Specifically, what is your minimum threshold to call 2017 season a success?

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It's interesting that Bob L and others point out that 9-4 is one data point, yet want to assume that the future was nothing but bright b/c of that one data point.
 


bottlebass said:
You mean having a program with exceptional STUDENT athletes? Things like GPA and graduation?
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Sure, most coaches believe that those contribute to success. But coaches are evaluated on wins, not GPA alone. I'm not arguing that.
Player conduct also contributes to wins. Moral leadership as well. Lots of things contribute to a winning program
 

KillerGopherFan said:
Sure, most coaches believe that those contribute to success. But coaches are evaluated on wins, not GPA alone. I'm not arguing that.
Player conduct also contributes to wins. Moral leadership as well. Lots of things contribute to a winning program
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOH back to the a few freshman (basically still kids) made a mistake before school even started for most of them. And the coach and culture of the team is to blame. We can just ignore all the positives of the culture surrounding the team and focus on the mistake of 4% of the players. Gotcha. You are one of thoooooooooooooose people.
 

bottlebass said:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOH back to the a few freshman (basically still kids) made a mistake before school even started for most of them. And the coach and culture of the team is to blame. We can just ignore all the positives of the culture surrounding the team and focus on the mistake of 4% of the players. Gotcha. You are one of thoooooooooooooose people.
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Wow, minimizing the significance of moral leadership. You're one of thoooooose people.
 








KillerGopherFan said:
Sure, most coaches believe that those contribute to success. But coaches are evaluated on wins, not GPA alone. I'm not arguing that.
Player conduct also contributes to wins. Moral leadership as well. Lots of things contribute to a winning program
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Great, glad we agree. Regular season: 8 in 2017, 9 in 2018, 10+ in 2019 (chance to also run the table). Sounds like building an elite program to me.
 

bottlebass said:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOH back to the a few freshman (basically still kids) made a mistake before school even started for most of them. And the coach and culture of the team is to blame. We can just ignore all the positives of the culture surrounding the team and focus on the mistake of 4% of the players. Gotcha. You are one of thoooooooooooooose people.
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I'm not going to argue the sexual allegations b/c that's a very nuanced situation that has lots of complicated circumstances, much of which I believe the players were unfairly treated.
But, I also remember when Coach Kill kicked a player off the team for stealing another athlete's iPhone. Sexual misconduct>iPhone theft. Admittedly more complicated.
That set a standard that was good IMO. And lots of Gopher fans applauded it.
 

bottlebass said:
How much impact can you have on kids in just a few months? It takes time to change.
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BS! If a coach doesn't lay the law down when players walk on campus, that's on him.
If they violate that law, they should be gone. Then future freshman will understand what the law is and means.
 




KillerGopherFan said:
I'm not going to argue the sexual allegations b/c that's a very nuanced situation that has lots of complicated circumstances, much of which I believe the players were unfairly treated.
But, I also remember when Coach Kill kicked a player off the team for stealing another athlete's iPhone. Sexual misconduct>iPhone theft. Admittedly more complicated.
That set a standard that was good IMO. And lots of Gopher fans applauded it.
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Do you remember when Claeys kicked a WR off the team for fighting?
 

KillerGopherFan said:
BS! If a coach doesn't lay the law down when players walk on campus, that's on him.
If they violate that law, they should be gone. Then future freshman will understand what the law is and means.
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So if you were in charge of a football team of young men your law would be they can't have sex while they are on the team? Or just after games?
 

bottlebass said:
He doesn't have to offer a specific win total. His exact words were "build on last years record". That means his expectation is we will improve on last years record. Pretty simple. His expectation is 9+ wins. That is where mine is as well.
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Just a few posts ago you were happy beating Wisconsin for the entire game, not just 1/2.

But I still say fleck was 13-1 last year so anything less than the national championship is going backward. Imaging how the new WMU coach must feel!!!
 

bottlebass said:
Do you remember when Claeys kicked a WR off the team for fighting?
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No one outside of the program knows what Brian Smith did outside of the fact that the fight was the last straw. It was clearly stated that it wasn't this one event. And, it was after the events of Sept.
So, good for TC. He probably did the right thing. Maybe Smith would've been better if TC had set better expectations. Maybe not.
But, he's still responsible for the conduct of 100% of his players.
We're only talking about one aspect of a coach's responsibility. I gave an example of how Kill dealt with a one time theft. I think Kill better communicated expectations for player conduct.
 

bottlebass said:
So if you were in charge of a football team of young men your law would be they can't have sex while they are on the team? Or just after games?
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Ridiculous question. This obviously was a highly questionable circumstance. So much so that several players didn't get involved and the player in charge of the recruit got him out as soon as he found out about it. Just not soon enough.
 

bottlebass said:
So if you were in charge of a football team of young men your law would be they can't have sex while they are on the team? Or just after games?
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And, as I have said before, I talked to my own sons before they left for college. I told them to treat women with respect, even if they don't respect themselves. To not get into situations that could flip on them b/c it can get them in a load of trouble. Be careful! That's as a parent.
As a coach, if the player violates that kind of moral and rational sense, I'm going to tell them that there is very little that I'm going to be able to do to defend you, so don't expect it.
 

bottlebass said:
So if you were in charge of a football team of young men your law would be they can't have sex while they are on the team? Or just after games?
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Or with a recruit present? Or in a manner guaranteed to cause negative attention for the program if it becomes public, which is very likely when players are recording it?
 

