Fleck or Herman, who would you rather have?

Did you really think we had s chance at him?


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Absolutely worth trying. Direct Gopher coaching connection. Wife is from MN, her parents (grandparents) are here. His seat was getting hot. So yes, we had a chance.
 


Given the choices, Fleck. First choice for me was Sumlin.

Sumlin? Please, The guy may be the most over rated coach in college football. He has done the least with the most for many years. He inherited two of the greatest QB's to have ever played college football and still under performed at both Houston and know at TAMU. I would drop my season tickets if they hired that clown, and the same goes for Kiffin!
 


You could call the plays for them and they'd make the playoffs


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That is my point exactly. What Herman accomplished at tOSU was meh. I could have made the playoffs as OC with any tOSU team and Meyer as my head coach. Add in Ezekiel Elliot and the rest of the players from the 2014 team and you too could have been the OC that "led" that team to an NC.
 


Absolutely worth trying. Direct Gopher coaching connection. Wife is from MN, her parents (grandparents) are here. His seat was getting hot. So yes, we had a chance.

Lol, no we didn't. Sumlin didn't want to come here from Houston. He wasn't going to take 1.5 million less to jump from the SEC to the B1G. Zero chance.


Sumlin? Please, The guy may be the most over rated coach in college football. He has done the least with the most for many years. He inherited two of the greatest QB's to have ever played college football and still under performed at both Houston and know at TAMU. I would drop my season tickets if they hired that clown, and the same goes for Kiffin!

100% agree. Another 8 win season this year and he's gone.
 

Lol, no we didn't. Sumlin didn't want to come here from Houston. He wasn't going to take 1.5 million less to jump from the SEC to the B1G. Zero chance.




100% agree. Another 8 win season this year and he's gone.

Pure speculation...you have zero knowledge/idea he did not want to come here, zero. Obviously U would have had to pay him more than it paid to get Fleck, he has way more coaching experience with twice the HC experience of Fleck, and would be coming from the SEC.

You can certainly speculate whether the U would have been willing to pony up the additional $$, but it just paid $3.5M for a mid-major HC with 4 years HC experience. Sumlin would have made a major and immediate positive impact on the stature of the program and recruiting.
 

Pure speculation...you have zero knowledge/idea he did not want to come here, zero. Obviously U would have had to pay him more than it paid to get Fleck, he has way more coaching experience with twice the HC experience of Fleck, and would be coming from the SEC.

You can certainly speculate whether the U would have been willing to pony up the additional $$, but it just paid $3.5M for a mid-major HC with 4 years HC experience. Sumlin would have made a major and immediate positive impact on the stature of the program and recruiting.

Why would I want the U to spend more money on a failing P5 head coach?
 

I love Fleck, but you guys are really rationalizing your dismissal for Herman. You seriously wouldn't have been excited to get him? He elevated Rice and Iowa State before OSU. He wasn't some nobody. He beat three top ten teams at Houston and some other good teams with mediocre recruits.

Ohio state had the #1 offense in football in 2014. Number 5 in 2013. They dropped (relative term but still significant) to 20th in 2015 and 23rd in 2016.

Remember, Ohio State was a young team in 2014. They were loaded at every position for 2015 and underperformed. I realize that's a relative term.

They were young again in 2016 and to me were not ready for Alabama, etc and were blown out by Clemson. Penn State deserved the playoff but in hindsight I'm glad because we got one of the best Rose Bowls ever.
 



I am not dismissing Herman. I brought up the subject for discussion as I think both candidates are close to equally strong but for different reasons.

That being said, of all Herman's accomplishments, I find his time at tOSU to be the least impressive because that was a team and mentor so stacked in his favor it was hard not to be successful.
 

I don't agree they are equal, but they are both strong candidates.

Fleck is a genuinely gifted motivator and built a program and had a good season at WMU. Herman I know less about but has more experience as a coordinator and had marquee wins at a G5 school.

If your premise of the thread is that we got the best candidate on the market I think that's a fair but arguable point. I have a lot more respect for Fleck after seeing where he came from and how he has consistently elevated those around him going back to his high school days. He was raised right. I love his philosophy on life. He's a born leader. We should be very excited about the future of Gopher football.

I'm simply taking a contrarian position.
 

I appreciate the contrary position!

