Flecks comment about playing FR

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John Galt said:
Claeys didn't survive 9-4, so I agree his odds weren't good if he would have taken a step back this year.

We'll never know how Claeys would have fared in 2017, and that's my point. Posters that say TC was 9-4 last year so anything worse than that under Fleck is a step back have no idea how TC would have fared this year. It's not a complete rebuild, we definitely have some great pieces in place, but there are also enough holes in the roster that chances are neither coach could win 9+ in 2017.
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Tamp...tamp....tamp.......
 

swingman said:
O-line will be much, much better; not generally OK. Be interesting to hear if Bart Miller thinks we lose our two best.

Veterans: See how injuries and roster shakes out, but potentially the Gophers are returning five guys who have started and they are all huge, physically mature fourth and fifth year guys: Greene, Wright, Mayes, Calhoun, Weyler. That should be a great base.

Redshirts: Hear some very good things on Conner Olson. Schlueter was a big time recruit.

Replacing Moore, Pirsig: Greene and Wright both played some tackle last year. Connelly and Oseland got run at tackle. Weyler, Mayes, Olson, Schmitz (#1 ranked class of 2017 center in midwest) can all play center. Sassack and Andries both have college ready size and both had big time recruiting offers.

Connelly and Dovich were guys Kill/Limegrover and Claeys/Miller both had high praise for. Oseland was very highly recruited. All third year guys.

[B]I think the impact Warinner and Callahan will have on this o-line group will be huge and immediate. Warinner is one of, if not THE best, o-line coaches in college football. And Callahan is no unproven, young chicken. Part of staff at WMU that will shortly have put o-line guys with less talent than here in the NFL in back-to-back years. Plus, expect the new strength a[/B]nd conditioning coach to have big impact on o line play.

Improved passing game/qb play will help o-line as well as will returning all three top running backs and hopefully getting Lingen in the mix.
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I feel much more in line with the bullish side of this opinion than the just okay majority stance comments regarding the O-line. Fleck is dancing all over with his comments. He is very remindful of Jerry with his every year so young comments and lowering expectations. It's a lot easier to say I told you so...it's gonna take time. And if it happens...Oh gosh, we won, I must be a good coach.

Our two O-line coaches can both coach. This will be a good unit. The offensive game plan will make the O-line better as well.

In addition to me all along: PJ does seem to be saying unless Tanner Morgan lays down and whimpers in spring practice...I'm expecting him to be my quarterback.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
I heard Fleck on Sunday and instantly thought some people would melt down on here. People have to realize that the foundation of the program was compromised when Kill stepped away, further when Claeys was let go and players dismissed, and with the hiring of Fleck.

Last year was the peak year for Kill/Claeys on the field. One can argue it should have been even better. There are big shoes to fill and some foundation restructuring needed. What Fleck pointed out is completely believable and understandable. We may have to take a step back over the next two years to go forward.

I don't think that is 1-11, but could be 6-6.
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Totally agree. People want to pretend this isn't a 'rebuild' yet they are rebuilding at every position on offense outside of RB, and the DBs on defense. If they lose any of the DTs to injury they are in trouble. The people who can take an objective view at the roster can actually see this.

Last year 19 of the 22 normal starters were in at least their 3rd year of college. What's that number going to be this year? It's likely to be significantly less than that.
 

Fleck has also consistently stated he's not a coach who relies on JUCOs. He will do it, but it is not part of his business model.

This also means freshman will be called to action...maybe sooner than desired.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Totally agree. People want to pretend this isn't a 'rebuild' yet they are rebuilding at every position on offense outside of RB, and the DBs on defense. If they lose any of the DTs to injury they are in trouble. The people who can take an objective view at the roster can actually see this.

Last year 19 of the 22 normal starters were in at least their 3rd year of college. What's that number going to be this year? It's likely to be significantly less than that.
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Every year 15 to 30 guys leave on every team every where. It's how it works. You can make excuses or you can win football games...it literally is a choice!
 


