Fleck on KFAN #92noon

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bottlebass said:
This is not a rebuilding job, Fleck said so himself. If you honestly believe this is a rebuilding job do everyone a favor and never post here again.
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Not directed at me, but here is my response. In the spectrum of Gopher football, this may not be a "rebuilding job" but with the way the roster sits, it is disingenuous to claim we are on an "upswing." The Kill/Claeys era showed us that we are a program that tops out at 8 regular season wins and has the occasional drop down to 5 or so. Regardless of the coach, 2017 looked to be somewhat of a regression compared to the results of 2016. I agree that I will be disappointed with less than 5 wins, but the previous regime(s) showed us that 5 wins is a realistic outcome.

Considering the mash unit we have on the OL, a new starting QB, and basically an entire team made up of guys that didn't commit to their current coach (out of high school - not saying they aren't buying in or anything) if we can scrape by with 6 wins and put together a top 25-30 recruiting class, I will be enthusiastic about the future.

I don't think anything I said is really all that outlandish. For the people that are going to raise hell if we win 4 or 5 games, would you have also called for Claeys' job if he had done something similar in 2017?
 

GoldenGopherTilTheEnd said:
So you disagree with Swingman (and PJF) on "Says only has five offensive linemen. Says only one underclass dt." and the FACT that we have to find a starting quarterback?

Just because it's a rebuild compared to a 9 win season doesn't mean this is a ground-up rebuild. Go for false dichotomies much?
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Every team loses players each year. We only lost 13 seniors, most not key contributors. That does not make this a rebuild year. But no, I agree with Fleck, he himself said after getting hired this is NOT a rebuild. His words.
 

Was PJ out in his yard when he was on the phone for this interview?
 

bottlebass said:
Every team loses players each year. We only lost 13 seniors, most not key contributors. That does not make this a rebuild year. But no, I agree with Fleck, he himself said after getting hired this is NOT a rebuild. His words.
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Fine PJF said not a rebuild using what I think is your definition (bare pantry), but I think we've got significant holes that will make it difficult to hit the same 9 wins (or more), so that to me is a rebuild. If we get 6 wins and lose the bowl game, I'm most likely going to be disappointed, but I won't be surprised. If we get 10 wins, I'll be ecstatic and surprised as hell.

Bottomline seems to be lingering resentment against the program for canning Claeys and setting up the program so you can point and say "see, I told you so; Tracy would have had +1, +2, +3 wins over what PJF did." That's what I'm arguing against. If I'm misreading what you're saying, apologies. But also don't go low and tell me to never post here again like what I'm saying is ridiculous or naive.
 

GopherHomer said:
I don't think anything I said is really all that outlandish. For the people that are going to raise hell if we win 4 or 5 games, would you have also called for Claeys' job if he had done something similar in 2017?
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Yes, if he stepped back to 4 wins I would have expected him to be fired. I didn't quote you specifically not to call anyone out, as there are a few of you who have drank so much Fleckaid that even if he only wins 1 game this season you'll still be happy and think he is just the greatest. When in reality, he himself has said this is not a rebuild. We have had 8+ wins in 3 of the last 4 seasons. The program is not at the level it was when kill took over, that was a rebuild.

Regardless of the last 50 years, this is a winning program over the last 4-5 years. Let's plug and play. We should expect winning seasons.
 



Is it true that the Gophers are so young? I remember about mid season last year a couple different announcers say we had the fewest senior starters on offense in the nation (3). Most/all of those guys should be back and older, no? Sure, Gophers lose guys to graduation but so do all the other teams.

I get it that Fleck wants to underpromise (for now) and overdeliver. However, the way he tells it I'm wondering how this team ever won any games, let alone averaged 8 wins a year the past 4 years. I saw a program that had marginal recruiting and punched well above its weight due to solid and stable coaching and quality player development. A team that avoided turnovers and played great special teams. That's what the national voices and stat sheet saw too.

