Specifically, what is your minimum threshold to call 2017 season a success?

It's obvious by the type of responses we are seeing on here, there are many who want to see Fleck fail by some made up "consensus threshold".

Also, many of you seem to have no clue what culture is, which is why none of you seem to understand the undertaking that it is to change it.
We've had a non-Championship culture for about 50 years.

Now you expect a new head coach to change that over summer break and somehow manage to win more than 5-6 games?


Some of you are like, "Oh, things weren't so bad".

It doesn't matter. If you are under going a culture change that was type B, type D, Type W, and you want to change it to type A. It doesn't matter how successful the old one was because it's a culture change.


At least be respectful in your responses instead of trying to start a flame war which many Fleck-haters seem to be doing by name calling and putting up false quotes to diminish the opinions who are looking at this more realistically.
.

Many posters, including myself, simply disagree with your positions. This does not mean we are Fleck haters who want him to fail. I'm not the first to point this out to you. You've worked hard to explain your rationales and educate us on all things culture related. It appears we remain unconvinced, just as none of us has convinced you of anything. Might be time to accept the differences in opinion and move on. Your recent calls to begin banning those who have offended you do not seem to be helping your case.
 

This whole argument is a lot of semantics. What does winning less games in 2017 mean... Culture change? Coaching staff change? Harder schedule? Less talent? Yes, Yes, Yes, Maybe, and all of the above. Comparing 2016 to 2017 is comparing apples to oranges.

I agree...what if Fleck goes 6-6 in his first season and they beat both Iowa and Nebraska but they lose to Purdue and Northwestern? There are just so many variables and factors to consider. What if they lose 3 games in OT or on the last possession? Are they getting blown out each game by 20+ points? Each team usually has a game or two that can go either way as well.

I could see Fleck winning just 6 games this year but I also would not be surprised if they win 9 games. You can't possibly set a "threshold" on wins alone because there are too many factors. Injuries can also make or break a season. 2016 was a relatively healthy season unlike 2015.
 

Many posters, including myself, simply disagree with your positions. This does not mean we are Fleck haters who want him to fail. I'm not the first to point this out to you. You've worked hard to explain your rationales and educate us on all things culture related. It appears we remain unconvinced, just as none of us has convinced you of anything. Might be time to accept the differences in opinion and move on. Your recent calls to begin banning those who have offended you do not seem to be helping your case.
I think there's about as much consensus in this as there is that President Trump is good for the USA, and the arguments are about as fruitful.
 

I'll say 8 regular season wins is the minimum to call it a success. The only game I see on the schedule where we will be big underdogs is at Michigan. But I also don't see many games where we will be huge favorites -- vs Buffalo, vs MTSU, maybe vs Illinois. So lose to Michigan, win the three as big favorites, and go 5-3 in the others. That'd be pretty good. Tough to say much about the bowl game when we don't even know who we play yet.

It really depends though. If we start slow, say 3-3 through the first 6, then go 4-2 over the last six (which would likely include either 1-1 or 2-0 against Iowa/Wisconsin) then I'll feel pretty good about the direction of the program.
 

More important than Ws & Ls this coming season is - what are the Gophers coaching staff doing that will impact long term our championship aspirations.

So, it won't bother me if they win less than expected. I won't feel the disappointment when the Gophers do not measure up to the yardstick that I set for the season. This is as long as I know they are working on all the minutae details like fundamentals that will put together a system that wins more games than they lose with championships to boot.
 





I'm mostly hopeful that things don't hit rock bottom in year 1 like they did under our last couple of new coaches hired from outside. Fleck's inheriting much more than Kill did, and a little more than Brew did. I'll go with a simple 7-5 winning the ones we're supposed to and losing all the big ones.
 




How does anyone in here even know what the "culture" is?
From Google definition:
the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group.

synonyms: customs, traditions, heritage, habits, ways, mores, values

the attitudes and behavior characteristic of a particular social group.
 

How do you make an adjustment without changing something?

To me change is going in a completely new and opposite direction as before. That is not what needs to happen with the football program. The culture was good to great already. No need to blow it up. Put emphasis on certain areas, but all in all it doesn't need to change.

The bigger change needs to take place outside the football program with fans and none of those culture changes should impact the on field product.
 