John Galt said:
#1 Rhoda was underwhelming in his lone start. He easily could have had 3 INTs if Maryland felt like catching the ball. Mitch was a solid runner and one of the all-time greats at the QB sneak (Michigan aside). I think it's Mitch's running ability and leadership that we'll miss more than anything, not his arm.
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I think we'll miss Mitch for about one play next year (season opening rutm). He was a terrible quarterback on a team with even worse quarterbacks. He was a hometown kid who played for his hometown school, he was tough, he won some big games, but he was never a good qb. I'd have to say I even liked Weber better, and I didn't like Weber. Anyway, I expect all that will change and we'll have some competent QB play and we'll see if any of those receivers that never saw the field are any good.
 

60's Guy said:
Every year 15 to 30 guys leave on every team every where. It's how it works. You can make excuses or you can win football games...it literally is a choice!
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Who's making an excuse? The current roster is what it is. Many of those teams are filling their holes with other upperclassmen.
 

Look - Every Gopher team is subject to a down year. 2017 is no different...I commend Claeys for what he did in 2016 because 9 wins should always be celebrated with our current construct. Until Fleck can install his system and inject us with better athletes we will always be a 5-9 win team depending on schedule, weird breaks, and injuries. Our schedule is favorable this year so I don't expect too much of a drop off, but talk to me in 2020 to make a determination if the Fleck hire was a success or failure. I know it seems like I am copping out, but any new coach deserves to have a full recruiting cycle before discarded.

It could be that the Claeys' staff was better at coaching the current collection of talent - but that doesn't mean that Fleck couldn't bring our entire program to new heights in the not too distant future.
 

Word said:
You're back!
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Start class later this week, so allowed myself to check in. Really Twitter and reading Bleed's post give you everything you need. It's much more positive.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
This is false. Maye was 28% of the receiving yards in 15, Wolitarsky was 38% in 16. Plus we knew Wolitarsky was coming back this year, and we have no one comparable coming back next year.
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Having a healthy tight end that can catch the ball should more than offset that. The reason Woli had such a high percentage is they didn't have a TE that could catch in 2016.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Start class later this week, so allowed myself to check in. Really Twitter and reading Bleed's post give you everything you need. It's much more positive.
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Twitter is more positive? You must not read the comments. Even p*****h*** is allowed to post on Twitter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

swingman said:
O-line will be much, much better; not generally OK. Be interesting to hear if Bart Miller thinks we lose our two best.

Veterans: See how injuries and roster shakes out, but potentially the Gophers are returning five guys who have started and they are all huge, physically mature fourth and fifth year guys: Greene, Wright, Mayes, Calhoun, Weyler. That should be a great base.

Redshirts: Hear some very good things on Conner Olson. Schlueter was a big time recruit.

Replacing Moore, Pirsig: Greene and Wright both played some tackle last year. Connelly and Oseland got run at tackle. Weyler, Mayes, Olson, Schmitz (#1 ranked class of 2017 center in midwest) can all play center. Sassack and Andries both have college ready size and both had big time recruiting offers.

Connelly and Dovich were guys Kill/Limegrover and Claeys/Miller both had high praise for. Oseland was very highly recruited. All third year guys.

I think the impact Warinner and Callahan will have on this o-line group will be huge and immediate. Warinner is one of, if not THE best, o-line coaches in college football. And Callahan is no unproven, young chicken. Part of staff at WMU that will shortly have put o-line guys with less talent than here in the NFL in back-to-back years. Plus, expect the new strength and conditioning coach to have big impact on o line play.

Improved passing game/qb play will help o-line as well as will returning all three top running backs and hopefully getting Lingen in the mix.
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Good take, hopefully the line is better.
 

PMWinSTP said:
FLeck does not have the QB as a planned part of the run. Leaves rushing to RBs. Don't think Mitch's running will be missed.
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Mitch was productive running the ball last season. He's not a fit for Fleck's offense, but his overall production running the ball will be missed.
 



60's Guy said:
Every year 15 to 30 guys leave on every team every where. It's how it works. You can make excuses or you can win football games...it literally is a choice!
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Michigan St won the B1G in 2015, then went 3-9 last season. Are they making excuses? Is it a choice? Was Dantonio a good coach in 2015, but terrible last year?

Some years are up, some years are down, and some years are average.
 

60's Guy said:
Every year 15 to 30 guys leave on every team every where. It's how it works. You can make excuses or you can win football games...it literally is a choice!
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So if they don't have a center who can snap the ball reliably or a QB that can pass reliably or a WR that can catch reliably, that's a choice?

