Did Northwestern Basketball Run Off Johnnie Vassar?

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Good read. I knew of the story but not all the details. Shows the grimy side of college basketball. If you saw the movie, "One on One" with Robbie Benson, this is it in non-fiction. I give the kid a lot of credit in pursuing the thing. Most guys would have given in. I'm not with him on the "unfairness" of the transfer rules. Lots of people work under non-compete clauses which are not fun, but still legal. It is what they sign up for.

Northwestern set the kid up and he fought back. He's got chutspa. Hard to believe they worked so hard to push him out the door. If he was a recruiting mistake and doesn't want to leave, swallow your pride and move on. I'm a big believer that the transfer decision should be the player's and not the teams. When a team no longer has plans for a player, he makes the decision to sit the bench and get his education there or move on. Simple as that.
 

I'm fine with not playing a guy who isn't going to help us (like Gaston, and maybe Gilbert). I'm okay with talking to them in a respectful way about considering a transfer -- if Gilbert isn't going to get PT next year because Pitino has other priorities, I'm fine with him being up front with him about that.

I'm not okay with verbally abusing a player so he leaves, or basically giving him an ultimatum. It sucks that we will get 4 years of non-production out of Gaston, but he took a chance on us just like we did with him. He deserves to finish his education here and move on.
 

If this comes out in favor of Vassar, I have a good reason to add Northwestern to my dislike list. Other players in that locker room who've graduated (so, they don't have anything to lose) will either corroborate Vassar's story, or won't. Despite what anyone else says, I'm going to remain naive and assume this is not common behavior by coaches. I do believe coaches do subtle stuff to "encourage" players to consider transferring. But calling someone out like Collins allegedly did crossed the line and is garbage.
 

Interesting. This brought to mind a friend of mine that played volleyball at Northwestern some years ago. There was some inappropriate advances toward her by someone in the athletic department. She ended up leaving volleyball but was give a free academic ride to finish the last 2 years of her degree in exchange for sweeping it under the rug. Makes me wonder if athletics at Northwestern has a pervasive institutional rot. Where there is one cockroach...
 


You guys are surprised? I have personally known 3 NCAA athletes, one of them my father, and all three were run off their scholarships.
 

Winnipegopher said:
You guys are surprised? I have personally known 3 NCAA athletes, one of them my father, and all three were run off their scholarships.
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Surprised, no. Appalled, yes. I think no one believes athletes are not run off. This case appears much more egregious than most though. Again I think the athlete has the right to make the decision. The team has the obligation to be honest about playing time. Then the player chooses. I certainly hope most transfers are more amicable than this. I think most of us assume it's all about the sport for them. I bet by junior year it's not anymore for most.

By the way I know a NU football player from years ago who "gave up" his scholarship for senior year. He was pushed but not forced and simply decided he wanted to get on with his life. I bet that isn't unusual.
 

It's one thing not to play a guy (Gaston and Ahmad) and it's another thing to run him off. I sincerely hope that Pitino isn't running guys off.
 





RatherBeGolfing said:
A lot of naive people out there
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Yep. It's a cut-throat money-making business. Doesn't mean I agree with doing things like this, but the lion's share of major-college ADs and Power 6 coaches got where they are by being total a**holes. They all sell a part of their soul to "justify" some of the things they'll do (or play dumb about like Sgt. Schultz, "I know nothing") all for the sake of winning. It's called straddling that gray area, and running with it.
 

Donovan said:
If this comes out in favor of Vassar, I have a good reason to add Northwestern to my dislike list. Other players in that locker room who've graduated (so, they don't have anything to lose) will either corroborate Vassar's story, or won't. Despite what anyone else says, I'm going to remain naive and assume this is not common behavior by coaches. I do believe coaches do subtle stuff to "encourage" players to consider transferring. But calling someone out like Collins allegedly did crossed the line and is garbage.
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Most everyone does this. Not saying its right but its a bit shortsighted to simply say you're not going to like any school when you are made aware of things like this. Even from this article you should add Drake to the list. You should probably add us to the list as well as guys have definitely been run off the football team. Add Utah from all the stories about Urban Mayer running off a ton of players in his first few practices. It happens everywhere
 

All that said, its still not ok to do this. The issue is that as the guy said, coaches are told win or be fired. Fans want to win. And ultimately we don't actually care about the players as people, just if they can help us win. How often do folks on this board express a desire for bench riders to stay? When do we think about the guys that left? We don't because if they're not playing they don't truly matter to us because we're only here for the entertainment on the field or court. And that's fine, honestly. Its not really a bad thing. Players just have to come into this with open eyes. The funny thing is that when the players DO play the game and handle things in a non emotional way during the recruiting process, fans hate it, lol.
 



