium. He pissed that advantage away because he just couldn't coach. A problem that Fleck doesn't face.

Don't happen to agree wth him, but that was his point.

That and to take a shot at Fleck.
 

Claeys should be far and away #1 on this list. What other coach had their entire defensive system and recruits in place for 5 years? Plus he had the stadium, and the facilities under construction. Gutekunst is the only thing comparable, but he was only DC for 2 years before taking over.

Fleck is definitely #2 thanks to the stadium/facilities.
 

joshvanklomp said:
To Cruze's post....
All teams start freshmen, so its a non-story
Click to expand...

In Jerry Kills first year (2011) there was only one freshman in the top 21 players with tackles on defense. Michael Amaefula had 5 solo tackles for the entire season. The other 20 top tacklers on the defense were primarily juniors and seniors. Kill inherited a significantly more experienced defense then Brewster. It wasn't even close. On offense Brewster was forced to start 6 freshman against Michigan in the Big House. The junior class in 2007 on offense (all Mason recruits) was pretty much a non-factor for the entire season.
 

HoustonTXGopher said:
The first time I have agreed with Reusse in a very long time. It's almost as if he gave this article more than five minute of thought before he put pen to paper. Good for you Patrick!
Click to expand...

Ressue's great on the good old days. Most articles have a historical lead paragraph and then shift to present day. This is 90% good old days, so it's terrific. And I agree on the Claeys/Michigan game point.
 

Reusse is who he is. Sometimes, he is right on. Most of the time he is annoying.
 


Not as much of a hit-piece as I thought it was going to be. I can't even say that I necessarily disagree with his placement of Fleck. The program, as a whole, is in pretty good shape right now...although I still think 2017 was destined for a small dip in wins. There was still the choice to write the article, though. This is the exact thing you do when you want someone to fail...you make success expected so it doesn't hurt so much if/when it happens. Example: wisconsin should be utterly embarrassed if it doesn't win the weak West division this year.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Claeys should be far and away #1 on this list. What other coach had their entire defensive system and recruits in place for 5 years? Plus he had the stadium, and the facilities under construction. Gutekunst is the only thing comparable, but he was only DC for 2 years before taking over.

Fleck is definitely #2 thanks to the stadium/facilities.
Click to expand...

I think you're right about Claeys being #1. The "fabulous new $170 million facility" line applies even more directly to Tracy than it does Fleck and as you imply, Tracey's coaching staff was in place.

Gutey could be second or third. After all, that era's "fabulous new facilities" (Reusse's Taj MaHoltz") were recently completed. And Gutekunst enjoyed wide support for the job-even among sports writers (not Reusse, if I recall, because he was out of town when the drum beat for Gutey occurred).
 

Cruze said:
Brewster's First Year in 2007 - Gopher's starting line-up against Michigan - 9 Freshman/4 Sophomores

Pos ## Offense

WR 1 Wheelwright, E. - Senior
WR 7 Decker, Eric - Sophomore
LT 64 Shidell, Steve - Senior
LG 52 Tow-Arnett,Jeff - Sophomore
C 77 Brinkhaus, Tony - Senior
QB 8 Weber, Adam - RS Freshman
LG 53 Burris, D.J. - RS Freshman
RT 76 Alford, Dominic - RS Freshman
WR 81 Spry, Ralph - True Freshman
WR 6 Herndon, Tray - True Freshman
RB 22 Bennett, Duane - True Freshman

Pos ## Defense

LE Henderson, Ray - Sophomore
LT Allen, Neel - Senior
RT Meisel, Todd - Senior
RE Campbell, Lee - Sophomore
SLB Davis, Steve - Junior
MLB Hightower, Deon - Junior
WLB Mannion, Kevin - Junior
SS Barber, Dom - Senior
CB Theret, Kyle - True Freshman
CB Collado, Ryan - True Freshman
FS Thomas, Curtis - True Freshman
Click to expand...


My God, forgot how painful that lineup was to look at in its totality.

Curtis Thomas- Probably the slowest starting DB in the country.
Kylie Theret- Eventuality forced to CB. Vivid memories of opposing WRs running 5 yard hitches and slants all game long on the poor kid
Deion Hightower. 205lbs starting MLB in the Big Ten
 


Claeys is #1 and Fleck is #2. Claeys had been here for 5 years so he had continuity with the staff and could pick and choose who he wanted to keep and who he wanted to fire. All of the pros that apply to PJ also apply to Claeys, with the possible exception that Athletes Village is further along under PJ.
 

John Galt said:
Claeys is #1 and Fleck is #2. Claeys had been here for 5 years so he had continuity with the staff and could pick and choose who he wanted to keep and who he wanted to fire. All of the pros that apply to PJ also apply to Claeys, with the possible exception that Athletes Village is further along under PJ.
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I would lean the other way with Fleck being #1 and Claeys #2
Facility wise Fleck gets the nod as AV is closer to being done and easier to sell recruits as they can actually see the building and not just some artist renditions
Players, it is a very close. Claeys had a SR QB, but they were learning a new offense. Fleck doesn't have a SR QB, but has quite a few guys with playing experience at other positions. This one to me is a wash.
Coaching Staff Claeys had the entire defensive staff as the same, most of the O were new in his first year as head coach. Fleck has quite a few who were with him at WMU on offense, but defense is all new. Claeys had a better advantage
Admin. Support Fleck in a landslide over Claeys. TC had a minimal contract and No AD support what so ever, even before the scandal. Fleck on the other hand was given a very nice contract and has the full backing of the AD/admin.
 

The argument that Claeys walked into a better situation is pretty persuasive, but the Athletes Village is a gigantic factor - it's projected to be completed during Fleck's first year on the job, and it's light-years ahead of the old facilities.
 

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