Obviously, every team loses roughly a quarter of their team every year between graduation and transfers. The problem this year is for whatever reason the Gophers lost a lot of people in specific positions where there's no real answer who is going to play.

As others mentioned as an example, for WR last year we all knew coming in that Wolitarsky would be the guy. Who will be the guy this year? There isn't a wide receiver on this team today that has proven they can reliably catch a ball.

You can say that's an excuse all you want, but if the receivers still on the team drop balls as frequently as they did last year and don't have a go to guy like Wolitarsky this team will lose a lot of games. Coach Fleck can't go back and change Kill's/Claeys' recruiting classes. He can't trade for guys. He has to make do with what he has. That's not a choice.

Yes, they have a pretty good base. There are several positions on this team that are in really good shape. But there are a handful that are so glaring, that it's hard to ignore the impact they might have.
 

John Galt said:
Mitch was productive running the ball last season. He's not a fit for Fleck's offense, but his overall production running the ball will be missed.
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No, it won't. Those yards should be made up with the RBs and a slightly better passing attack with less INTs. Loved Mitch and his tenacity but his rushing will not be missed.
 

John Galt said:
Mitch was productive running the ball last season. He's not a fit for Fleck's offense, but his overall production running the ball will be missed.
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Fleck doesn't have Terrell at QB to use next season. He won't have a QB to rely on with rating of 160 or so and one who completed close to 70% of the passes. And a quality WR in Davis with 97 catches and 19 TDs along with Henry 63/4 and Thompson 42/6..

Fleck may have to tweek things just like JK had to do when he started. JK was very open about shrinking the playbook because he didn't have the players to execute it like he did the last couple of seasons at NIU. No Harnisch, etc.

So JK and TC used the QB as a part of the running game out of necessity and best use of ML's skills. Fleck has no idea who can pass and who can catch. If Fleck can't put a good passing game on the field in 17, look for the QB to pitch in with the running game.
 

Bayfieldgopher said:
Fleck doesn't have Terrell at QB to use next season. He won't have a QB to rely on with rating of 160 or so and one who completed close to 70% of the passes. And a quality WR in Davis with 97 catches and 19 TDs along with Henry 63/4 and Thompson 42/6..

Fleck may have to tweek things just like JK had to do when he started. JK was very open about shrinking the playbook because he didn't have the players to execute it like he did the last couple of seasons at NIU. No Harnisch, etc.

So JK and TC used the QB as a part of the running game out of necessity and best use of ML's skills. Fleck has no idea who can pass and who can catch. If Fleck can't put a good passing game on the field in 17, look for the QB to pitch in with the running game.
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Fleck's passing offense is designed with looks that create simple reads and put the QB in highly successful passing situations. He only needs a little better passing from the QB, with less INTs, which is completely reasonable to expect.
 

Excuses

Lakeville Goldy said:
So if they don't have a center who can snap the ball reliably or a QB that can pass reliably or a WR that can catch reliably, that's a choice?

Obviously, every team loses roughly a quarter of their team every year between graduation and transfers. The problem this year is for whatever reason the Gophers lost a lot of people in specific positions where there's no real answer who is going to play.

As others mentioned as an example, for WR last year we all knew coming in that Wolitarsky would be the guy. Who will be the guy this year? There isn't a wide receiver on this team today that has proven they can reliably catch a ball.

You can say that's an excuse all you want, but if the receivers still on the team drop balls as frequently as they did last year and don't have a go to guy like Wolitarsky this team will lose a lot of games. Coach Fleck can't go back and change Kill's/Claeys' recruiting classes. He can't trade for guys. He has to make do with what he has. That's not a choice.