So the assumption here is TC never warned the kids about these situations? Get real.


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Spoofin said:
So the assumption here is TC never warned the kids about these situations? Get real.


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Actions speak louder than words.
 

KillerGopherFan said:
And, as I have said before, I talked to my own sons before they left for college. I told them to treat women with respect, even if they don't respect themselves. To not get into situations that could flip on them b/c it can get them in a load of trouble. Be careful! That's as a parent.
As a coach, if the player violates that kind of moral and rational sense, I'm going to tell them that there is very little that I'm going to be able to do to defend you, so don't expect it.
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Your sons are lucky. Not every teenager has a father like you. The coach has to deal with a lot of those teenagers and like I said before you can't change them in a couple months. The goal is to take the kids and graduate the men. A lot of the kids think of the coach as their father. I'm sure your sons made mistakes. Every college age kid will make mistakes. Mistakes are what we learn from. Can you imagine a world where people can't even make one mistake? That's what you want out of a football team of 18-23 year olds? You aren't living in reality.
 


bottlebass said:
Your sons are lucky. Not every teenager has a father like you. The coach has to deal with a lot of those teenagers and like I said before you can't change them in a couple months. The goal is to take the kids and graduate the men. A lot of the kids think of the coach as their father. I'm sure your sons made mistakes. Every college age kid will make mistakes. Mistakes are what we learn from. Can you imagine a world where people can't even make one mistake? That's what you want out of a football team of 18-23 year olds? You aren't living in reality.
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Heck, I made mistakes as a college kid and part of the reason I point this out to my sons.
Getting kicked out of the program isn't a death sentence for a CFB player. As the expelled have done, they're moving on to a different school. Hopefully the lesson is learned.
And no, you can't stop some mistakes from happening, but you can set standards and consequences along with regular reminders. And when any of those standards are violated, you hold players accountable. If you do that with smaller infractions, you minimize bigger lapses of judgment. If not, they're gone and have a lesser chance to start somewhere else. That's life. Try not to F up.
 


KillerGopherFan said:
Heck, I made mistakes as a college kid and part of the reason I point this out to my sons.
Getting kicked out of the program isn't a death sentence for a CFB player. As the expelled have done, they're moving on to a different school. Hopefully the lesson is learned.
And no, you can't stop some mistakes from happening, but you can set standards and consequences along with regular reminders. And when any of those standards are violated, you hold players accountable. If you do that with smaller infractions, you minimize bigger lapses of judgment. If not, they're gone and have a lesser chance to start somewhere else. That's life. Try not to F up.
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So what exactly are you accusing Claeys of then? How is any of this his fault like you claimed. You yourself made mistakes in college (so did I, many of them). Kids will make mistakes no matter what. This happens at every university and in every football program, people need to stop pretending like there was something special going on here and Claeys is to blame.
 

Spoofin said:
You mean like accepting walk-ons with criminal pasts?
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I would only evaluate each on a case by case situation. As I suggested above, people deserve second chances. Probably not as good as their first. But they'd certainly be on a short leash.
And PJF may have different standards than I would, but it's his program to succeed or fail with.
 

There is no way to know what Claeys would have done next year, or in the future.

I could say that the US would be better off if Hillary had won the election, and there's no way to prove or disprove the statement. I could say the Gopher Men's BB program would be better off if Tubby was still coaching, and there's no way to prove or disprove the statement.

SO, when people say we'll be better off in 2 or 3 years under Fleck than we would have been under Claeys, it's meaningless. There's no way to prove or disprove the statement.

Claeys had 1 full year as HC of a program, with input over hiring staff. No one can say what would have happened going forward. The program might have gone in the tank, or they might have won a conference title. We don't know. We'll never know.

I just wish the Fleck supporters would stop using that argument as justification. I will say this - if - for any reason - the Gophers win 5 or 6 games next year, there will be people on this board claiming the Gophers would have have a better record with Claeys as coach. And there will be no way to prove or disprove that statement, either.
 

KillerGopherFan said:
I would only evaluate each on a case by case situation. As I suggested above, people deserve second chances. Probably not as good as their first. But they'd certainly be on a short leash.
And PJF may have different standards than I would, but it's his program to succeed or fail with.
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You stated that the event of Sept 2nd was because TC didn't set the right standards. I am now asking you if PJF is responsible for the 2 freshmen on his team that committed armed robbery as well. I would say no to both, but certainly you won't use a different standard for PJF. Certainly not.

Stop side-stepping and answer.


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