I knew guys this happened to at the U for football, but more of the constant gentle nudging, not like this. And I understand this happens all over, but what I don't like is the snobbish Northwestern attitude that they win the "right way". Seeing that half the journalists in this country went to Northwestern, we got to hear plenty of it this year with Northwestern's first NCAA appearance. You listen to guys like Mike Greenberg and he obviously wants the narrative to be that Northwestern did the things the right way for decades and were finally rewarded, when in actuality guys like Carmody did do things at least closer to the right way and Northwestern finally got tired of that and hired a cut throat guy like Collins.

Now that all being said where Northwestern might be in real trouble is the with the time cards mentioned in the story. If they forged those like the player said and then submitted that as evidence, that is going to be a real big deal.
 

jamiche said:
It's one thing not to play a guy (Gaston and Ahmad) and it's another thing to run him off. I sincerely hope that Pitino isn't running guys off.
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Pitino has had ample time in the last few years to pull a Crean if he wanted too, but has shown that he will honor the scholarship until the kid graduates.


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alchemy2u said:
Pitino has had ample time in the last few years to pull a Crean if he wanted too, but has shown that he will honor the scholarship until the kid graduates.


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Eh...you so sure about that? Dorsey? He really wanted out so he could be a preferred walk-on "closer to home" at Colorado State? Gilbert? Remember, we were still making offers and having guys visit from the class of 2017 after we got our 2 commits which put us at the max number of scholarships. That was almost 6 months before Gilbert's transfer. Osenieks? He missed two games for a knee injury and all of a sudden it is a career-ender.

I'm not saying it did or didn't happen in those situations. But I think the thing to take from this article is that it is common practice. Northwestern and Drake aren't exactly powerhouses. If they're doing it I'd bet almost every D1 coach has run a player or two off, at least to some extent. It's a multi-billion dollar business. Coaches are paid (very well) to win. Period.
 

bizzle22 said:
Eh...you so sure about that? Dorsey? He really wanted out so he could be a preferred walk-on "closer to home" at Colorado State? Gilbert? Remember, we were still making offers and having guys visit from the class of 2017 after we got our 2 commits which put us at the max number of scholarships. That was almost 6 months before Gilbert's transfer. Osenieks? He missed two games for a knee injury and all of a sudden it is a career-ender.

I'm not saying it did or didn't happen in those situations. But I think the thing to take from this article is that it is common practice.[/B] Northwestern and Drake aren't exactly powerhouses. If they're doing it I'd bet almost every D1 coach has run a player or two off, at least to some extent. It's a multi-billion dollar business. Coaches are paid (very well) to win. Period.
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Not necessarily. The more talent you have on your roster the less likely you need to
Run off players to complete. My guess is that this is most common on programs trying to climb.

I don't think Dorsey is a good example here. Appears there was cause for dismissing him. Most likely a decision by Pitino that he was the bad apple that was at the center of the disaster. I wouldn't call what happened to him running off.

There are two issues here that are getting conflated. No one denies running off. Also seems like no one is okay with what happened at Northwestern allegedly. If true Collins and Northwestern should be publicly shamed.

W
 

Holy Man said:
Not necessarily. The more talent you have on your roster the less likely you need to
Run off players to complete. My guess is that this is most common on programs trying to climb.

I don't think Dorsey is a good example here. Appears there was cause for dismissing him. Most likely a decision by Pitino that he was the bad apple that was at the center of the disaster. I wouldn't call what happened to him running off.

There are two issues here that are getting conflated. No one denies running off. Also seems like no one is okay with what happened at Northwestern allegedly. If true Collins and Northwestern should be publicly shamed.