Yes, they have a pretty good base. There are several positions on this team that are in really good shape. But there are a handful that are so glaring, that it's hard to ignore the impact they might have.
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The Gophers have like 5 legitimate center candidates, they won 9 games with a quarterback who was not a reliable passer, PJ has proven he can coach the wide receivers. Yes, it is all a mindset. Take the high school programs that win every year...why is that? It's coaching...it's the "culture" or the mindset of the person coaching the team. It's not because each year they are blessed with talent. They find a way. Henry Ford: think you can, think you can't either way you are right.
Why did Michigan State lose last year? I have no idea. Maybe it wasn't the head coach...maybe it was an assistant who left who was responsible for their success? Maybe some decisions were made that did not work? Maybe they had too many injuries? I really don't know...I'll agree it can happen but good coaches find a way to make it a wtf happened...to them it is a choice...they are accountable don't let it ever happen again...they fix it.
And PJ recruited 25 or whatever guys to fill the glaring needs. He'll add a couple more between now and the fall. He has 120 people to work with. PJ can find a way to compete in 2017. We did not graduate, lose or transfer out that many difference makers. DB's are thin...if we lose games because we keep getting torched we better be blitzing to force quicker decisions. There are remedies to short comings.

In basketball, Virginia can't score...they have no offensive talent. The man coaches defense. Does not tolerate excuses. They just held North Carolina to 43 points or whatever and won. Virginia is a top 25 team on coaching...on mindset. It's a choice.
Why they have no offensive talent is another discussion.
All I'm ranting against is the excuse that we should be comfortable winning 6 games next year because PJ is new. I just know from life experience that is total BS...it does not have to be that way. I don't know PJ but I trust in his abilities and the coaches he hired more than that. They don't need us making excuses for them. He is going to soft pedal it to the public to protect his team, his coaches and himself. But I am positive he does not believe they will 6 games in 2017. PJ believes it is his choice to do better than that.
 

60's Guy said:
The Gophers have like 5 legitimate center candidates, they won 9 games with a quarterback who was not a reliable passer, PJ has proven he can coach the wide receivers. Yes, it is all a mindset. Take the high school programs that win every year...why is that? It's coaching...it's the "culture" or the mindset of the person coaching the team. It's not because each year they are blessed with talent. They find a way. Henry Ford: think you can, think you can't either way you are right.
Why did Michigan State lose last year? I have no idea. Maybe it wasn't the head coach...maybe it was an assistant who left who was responsible for their success? Maybe some decisions were made that did not work? Maybe they had too many injuries? I really don't know...I'll agree it can happen but good coaches find a way to make it a wtf happened...to them it is a choice...they are accountable don't let it ever happen again...they fix it.
And PJ recruited 25 or whatever guys to fill the glaring needs. He'll add a couple more between now and the fall. He has 120 people to work with. PJ can find a way to compete in 2017. We did not graduate, lose or transfer out that many difference makers. DB's are thin...if we lose games because we keep getting torched we better be blitzing to force quicker decisions. There are remedies to short comings.

In basketball, Virginia can't score...they have no offensive talent. The man coaches defense. Does not tolerate excuses. They just held North Carolina to 43 points or whatever and won. Virginia is a top 25 team on coaching...on mindset. It's a choice.
Why they have no offensive talent is another discussion.
All I'm ranting against is the excuse that we should be comfortable winning 6 games next year because PJ is new. I just know from life experience that is total BS...it does not have to be that way. I don't know PJ but I trust in his abilities and the coaches he hired more than that. They don't need us making excuses for them. He is going to soft pedal it to the public to protect his team, his coaches and himself. But I am positive he does not believe they will 6 games in 2017. PJ believes it is his choice to do better than that.
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Is there a brick wall I can ram my boat through?
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Last year 19 of the 22 normal starters were in at least their 3rd year of college. What's that number going to be this year? It's likely to be significantly less than that.
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Looks like 19 or 20 of 22.

If they run 2 te, 2 rb package:

Lingen, Greene, Calhoun, Mayes, Weyler, Wright, Wozniak, Brooks, Smith, Carter 10 of 11 would be third year or more, 8 would be 4th year or more. I'm assuming he likes Morgan at QB. If he goes with fifth year Rhoda...

If they run single te, single rb package:

Lingen, Greene, Calhoun, Mayes, Weyler, Wright, Smith, Carter, Still and (one of Gentry/Holland/Register) would make 10 of 11 third year or more with 9 fourth year or more.

On defense:

Elmore fourth year, Richardson fourth year, Stelter fourth year, DeLattiboudere third year.

Celestin fourth year, Poock fifth year, Cashman third year.

Shenault third year, McGhee fifth year, Ayinde fifth year, Winfield second year.

So, 10 of 11 on defense? Maybe mix in Kiondre (2nd year), so 9 of 11?

