All things 2017 Minnesota boys high school tourney

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JoshuaT81 said:
I don't really care about a shot clock or not, just playing devil's advocate.

If a team is stalling, maybe just get out there and guard them. Try and do something about it if you are the better team...Is there still a five second rule in high school basketball?
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That's the weird part is the other team seems complacent to sit there in their defensive alignment and not apply pressure.
 

PF

Angel Delgado, S. Hall
Emmanuel Omgobo, CSU
Yoeli childs, BYU
DJ Johnson, Kansas St.

A few division 1 players who mostly play pf that are good rebounders and decent shot blockers, who didn't hit double figures in scoring until their junior or senior years.

On 247 Theo is rated the 49th best Power Forward in the country. What is it about your expertise that negates this? I think you are bitter about something about him, his ceiling is much lower than other guys in Minnesota right now. Do you think he was rated higher?


Biggsohnasty said:
And the whole convo on John - there's no way he's a college PF. PFs nowadays have to be skilled. Very few teams play with PFs that play like Cs now. I guess the Gophers kind of do with Murphy but he's a lot more skilled than John in terms of handles and ability to create his own shot.

John doesn't impress me. I think he's just a guy at the D1 level...decent rotation big who can defend and finish inside on occasion but I'd be surprised if he turns into anything more. He's been raw for years and hasn't developed much in terms of skills. He's big and strong, but he should've dominated that game Saturday.
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Why not just implement a rule in HS BB that prevents anyone from standing still with the ball for more than 10 seconds?
 

mnsportsgeek said:
Why not just implement a rule in HS BB that prevents anyone from standing still with the ball for more than 10 seconds?
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Because that would be unprecedented. If a kid wants to stand at half court for 5 minutes and the other team won't guard him, is it his fault? Is sitting in a zone and refusing to extend it basketball?

Also, what if there is 45 seconds left and they want to take 1 shot. Should he have to dribble back and forth?
 

I'm not super high on Theo John but he is a talented shot blocker and a solid rebounder. He is physically gifted and could help a lot of D1 teams.

He isn't going to be a 20ppg game (in my opinion) but he doesn't have to be. If he can play defense and rebound, he'll get a lot of minutes. Good for him for finding a place he can likely play a fair amount as a freshman. I wish him all the success in the world.
 


UpAndUnder43 said:
Because that would be unprecedented. If a kid wants to stand at half court for 5 minutes and the other team won't guard him, is it his fault? Is sitting in a zone and refusing to extend it basketball?

Also, what if there is 45 seconds left and they want to take 1 shot. Should he have to dribble back and forth?
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He could dribble in place. It wouldn't solve all the issues but at least the pictures of guys squatting with the ball would be no more.

If we they decide to go with a shot clock they could only realistically ask the 3A and 4A schools to do it. Some of the smaller schools just don't have the money.
 

mnsportsgeek said:
He could dribble in place. It wouldn't solve all the issues but at least the pictures of guys squatting with the ball would be no more.

If we they decide to go with a shot clock they could only realistically ask the 3A and 4A schools to do it. Some of the smaller schools just don't have the money.
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The High School League is a bloated bureaucracy that could easily subsidize the schools that cost is a factor in a shot clock.
 

Holy Man said:
The High School League is a bloated bureaucracy that could easily subsidize the schools that cost is a factor in a shot clock.
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Not. It's amazing what they get done for the money. I could share the balance sheet.

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principalguy said:
Not. It's amazing what they get done for the money. I could share the balance sheet.

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Go for it. I'd think it's got to be looking pretty good since they no longer have to pay to use the metrodome/tcf bank. That's maybe a few hundred thousand in savings? A pair of shot clocks runs about $2,500. That doesn't break the bank for even the smallest of schools in the state.
 



AO54 said:
Go for it. I'd think it's got to be looking pretty good since they no longer have to pay to use the metrodome/tcf bank. That's maybe a few hundred thousand in savings? A pair of shot clocks runs about $2,500. That doesn't break the bank for even the smallest of schools in the state.
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Easy way around the cost issue is require a shot clock for tournament games and allow it's use for regular season games if the high school would like to add them. The bigger schools would add them right away and play all their home games with shot clocks and eventually the smaller schools would add them too.
 

Tim1406 said:
Easy way around the cost issue is require a shot clock for tournament games and allow it's use for regular season games if the high school would like to add them. The bigger schools would add them right away and play all their home games with shot clocks and eventually the smaller schools would add them too.
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It's the annual cost to run them, not the clock itself. $60/night (est) * 30 nights/yr. We already have a hard time finding people. This is a 4 hr evening for folks. It's just an extra expense to add to the mix, although I like it as a BB Coach and a fan.

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Tim1406 said:
Easy way around the cost issue is require a shot clock for tournament games and allow it's use for regular season games if the high school would like to add them. The bigger schools would add them right away and play all their home games with shot clocks and eventually the smaller schools would add them too.
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This is a good way to get it done!

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Ok, so lets say they DO add a shot clock.

At what age? Should freshman have it for their 9th grade games? What about sophomores? JV? Or varsity only?

Then when do you add it? You can just have a kid play 8th grade without it then expect a seamless transition. It would be like adding a 3 point line somewhere along their career path.

The reason a shot clock works in college and pros is because of how talented the players are. Very few high school kids are good enough to play in college, and college players have trouble getting consistently good shots. Watching a bunch of shot clock violations is not fun, especially when it prevents a 1/1000 (if that) occurrence.

And like I said before, why is it the responsibility of the OFFENSE to play fast and do things? The defense sitting there refusing to come out and defend is just as bad as the offense standing there.
 