W
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I agree that Dorsey is a different case. At the same time, I'm sure coaches use small disciplinary issues as excuses to kick players off their team.

Also, now that we know more about the EOAA due to the football issue, I'd say it's possible that Dorsey received discipline through that process that may have encouraged him to leave.
 

bizzle22 said:
Eh...you so sure about that? Dorsey? He really wanted out so he could be a preferred walk-on "closer to home" at Colorado State? Gilbert? Remember, we were still making offers and having guys visit from the class of 2017 after we got our 2 commits which put us at the max number of scholarships. That was almost 6 months before Gilbert's transfer. Osenieks? He missed two games for a knee injury and all of a sudden it is a career-ender.

I'm not saying it did or didn't happen in those situations. But I think the thing to take from this article is that it is common practice. Northwestern and Drake aren't exactly powerhouses. If they're doing it I'd bet almost every D1 coach has run a player or two off, at least to some extent. It's a multi-billion dollar business. Coaches are paid (very well) to win. Period.
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I would consider Dorsey a different story. There were clearly discipline issues there and I am guessing he will get a scholarship at CSU, he came in pretty late and I am guessing they were already full, kid was clearly immature and I hope he grows up because he has a lot of talent. Oto was also a GA the following year I doubt he comes back if Pitino truly ran him off. Springs wasn't a sure thing until the fall because he had to graduate in the summer, so that could be why we were still recruiting. I do think Pitino doesn't put up with any crap, he gave a Lofton a quick hook and never really figured out why Squirrel was dismissed
 

This is off topic, but had to ask. Whatever happened to 2014 signee 6'9" PF Josh Martin from WA?
 

Holy Man said:
Not necessarily. The more talent you have on your roster the less likely you need to
Run off players to complete. My guess is that this is most common on programs trying to climb.

I don't think Dorsey is a good example here. Appears there was cause for dismissing him. Most likely a decision by Pitino that he was the bad apple that was at the center of the disaster. I wouldn't call what happened to him running off.

There are two issues here that are getting conflated. No one denies running off. Also seems like no one is okay with what happened at Northwestern allegedly. If true Collins and Northwestern should be publicly shamed.

W
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Understand what you are saying, and agree to an extent. Probably isn't as necessary at the blue bloods, though I still think it happens. Duke has lost a few transfers over the last couple of years (Ojeleye, Obi, Thornton, Jeter) and I gotta think that at least a couple of them were "coaxed" if you want to call it that. It depends on what counts as "running off." Sounds like NW tried to tell Johnnie that it was probably in his best interest to transfer. Most guys hear that and get the message. He liked being in school at NW and didn't want to transfer again, so he fought it. And then it turns into a forced marriage where one wants out, and the other isn't going anywhere even though they feel wronged. Not a good situation. It sounds like NW was always willing to keep him on full scholarship (NCAA violation?), just not an athletic scholarship.

I like the idea that someone brought up on this board (can't remember the thread) where scholarships are still a four year contract, but both sides get an opt-out clause after two years. If the school or player opts out after 2 years then the player is allowed to transfer without sitting out a year. Other than that everything else is the same. Obviously there would have to be an injury guarantee in there to protect the player. I don't think it's perfect, but it gives both the school and the player some additional rights, and it helps avoid these bad situations where guys get run off. I've always thought the idea of a 4 year scholarship guarantee from day 1 is a little silly. It sounds good, but even merit scholarships almost always have requirements of maintaining a certain GPA for renewal. Why not include a similar requirement for athletic scholarships? It shouldn't be year-to-year, but a one-time opt out for both seems reasonable.