Plus fifth year punter, fourth year kicker, fourth year snapper.
 

Looked at the WMU stats for Terrell and he was a highly rated passer every year he was the starter. Was similar to Mitch this year in his first year of playing.
This shows that the offense PFJ runs is QB friendly. Have the utmost confidence in him and Ciarracco to develop the current crop of QB's and that one will emerge to have better stats than Terrell did at Western his first year.

Here are his stats at WMU
2013 133/251 for 1602 53% 8 TD 8 Int 110.7
2014 250/368 for 3443 68% 26 10 164.4
2015 262/391 for 3522 67% 29 9 162.5
2016 263/377 for 3533 70% 33 4 179.2

Mitch last year
173/307 for 2169 56% 8 TD 12 Int 116.5
 


60's Guy said:
The Gophers have like 5 legitimate center candidates, they won 9 games with a quarterback who was not a reliable passer, PJ has proven he can coach the wide receivers. Yes, it is all a mindset. Take the high school programs that win every year...why is that? It's coaching...it's the "culture" or the mindset of the person coaching the team. It's not because each year they are blessed with talent. They find a way. Henry Ford: think you can, think you can't either way you are right.
Why did Michigan State lose last year? I have no idea. Maybe it wasn't the head coach...maybe it was an assistant who left who was responsible for their success? Maybe some decisions were made that did not work? Maybe they had too many injuries? I really don't know...I'll agree it can happen but good coaches find a way to make it a wtf happened...to them it is a choice...they are accountable don't let it ever happen again...they fix it.
And PJ recruited 25 or whatever guys to fill the glaring needs. He'll add a couple more between now and the fall. He has 120 people to work with. PJ can find a way to compete in 2017. We did not graduate, lose or transfer out that many difference makers. DB's are thin...if we lose games because we keep getting torched we better be blitzing to force quicker decisions. There are remedies to short comings.

In basketball, Virginia can't score...they have no offensive talent. The man coaches defense. Does not tolerate excuses. They just held North Carolina to 43 points or whatever and won. Virginia is a top 25 team on coaching...on mindset. It's a choice.
Why they have no offensive talent is another discussion.
All I'm ranting against is the excuse that we should be comfortable winning 6 games next year because PJ is new. I just know from life experience that is total BS...it does not have to be that way. I don't know PJ but I trust in his abilities and the coaches he hired more than that. They don't need us making excuses for them. He is going to soft pedal it to the public to protect his team, his coaches and himself. But I am positive he does not believe they will 6 games in 2017. PJ believes it is his choice to do better than that.
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Yes. Those making excuses for 6 or less wins clearly have a man crush on PJF and have lost the ability to objectively judge the 2017 season.
 

60's Guy said:
The Gophers have like 5 legitimate center candidates, they won 9 games with a quarterback who was not a reliable passer, PJ has proven he can coach the wide receivers. Yes, it is all a mindset. Take the high school programs that win every year...why is that? It's coaching...it's the "culture" or the mindset of the person coaching the team. It's not because each year they are blessed with talent. They find a way. Henry Ford: think you can, think you can't either way you are right.
Why did Michigan State lose last year? I have no idea. Maybe it wasn't the head coach...maybe it was an assistant who left who was responsible for their success? Maybe some decisions were made that did not work? Maybe they had too many injuries? I really don't know...I'll agree it can happen but good coaches find a way to make it a wtf happened...to them it is a choice...they are accountable don't let it ever happen again...they fix it.
And PJ recruited 25 or whatever guys to fill the glaring needs. He'll add a couple more between now and the fall. He has 120 people to work with. PJ can find a way to compete in 2017. We did not graduate, lose or transfer out that many difference makers. DB's are thin...if we lose games because we keep getting torched we better be blitzing to force quicker decisions. There are remedies to short comings.

In basketball, Virginia can't score...they have no offensive talent. The man coaches defense. Does not tolerate excuses. They just held North Carolina to 43 points or whatever and won. Virginia is a top 25 team on coaching...on mindset. It's a choice.
Why they have no offensive talent is another discussion.
All I'm ranting against is the excuse that we should be comfortable winning 6 games next year because PJ is new. I just know from life experience that is total BS...it does not have to be that way. I don't know PJ but I trust in his abilities and the coaches he hired more than that. They don't need us making excuses for them. He is going to soft pedal it to the public to protect his team, his coaches and himself. But I am positive he does not believe they will 6 games in 2017. PJ believes it is his choice to do better than that.
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Well said.
 