Now, apparently everything is a shambles and guys don't even know how to block, tackle, catch, or even put their pads on correctly, because culture. That's a tack you can take when taking over a sub-4 win team, but it's questionable given the consistent overperformance of talent the past few years.
 

GoldenGopherTilTheEnd said:
Fine PJF said not a rebuild using what I think is your definition (bare pantry), but I think we've got significant holes that will make it difficult to hit the same 9 wins (or more), so that to me is a rebuild. If we get 6 wins and lose the bowl game, I'm most likely going to be disappointed, but I won't be surprised. If we get 10 wins, I'll be ecstatic and surprised as hell.

Bottomline seems to be lingering resentment against the program for canning Claeys and setting up the program so you can point and say "see, I told you so; Tracy would have had +1, +2, +3 wins over what PJF did." That's what I'm arguing against. If I'm misreading what you're saying, apologies. But also don't go low and tell me to never post here again like what I'm saying is ridiculous or naive.
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We don't have to hit 9 wins for people to be happy. Any fan knows we have some difficult positions to fill, for example I've been higher on Leidner than most the last couple years. But this is college football. You lose seniors every year. We didn't lost a core group of players that were our only contributors and last year was a great recruiting class and this year's wasn't bad for the time he had. So yes, calling it a rebuild is ridiculous and naive, especially when the coach himself disagrees with you.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
If people bought tickets because of what Fleck said before they're not changing their mind over this...?
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Ah, what? The season ticket renewal deadline is April 14. Most people are smart enough not to send their money in too early.
 



bottlebass said:
We don't have to hit 9 wins for people to be happy. Any fan knows we have some difficult positions to fill, for example I've been higher on Leidner than most the last couple years. But this is college football. You lose seniors every year. We didn't lost a core group of players that were our only contributors and last year was a great recruiting class and this year's wasn't bad for the time he had. So yes, calling it a rebuild is ridiculous and naive, especially when the coach himself disagrees with you.
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If we get 8 wins or 7 with a win over Becky I'll be happy. And if you look at the WI game lineup, we lost our starting QB, best WR, best OL, two best DTs, both starting CBs (and returner), starting S, two starting LBs, and just found out for sure Winfield will be back. You're just wrong on the impact of the losses. And your whole line of "the coach says we're not rebuilding" is in a thread complaining about how that person is being too negative in stating their prospects... so PJF is taking my definition of rebuild here vs the empty cupboard he was referring to before.

And I do think he's sandbagging to get some positive reaction when he hits 8 wins. And I noticed you didn't respond to my honest question about your intent and motivations, but did bring yourself to go low. Good on you.
 


GoldenGopherTilTheEnd said:
If we get 8 wins or 7 with a win over Becky I'll be happy. And if you look at the WI game lineup, we lost our starting QB, best WR, best OL, two best DTs, both starting CBs (and returner), starting S, two starting LBs, and just found out for sure Winfield will be back. You're just wrong on the impact of the losses. And your whole line of "the coach says we're not rebuilding" is in a thread complaining about how that person is being too negative in stating their prospects... so PJF is taking my definition of rebuild here vs the empty cupboard he was referring to before.

And I do think he's sandbagging to get some positive reaction when he hits 8 wins. And I noticed you didn't respond to my honest question about your intent and motivations, but did bring yourself to go low. Good on you.
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LOL I'm "just wrong" on the impact, yeah OK. My exact words were we have some difficult positions to fill, how is that wrong? But you are wrong, we didn't lose our best DT, this proves you are a joke. Maybe you should go through and see what other teams lost this year, I'd bet it's similar. We say it about wisconsin every year, "they lost so much this will be a tough year for them" and how is that working out? Have to stop making excuses. We were on the cusp of winning our division 2 out of the last 3 years, but we need to rebuild? Yes that is ridiculous to say.

What was your honest question, I must have missed it and would be happy to answer it. There wasn't a ? in your post by the way.
 

bottlebass said:
Every team loses players each year. We only lost 13 seniors, most not key contributors. That does not make this a rebuild year. But no, I agree with Fleck, he himself said after getting hired this is NOT a rebuild. His words.
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So Mitch Leidner, Drew Wolitarsky, Jonah Pirsig, Hank Epke, Scott Epke, Jack Lynn, Jalen Myrick, Damarius Travis and Nick Rallis were not key contributors? Even though they were all starters last year?