And I agree that whatever happened after the Nebraska game looks bad for Collins, but I gotta believe that there is more to the story. Not to justify it, but I have a hard time believing that there weren't further circumstances that explain his outburst that aren't being told. Collins just walked up to Vassar totally out of the blue and told him he sucked and there had been no other interaction preceding that? Not buying that. I realize I'm probably coming off as a defender of NW in saying all of this, but I'm really not. I think it was unacceptable, I just think there is more to the story.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Yep. It's a cut-throat money-making business. Doesn't mean I agree with doing things like this, but the lion's share of major-college ADs and Power 6 coaches got where they are by being total a**holes. They all sell a part of their soul to "justify" some of the things they'll do (or play dumb about like Sgt. Schultz, "I know nothing") all for the sake of winning. It's called straddling that gray area, and running with it.
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Have to disagree. That grey area might be grey and those that know it's wrong continue. It takes courage to man up.
 

bemidjigopher said:
I would consider Dorsey a different story. There were clearly discipline issues there and I am guessing he will get a scholarship at CSU, he came in pretty late and I am guessing they were already full, kid was clearly immature and I hope he grows up because he has a lot of talent. Oto was also a GA the following year I doubt he comes back if Pitino truly ran him off. Springs wasn't a sure thing until the fall because he had to graduate in the summer, so that could be why we were still recruiting. I do think Pitino doesn't put up with any crap, he gave a Lofton a quick hook and never really figured out why Squirrel was dismissed
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Yes, Dorsey probably isn't a good example. Agree there were other things in play there. And it wouldn't surprise me if the administration was involved.

And the guy I'm referring to in the Class of 2017 is Malik Ondigo. We offered him on January 18 of this year. We were already full up at that point as Harris and Washington signed in November 2016. Either Gilbert told Pitino he was going to transfer in January, or the plan was to "coax" someone out the door to make room for Ondigo.
 

hungan1 said:
This is off topic, but had to ask. Whatever happened to 2014 signee 6'9" PF Josh Martin from WA?
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Ended up at Cal Poly. He's been ok there, but got hurt at the beginning of this season.
 


bizzle22 said:
Yes, Dorsey probably isn't a good example. Agree there were other things in play there. And it wouldn't surprise me if the administration was involved.

And the guy I'm referring to in the Class of 2017 is Malik Ondigo. We offered him on January 18 of this year. We were already full up at that point as Harris and Washington signed in November 2016. Either Gilbert told Pitino he was going to transfer in January, or the plan was to "coax" someone out the door to make room for Ondigo.
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The coach pushing out trouble makers doesn't count. Pitino has carried several players that don't get much playing time. If he was that type of coach he could of Crean'd a couple of players over the years. Not playing a kid because he doesn't fit the plans is not the same as telling a kid to get out.


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alchemy2u said:
The coach pushing out trouble makers doesn't count. Pitino has carried several players that don't get much playing time. If he was that type of coach he could of Crean'd a couple of players over the years. Not playing a kid because he doesn't fit the plans is not the same as telling a kid to get out.


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I agree with all of that which is why I haven't said anything that would contradict it
 

alchemy2u said:
Pitino has had ample time in the last few years to pull a Crean if he wanted too, but has shown that he will honor the scholarship until the kid graduates.


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Why do you think that? The results of his treatment of Buggs and Gilbert were thoroughly predictable. What would it take to make you think that he was trying to run guys off? Berating them in the public press? No coach does that - not even Crean or Collins. You don't know what goes on behind the scenes. If Elliot would have had one more year of eligibility, he likely would have transferred too.

A couple of the posters in this thread were right - there are a lot of naive people in this world.
 

alchemy2u said:
The coach pushing out trouble makers doesn't count. Pitino has carried several players that don't get much playing time.


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OK, he didn't have a choice with McNeil and probably not with Dorsey either. But the only player who hasn't received playing time that has lasted in Pitino's career here is Gaston. Buggs transferred, Gilbert transferred, and Elliot actually played quite a bit in Pitino's first year and even played a fair amount for the first half of his second.

Was Morris really a trouble maker? I didn't see much sign that he was.

And I'm still not convinced that Gaston won't transfer. There's still time.
 

A lot of you seem to think that suggesting a kid go elsewhere is horrible, but maybe you should try to see this from a broader perspective. If a kid is awarded an academic scholarship but earns a cumulative G.P.A. of 2.2 after three years, should he retain his academic scholarship? That's about the equivalent of what Gaston has done, in basketball terms, over his three years here. In three years, he hasn't improved his game enough to even see the floor. Why should he retain a scholarship at a D1 major when that scholarship could go to a more deserving individual?

Would you be so sympathetic to an endowed professor who was brought in at a high level of compensation but proceeded to produce very little in the way of research over five years?
 

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