GopherBulldog said:
Yes. Those making excuses for 6 or less wins clearly have a man crush on PJF and have lost the ability to objectively judge the 2017 season.
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Very true...but strange as well. It's like they don't want him to be successful this year, which, for life of me, I can't understand. If he further elevates the team to consistent 8-10 win regular seasons, he's not going anywhere. If he can't find success, he's not going anywhere for the next four years.
 

swingman said:
Looks like 19 or 20 of 22.

If they run 2 te, 2 rb package:

Lingen, Greene, Calhoun, Mayes, Weyler, Wright, Wozniak, Brooks, Smith, Carter 10 of 11 would be third year or more, 8 would be 4th year or more. I'm assuming he likes Morgan at QB. If he goes with fifth year Rhoda...

If they run single te, single rb package:

Lingen, Greene, Calhoun, Mayes, Weyler, Wright, Smith, Carter, Still and (one of Gentry/Holland/Register) would make 10 of 11 third year or more with 9 fourth year or more.

On defense:

Elmore fourth year, Richardson fourth year, Stelter fourth year, DeLattiboudere third year.

Celestin fourth year, Poock fifth year, Cashman third year.

Shenault third year, McGhee fifth year, Ayinde fifth year, Winfield second year.

So, 10 of 11 on defense? Maybe mix in Kiondre (2nd year), so 9 of 11?

Plus fifth year punter, fourth year kicker, fourth year snapper.
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That's making a lot of assumptions and it still would not be surprising to see some transfers after the spring.

The WR and OL play was not good last year. The new coaching staff could have different ideas of who they want to play at these positions. No one has any idea what will happen at QB.

I don't think Cashman is a guaranteed starter at LB. He was really good as a situational pass rusher but may not be an every down LB.

Ayinde and McGhee were passed over last year by Winfield and have had their struggles. Shenault was also underwhelming when he played. They add depth but I'm not sure any of those guys are guaranteed starters either. There are still a lot of questions at a number of positions that likely won't be ironed out until fall practice.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
That's making a lot of assumptions and it still would not be surprising to see some transfers after the spring.

The WR and OL play was not good last year. The new coaching staff could have different ideas of who they want to play at these positions. No one has any idea what will happen at QB.

I don't think Cashman is a guaranteed starter at LB. He was really good as a situational pass rusher but may not be an every down LB.

Ayinde and McGhee were passed over last year by Winfield and have had their struggles. Shenault was also underwhelming when he played. They add depth but I'm not sure any of those guys are guaranteed starters either. There are still a lot of questions at a number of positions that likely won't be ironed out until fall practice.
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It's no more of an assumption than you claiming that there will be significantly less starters with 3 or more years in the program.
 

GopherBulldog said:
Yes. Those making excuses for 6 or less wins clearly have a man crush on PJF and have lost the ability to objectively judge the 2017 season.
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Is there a single poster who thinks we will win less than 6 games? I haven't heard it. What I'm arguing against is the notion that we won 9 last year, so we need to win 9+ in 2017 for it to be a success.
 

John Galt said:
Is there a single poster who thinks we will win less than 6 games? I haven't heard it. What I'm arguing against is the notion that we won 9 last year, so we need to win 9+ in 2017 for it to be a success.
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+1

And at least for me, I think a new coach decreases the likelihood of a 9+ win season but it's certainly not in and of itself the reason. I'm much more concerned about the talent or lack thereof in some specific positions. The only real difference if Claeys was here is Moore may not have transferred and Rhoda probably would have and incoming true freshmen, which are huge question marks regardless. Now I think Rhoda is a non-factor, but when Green's status was up in the air and frankly I forgot about the JC transfer McLaurin it seemed a lot more important. Moore would have been nice to keep, no question as it certainly answered the center position (if he didn't win the job then at least you had someone beat out the guy who started most of last season). But if we had the same team with the old coaching staff, I wouldn't think 9 wins was the floor. I'd think it's closer to the ceiling. I'm certainly hoping to be proven wrong.
 

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