What about Tyler Moore and Kiante Hardin who started and Connor Mayes who saw significant time and are also gone?
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
So Mitch Leidner, Drew Wolitarsky, Jonah Pirsig, Hank Epke, Scott Epke, Jack Lynn, Jalen Myrick, Damarius Travis and Nick Rallis were not key contributors? Even though they were all starters last year?

What about Tyler Moore who started and Connor Mayes who saw significant time and are also gone?
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Considering our passing game, I would say our RBs are the key contributors on offense and they are both there. Losing 1 WR who had an OK season isn't much to cry about. I think losing Leidner is a bigger deal than most care to believe due to the hatred towards him here, but you can't argue with him being one of our better QBs ever. Hank and Scott weren't anything special, we still have Richardson. i wouldn't trade Richardson for either or both of them. We played our freshman line backers plenty and should be OK in that department especially when you add in Cashman. For safety does Winfield take over for Travis? Can you remember the last time a freshman defender played as well as Winfield did?

Again go look at the other teams, did they not lose starters too? Why is it such a big deal for us? We had plenty of young contributors this year, stop acting like we lost our whole offense and our whole defense. Plenty of key positions remain in place. The only position on that list that didn't have younger guys contribute would be at QB, but everybody thought Mitch was garbage anyway so you can't use that for your argument all of a sudden.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
So Mitch Leidner, Drew Wolitarsky, Jonah Pirsig, Hank Epke, Scott Epke, Jack Lynn, Jalen Myrick, Damarius Travis and Nick Rallis were not key contributors? Even though they were all starters last year?

What about Tyler Moore and Kiante Hardin who started and Connor Mayes who saw significant time and are also gone?
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So do you have them winning 2 games or 3?
 

bottlebass said:
Considering our passing game, I would say our RBs are the key contributors on offense and they are both there. Losing 1 WR who had an OK season isn't much to cry about. I think losing Leidner is a bigger deal than most care to believe due to the hatred towards him here, but you can't argue with him being one of our better QBs ever. Hank and Scott weren't anything special, we still have Richardson. i wouldn't trade Richardson for either or both of them. We played our freshman line backers plenty and should be OK in that department especially when you add in Cashman. For safety does Winfield take over for Travis? Can you remember the last time a freshman defender played as well as Winfield did?

Again go look at the other teams, did they not lose starters too? Why is it such a big deal for us? We had plenty of young contributors this year, stop acting like we lost our whole offense and our whole defense. Plenty of key positions remain in place. The only position on that list that didn't have younger guys contribute would be at QB, but everybody thought Mitch was garbage anyway so you can't use that for your argument all of a sudden.
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He had the most receiving yards in a season since Decker.

As for Mitch, yeah he wasn't good last year, but he was still a leader and I don't think any QBs on the current roster will be much of an improvement next year. Morgan will hopefully be better but it's not likely as a true Freshman. I think a good portion of Leidner's poor play was that the WRs struggled to get open.

There's not a lot of good talent ready to play at QB, WR, and the OL next year. The OL was bad last year and they lost their two best starters. There was a reason Claeys kept trying to bring in JUCOs, which leads me to believe the young guys are not that good. As good as the last staff was at recruiting and developing defense, they struggled to do the same on offense. It's going to take a few recruiting classes to change that.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
He had the most receiving yards in a season since Decker.

As for Mitch, yeah he wasn't good last year, but he was still a leader and I don't think any QBs on the current roster will be much of an improvement next year. Morgan will hopefully be better but it's not likely as a true Freshman. I think a good portion of Leidner's poor play was that the WRs struggled to get open.