Kids in Europe and across the world use 24 second shot clocks as early as 13 so the games won't get worse. Coaches should try helping kids develop more skill anyway. With that being said, teams can trap and play tougher d instead of let a guy just hold the ball at half court and while they sit back and watch
 

march madness said:
Angel Delgado, S. Hall
Emmanuel Omgobo, CSU
Yoeli childs, BYU
DJ Johnson, Kansas St.

A few division 1 players who mostly play pf that are good rebounders and decent shot blockers, who didn't hit double figures in scoring until their junior or senior years.

On 247 Theo is rated the 49th best Power Forward in the country. What is it about your expertise that negates this? I think you are bitter about something about him, his ceiling is much lower than other guys in Minnesota right now. Do you think he was rated higher?
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Not bitter about John. Just don't think missing him is a big deal because I don't think he's going to be a great college player. Very little in his game impresses me. He's a specimen and he's a good athlete for a C in college but I think he's a limited player who at best, will carve out a rotation bench big man role.

And we can all cherry pick bigs who started slow and were ranked low before busting out and playing well.

Here are guys ranked 46-50 at PF in the 2013, 14 and 15 classes:
2013
Jacob Hartsock – BYU – Left program barely played
Antravious Simmons – VCU – transferred to Florida Gulf Coast – 8 points 5 rebounds as a So. 5.4 points, 3.4 rebounds in 14 mins as a junior
Fallou Ndoye – uncommitted
Braiden Shaw – BYU – 1.4 points in 6.5 minutes as a RS sophomore
Mark Williams – Temple – 6 points 3 rebounds in 16 mins as a senior

2014
Tory Miller – Colorado – 5.6 points, 4 rebounds in 16 mins as a junior
Domantas Sabonis – Gonzaga – Exception – really good
Michael Finke – Illinois – 7 points 4 rebounds as a soph
Matz Stockman – Louisville – 4 mins per game as a junior
Ricky Doyle – Michigan – 3.8 points, 2 rebounds in 12 mins as a soph before transferring

2015
Dean Wade – Kansas State – 9 points, 5 rebounds in first two years at K-State
Tim Delaney – Villanova – RS FR, 3.7 mins per game
Andre Adams – Arizona St – RS FR 5.7 mins per game
Shawntrez Davis – Texas Tech – didn’t play
Antonio Vrancovic – Duke – 7.8 mins per game in13 games

That's 2, maybe 3 guys that turned into what I'd classify as good college players. If you want a lot, you aren't going to likely get it. I see John as a 12-18 mpg guy who can get you a few points, rebounds and block a shot. Not more than that.

I'm not bitter at him. I'm just not attached to Minnesota kids like a lot of people are.
 

Actually this season the talk about missing on "Theo John" has really died down. He was wanted a lot for the gophers last season when they couldn't play defense and rebound.

I wasn't giving those players as examples of lower recruits I have no idea what they were rated coming in. They were just pf types who aren't stretch 4's, but can help their teams with rebounding and defense.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
Ok, so lets say they DO add a shot clock.

At what age? Should freshman have it for their 9th grade games? What about sophomores? JV? Or varsity only?

Then when do you add it? You can just have a kid play 8th grade without it then expect a seamless transition. It would be like adding a 3 point line somewhere along their career path.

The reason a shot clock works in college and pros is because of how talented the players are. Very few high school kids are good enough to play in college, and college players have trouble getting consistently good shots. Watching a bunch of shot clock violations is not fun, especially when it prevents a 1/1000 (if that) occurrence.

And like I said before, why is it the responsibility of the OFFENSE to play fast and do things? The defense sitting there refusing to come out and defend is just as bad as the offense standing there.
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30 second shot clock. Start in 9th grade team (all HS teams should play by the same rules). You might as well play by the same rules college on down. Its the same argument I had for reducing the mens shot clock to 30 seconds... women's college basketball was at 30 seconds long before the men. Everyone should play by the same rules.
 

march madness said:
Actually this season the talk about missing on "Theo John" has really died down. He was wanted a lot for the gophers last season when they couldn't play defense and rebound.

I wasn't giving those players as examples of lower recruits I have no idea what they were rated coming in. They were just pf types who aren't stretch 4's, but can help their teams with rebounding and defense.
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I dislike the term "stretch 4" if only because most PFs nowadays have some semblance of a perimeter game. John doesn't. Nor do I think John would be a guy I'd want out defending guys at the 3-point line or chasing combo wings around. He's a center to me because you want him in the paint on both ends of the floor.

John's not a big miss for the Gophers. He's another guy. Him being "one of us" was the only reason so many people wanted him here. Projects as a nice rotation big man. Not program altering.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
Ok, so lets say they DO add a shot clock.

At what age? Should freshman have it for their 9th grade games? What about sophomores? JV? Or varsity only?

Then when do you add it? You can just have a kid play 8th grade without it then expect a seamless transition. It would be like adding a 3 point line somewhere along their career path.

The reason a shot clock works in college and pros is because of how talented the players are. Very few high school kids are good enough to play in college, and college players have trouble getting consistently good shots. Watching a bunch of shot clock violations is not fun, especially when it prevents a 1/1000 (if that) occurrence.

And like I said before, why is it the responsibility of the OFFENSE to play fast and do things? The defense sitting there refusing to come out and defend is just as bad as the offense standing there.
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I've seen a lot of junior high kids launching up three pointers and most of them are really bad. I would be in favor of no three point shot until they get to high school, too. It can't help them learn to shoot when they are firing up howitzers from 22 feet hoping one might actually go in. Learning to shoot properly and then extending range seems like it would help their development.
 

That's not a "basketball rule" issue. That's coaches who are enabling their kids to take idiot shots.
 

For those that have not seen Jalen Suggs, a highlight video (appears all the highlights are from just 3 games). He will be a sophomore next year:

 

Lots of highlight videos of Suggs. I believe his dad runs Baller Swag Elite
 


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