I think I am coming to the position that both are strong candidates, but Fleck is a better fit for Minnesota. I believe his strengths and experience align better with the needs of Minnesota. That being said, Herman was probably the better fit for texas.
 

Why would I want the U to spend more money on a failing P5 head coach?

(Sumlin) Hmmm, Solid young coach with strong Texas recruiting ties and familiarity with the BigTen. I can't figure out why the U would be interested in him either...
 



(Sumlin) Hmmm, Solid young coach with strong Texas recruiting ties and familiarity with the BigTen. I can't figure out why the U would be interested in him either...

They weren't. No coach is going to take a huge pay cut and leave the SEC and all of the resources in the world to try and rebuild a B1G team that hasn't won anything in 50 years.

Sumlin isn't even that young, he's 53. He could be fired if he doesn't win 10+ this year. I'd like to see an example of a coach that was fired from a P5 school, then went on to win a conference title at another P5 school.
 

They weren't. No coach is going to take a huge pay cut and leave the SEC and all of the resources in the world to try and rebuild a B1G team that hasn't won anything in 50 years.

Sumlin isn't even that young, he's 53. He could be fired if he doesn't win 10+ this year. I'd like to see an example of a coach that was fired from a P5 school, then went on to win a conference title at another P5 school.

Again, as I put in the previous post, it's obvious the U would have needed to pony up more dollars. Whether it would have is debatable, but as I posted, it was willing to pay $3.5M to a 4-year HC from a Mid-major.

Lou Holtz left a frequent top 15 school in ARK to come here.
 

Again, as I put in the previous post, it's obvious the U would have needed to pony up more dollars. Whether it would have is debatable, but as I posted, it was willing to pay $3.5M to a 4-year HC from a Mid-major.

Lou Holtz left a frequent top 15 school in ARK to come here.

Lou's choice was to leave or get fired.

"Holtz was dismissed following a 6–5 campaign in 1983. At the time, athletic director Frank Broyles stated that Holtz had resigned because he was "tired and burned out", and was not fired. Broyles testified 20 years later that he had fired Holtz because he was losing the fan base with things he said and did. Holtz confirmed that he had been fired, but that Broyles never gave him a reason

Frank Broyles, the guy who made him that "offer he couldn't refuse" died this past week.
 

Lou's choice was to leave or get fired.

"Holtz was dismissed following a 6–5 campaign in 1983. At the time, athletic director Frank Broyles stated that Holtz had resigned because he was "tired and burned out", and was not fired. Broyles testified 20 years later that he had fired Holtz because he was losing the fan base with things he said and did. Holtz confirmed that he had been fired, but that Broyles never gave him a reason

Frank Broyles, the guy who made him that "offer he couldn't refuse" died this past week.

Holtz is a cheater. :)

1 example over the past 33 years is not a good track record though.
 

Holtz is a cheater. :)

1 example over the past 33 years is not a good track record though.

Completely agree on the cheater thing. Once and always.

"I'd like to see an example of a coach that was fired from a P5 school, then went on to win a conference title at another P5 school."

These are three enormous qualifiers...
 

Completely agree on the cheater thing. Once and always.

"I'd like to see an example of a coach that was fired from a P5 school, then went on to win a conference title at another P5 school."

These are three enormous qualifiers...

Sure they are, but it's extremely rare to find a coach that was unsuccessful at one P5 school go on to be successful at another. And P5 coaches are fired every year, so there are plenty to choose from.

Overall, I think Sumlin is an overrated coach. He took over a Houston program that was built up by Art Briles and still went 5-7 in year 3. He's also never won a conference championship. His best year at A&M was his first, thanks to inheriting a ton of talent and Johnny Football. He's 15-17 in the SEC since.
 

Sure they are, but it's extremely rare to find a coach that was unsuccessful at one P5 school go on to be successful at another. And P5 coaches are fired every year, so there are plenty to choose from.

Overall, I think Sumlin is an overrated coach. He took over a Houston program that was built up by Art Briles and still went 5-7 in year 3. He's also never won a conference championship. His best year at A&M was his first, thanks to inheriting a ton of talent and Johnny Football. He's 15-17 in the SEC since.

I do understand the perception of him underachieving, I just don't see it. More successful at Houston than Briles. More successful at A&M than the two previous coaches. One losing season as a HC (which you pointed out), 8 or more wins in every other season as HC. You could argue he figured out how to get the most out of Johnny Footall's talent and skillset.
 