There's not a lot of good talent ready to play at QB, WR, and the OL next year. The OL was bad last year and they lost their two best starters. There was a reason Claeys kept trying to bring in JUCOs, which leads me to believe the young guys are not that good. As good as the last staff was at recruiting and developing defense, they struggled to do the same on offense. It's going to take a few recruiting classes to change that.
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Leidner wasn't good, the WRs struggled to get open, the OL was bad last year...9 wins was a disappointment!
 

Did people not see Mich St last year. Losing a four year QB usually doesn't lead to more wins. We are acting like we weren't just complaining about some of our Big Ten losses this year. I am a major Claeys guy and not fully on the Fleck Aid, but I wasn't expecting more than 8 wins regardless of the coach. 8 wins were on the high side. If we had promising QB play before this year Mitch wouldn't have had held the spot without any doubt the last 2 years. I can't believe people are this unrealistic and expect a step forward with a new system, new coaches, new qb, no oline during the spring introduction to the new system, and we lost our most reliable if not only reliable receiver on offense. Michigan State has had a lot more talent than us and losing a senior QB can take a while before we see positive results. I don't remember the U of M becoming Ohio State or Michigan where we are a plug and play type team.
 


dpodoll68 said:
Leidner wasn't good, the WRs struggled to get open, the OL was bad last year...9 wins was a disappointment!
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Yeah I like beating rivals and ranked teams so you're right it was a disappointment. If those positions were better, they would have won a few of those.

But sure a 4th place B1G West finish was an excellent year. :rolleyes:
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
So Mitch Leidner, Drew Wolitarsky, Jonah Pirsig, Hank Epke, Scott Epke, Jack Lynn, Jalen Myrick, Damarius Travis and Nick Rallis were not key contributors? Even though they were all starters last year?

What about Tyler Moore and Kiante Hardin who started and Connor Mayes who saw significant time and are also gone?
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This looks bad in a vacuum, or if running a pro team. When you consider the mass losses all the other teams have as well, every season...it doesn't stand out.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
He had the most receiving yards in a season since Decker.

As for Mitch, yeah he wasn't good last year, but he was still a leader and I don't think any QBs on the current roster will be much of an improvement next year. Morgan will hopefully be better but it's not likely as a true Freshman. I think a good portion of Leidner's poor play was that the WRs struggled to get open.

There's not a lot of good talent ready to play at QB, WR, and the OL next year. The OL was bad last year and they lost their two best starters. There was a reason Claeys kept trying to bring in JUCOs, which leads me to believe the young guys are not that good. As good as the last staff was at recruiting and developing defense, they struggled to do the same on offense. It's going to take a few recruiting classes to change that.
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And how high is he going to get drafted? Stop acting like we lost top college talent. Our most talented offensive players were our running backs and they are still here.

I think mostly when Leidner had time he made good throws and most of his bad play was on the OL. Some of it was on his receivers not getting open.

Again you are acting like we lost a ton of top talent at QB, WR, and OL when we didn't. They were all average at best for B1G players at their positions. OL has been a problem the last 3 years and we still competed for a division title. I do agree, they seemed to struggle at recruiting and developing offensive players (minus RB and TE). But losing some average seniors like every other team does not make a rebuilding job for the coach, he should be able to figure out how to maintain the level we have had the last 4-5years (6-9 wins) and then hopefully for the love of god get us to the next level and a rose bowl.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Yeah I like beating rivals and ranked teams so you're right it was a disappointment. If those positions were better, they would have won a few of those.

But sure a 4th place B1G West finish was an excellent year. :rolleyes:
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Hypocrite, which is it? Did we lose a ton of talent and have to rebuild or did we lose some guys you wish were better?
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Yeah I like beating rivals and ranked teams so you're right it was a disappointment. If those positions were better, they would have won a few of those.

But sure a 4th place B1G West finish was an excellent year. :rolleyes:
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Considering how poorly these positions played, it's a miracle that we won any games at all! Claeys must be one hell of a coach to extract 9 wins out of this bunch of underperforming losers.
 

GoldenGopherTilTheEnd said:
Yes, this is a rebuild job
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I don't think that means what you think it means. Yes if we were tOSU or Clemson, expecting a 7 win season and a bowl game would be considered a rebuilding year...but at MN, that is now the norm for any coach as far as I am concerned. Fleck is changing the O and D which is fine...he is coach and needs to run his program. But our schedule, our talent returning and the quality of the team he inherited should allow him to win right away and grow from there...
 

bottlebass said:
Hypocrite, which is it? Did we lose a ton of talent and have to rebuild or did we lose some guys you wish were better?
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Hyprocrite? We lost some good starters and don't have a lot of talent to replace them, especially on offense.

It's definitely a rebuild on offense, but the defense should still be solid. We won 8 regular season games because of a cake schedule and a good defense. This year it's going to be tougher.

Look at the S&P ratings. Last year's offense was the worst of the entire Kill/Claeys era, even slightly worse than year 1 with Brewster's recruits. You don't just drastically improve on that by adding true freshman QB, WR, and OL.

The fringe P5 guys Kill/Claeys and staff recruited on offense the last several years continues to show. 2014 was their best offensive year and it has steadily declined since.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Hyprocrite? We lost some good starters and don't have a lot of talent to replace them, especially on offense.

It's definitely a rebuild on offense, but the defense should still be solid. We won 8 regular season games because of a cake schedule and a good defense. This year it's going to be tougher.

Look at the S&P ratings. Last year's offense was the worst of the entire Kill/Claeys era, even slightly worse than year 1 with Brewster's recruits. You don't just drastically improve on that by adding true freshman QB, WR, and OL.

The fringe P5 guys Kill/Claeys and staff recruited on offense the last several years continues to show. 2014 was their best offensive year and it has steadily declined since.
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You keep going back and forth. Did we lose some good starters or did we lose the worst offense? Which is it. If our offense was so bad but our defense should be solid as you claim then why not expect the same this year? We did average 27 ppg last year by the way. Some other stats might be worse for the offense but I have to believe that is the highest during Kills/Claeys years. And last I checked the team with the most points wins the games.

A rebuild on one unit does not make this a rebuilding job for the coach. He took over a team that won 8+ games in 3 of the last 4 seasons. Sorry if some people expect him to win and not rebuild.
 

bottlebass said:
You keep going back and forth. Did we lose some good starters or did we lose the worst offense? Which is it. If our offense was so bad but our defense should be solid as you claim then why not expect the same this year? We did average 27 ppg last year by the way. Some other stats might be worse for the offense but I have to believe that is the highest during Kills/Claeys years. And last I checked the team with the most points wins the games.

A rebuild on one unit does not make this a rebuilding job for the coach. He took over a team that won 8+ games in 3 of the last 4 seasons. Sorry if some people expect him to win and not rebuild.
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A lot of those points came on turnovers and good field position thanks to the defense. That's why I use S&P which factors in those things and the schedule.

They lost what I would consider 4 of their top 6 players on a bad offense. Pirsig, Moore, Wolitarsky, and Leidner. The other two are Smith and Brooks. Lingen is a wild card if he can stay healthy.

If you're losing some of your best players on a bad offense and aren't confident in their replacements, which direction do you think the offense will go next year? Factor in a new system, it's hard for me to expect the offense to improve much over last year.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
A lot of those points came on turnovers and good field position thanks to the defense. That's why I use S&P which factors in those things and the schedule.

They lost what I would consider 4 of their top 6 players on a bad offense. Pirsig, Moore, Wolitarsky, and Leidner. The other two are Smith and Brooks. Lingen is a wild card if he can stay healthy.

If you're losing some of your best players on a bad offense and aren't confident in their replacements, which direction do you think the offense will go next year? Factor in a new better system, from a coach who is all about offense, it's hard for me to NOT expect the offense to improve much over last year.
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FIFY
 

bottlebass said:
Hypocrite, which is it? Did we lose a ton of talent and have to rebuild or did we lose some guys you wish were better?
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Both. The guys we lost weren't that good - but were the best on the roster. Not sure why we are excited about guys that couldn't beat out the mediocre talent we lost.
 

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