I'd say Fleck was definitely the best option for Minnesota, and a better fit than Herman. But I think I agree that Herman might be the better fit down in Texas. Couldn't see Texas wanting a guy like Fleck, at least not over Herman. As for Sumlin? Just because he may not have wanted to come here doesn't mean he's too good for us, because I'd have hated that hire.
 

I'd say Fleck was definitely the best option for Minnesota, and a better fit than Herman. But I think I agree that Herman might be the better fit down in Texas. Couldn't see Texas wanting a guy like Fleck, at least not over Herman. As for Sumlin? Just because he may not have wanted to come here doesn't mean he's too good for us, because I'd have hated that hire.

Curious, why would you have hated a Sumlin hire?
 

I do understand the perception of him underachieving, I just don't see it. More successful at Houston than Briles. More successful at A&M than the two previous coaches. One losing season as a HC (which you pointed out), 8 or more wins in every other season as HC. You could argue he figured out how to get the most out of Johnny Footall's talent and skillset.

It's not a perception of him underachieving, it is reality. His overall record was better at Houston, but Briles inherited a much worse team. Briles also won a Conference USA title, Sumlin didn't. Sumlin has averaged a top 10 recruiting class since arriving at A&M, and has won 8 games 3 years in a row. He's working with top talent and producing mediocre results. That's underachieving, and it's why he's on the hot seat.
 

It's not a perception of him underachieving, it is reality. His overall record was better at Houston, but Briles inherited a much worse team. Briles also won a Conference USA title, Sumlin didn't. Sumlin has averaged a top 10 recruiting class since arriving at A&M, and has won 8 games 3 years in a row. He's working with top talent and producing mediocre results. That's underachieving, and it's why he's on the hot seat.

Sure he went 12-0 at Houston in the regular but lost the championship game. Briles went 10-4 in winning his title. Other than one recruiting class there, his classes ranked very similar to Briles. I'll give you that the teams preceding Briles were poorly coached, but the recruit talent level was on par with what he and Sumlin recruited as HC.

At A&M, the two preceding coaches recruiting classes were solid top 25, routinely dropping into the mid to low teens, cracking top 10 a couple times. Comparing records, in 5 years Sumlin has won 12 more games than Franchione, or 2.5 games a season. He has done much better than Sherman. He's gotten them to bowl games every season and won more of them than those two combined. He's also coached all his seasons in the SEC, which clearly is better competition, and yes, that means his seat gets hot a lot faster than if they were still in the Big XII.

So he's consistently won more often at A&M against better competition with better recruits.
 

Sure he went 12-0 at Houston in the regular but lost the championship game. Briles went 10-4 in winning his title. Other than one recruiting class there, his classes ranked very similar to Briles. I'll give you that the teams preceding Briles were poorly coached, but the recruit talent level was on par with what he and Sumlin recruited as HC.

At A&M, the two preceding coaches recruiting classes were solid top 25, routinely dropping into the mid to low teens, cracking top 10 a couple times. Comparing records, in 5 years Sumlin has won 12 more games than Franchione, or 2.5 games a season. He has done much better than Sherman. He's gotten them to bowl games every season and won more of them than those two combined. He's also coached all his seasons in the SEC, which clearly is better competition, and yes, that means his seat gets hot a lot faster than if they were still in the Big XII.

So he's consistently won more often at A&M against better competition with better recruits.

Sherman and Franchione were failures. Who cares if Sumlin is slightly better than previous failures? He's averaging a 4th place finish in the SEC west while averaging a top 10 recruiting class.

Texas A&M has everything it needs to succeed at the highest level. It doesn't matter if the SEC is tougher, he has just as much talent as any of those teams. When the talent consistently underperforms, that's on the coaching staff.
 

Sherman and Franchione were failures. Who cares if Sumlin is slightly better than previous failures? He's averaging a 4th place finish in the SEC west while averaging a top 10 recruiting class.

Texas A&M has everything it needs to succeed at the highest level. It doesn't matter if the SEC is tougher, he has just as much talent as any of those teams. When the talent consistently underperforms, that's on the coaching staff.

;)

Yes it does.
 



I know one game is not a body of work, and you can't draw any conclusions. That being said, Now that they have both coached their debut games, any revised thoughts on this?
 





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