It's obvious by the type of responses we are seeing on here, there are many who want to see Fleck fail by some made up "consensus threshold".

Also, many of you seem to have no clue what culture is, which is why none of you seem to understand the undertaking that it is to change it.
We've had a non-Championship culture for about 50 years.

Now you expect a new head coach to change that over summer break and somehow manage to win more than 5-6 games?


Some of you are like, "Oh, things weren't so bad".

It doesn't matter. If you are under going a culture change that was type B, type D, Type W, and you want to change it to type A. It doesn't matter how successful the old one was because it's a culture change.


At least be respectful in your responses instead of trying to start a flame war which many Fleck-haters seem to be doing by name calling and putting up false quotes to diminish the opinions who are looking at this more realistically.
.

Of all the questions that arise from this very entertaining thread, to me the most pressing is: What the heck is a flame war?
 



To me change is going in a completely new and opposite direction as before. That is not what needs to happen with the football program. The culture was good to great already. No need to blow it up. Put emphasis on certain areas, but all in all it doesn't need to change.

The bigger change needs to take place outside the football program with fans and none of those culture changes should impact the on field product.
Coaches pretty much use the same or similar values to instill in their programs (effort, integrity, perseverance, etc.), but the process, methods, terminology, and diligence of instilling those values can be quite different. Likely dramatic in this case. It is one of the most defining aspects of a program and differentiates one program from another.
Even on this forum, some posters have clearly made their distaste for PJF's style and enthusiasm made. If you're a player on this team, you'll be living in it. That is a significant culture change.
 

I agree...what if Fleck goes 6-6 in his first season and they beat both Iowa and Nebraska but they lose to Purdue and Northwestern? There are just so many variables and factors to consider. What if they lose 3 games in OT or on the last possession? Are they getting blown out each game by 20+ points? Each team usually has a game or two that can go either way as well.

I could see Fleck winning just 6 games this year but I also would not be surprised if they win 9 games. You can't possibly set a "threshold" on wins alone because there are too many factors. Injuries can also make or break a season. 2016 was a relatively healthy season unlike 2015.

Real simple, read the thread title and OP, and don't post on the thread if you don't want to answer based on the premise.
 

I have tried to explain this to the Fleck supporters, and they seem unwilling or unable to understand.

I am A Gopher Fan. I want to see the Gophers succeed. By extension, that means I want to see Fleck succeed.

BUT - BUT - BUT - BUT: I liked Claeys as a coach, and I just don't understand why the Fleck people seem to have this need to denigrate and dismiss everything that Kill and Claeys brought to this program.

Remember where this program was under Brewster? Take a look at the program today. It is in a better place. Better overall talent - players going to class - getting good grades. The program is better off now than it was when Kill and Claeys took over. yes, there was an incident - but that does not negate all of the positive things that took place over the last few years.

yes, there is still room for improvement. BUT, this is not a program in disarray.

And, I still maintain that the term "culture" is being used in so many ways as to become virtually meaningless. Just repeating the word over and over again does not imbue the term with some magical significance.

I AM a Gopher fan. BUT - if the Fleck people keep bashing Claeys and denying the progress this program has made, you make it harder for me and others in my camp to accept Fleck.

YOU ARE DEFEATING YOUR OWN PURPOSE. WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
 

Coaches pretty much use the same or similar values to instill in their programs (effort, integrity, perseverance, etc.), but the process, methods, terminology, and diligence of instilling those values can be quite different. Likely dramatic in this case. It is one of the most defining aspects of a program and differentiates one program from another.
Even on this forum, some posters have clearly made their distaste for PJF's style and enthusiasm made. If you're a player on this team, you'll be living in it. That is a significant culture change.

I agree that they all use similar values and the process may be different. There is some change that will take place.
I also believe that the current team has a very solid base of values or culture that were instilled in them by Kill/Claeys. Saying we have to wait to see success because of the culture change doesn't fit with what this program has accomplished since Kill took over AND with the switch to Cleays in mid year. They really didn't miss a beat and I for one feel that the current players - not the recruits - are up to the task of making the switch, because they have the talent and were outstanding reps of the program.

PJF has walked into a great situation. We should see continued improvement going forward. There may be some bumps along the way, but not major steps backward and to me only winning 6 games next year would be a major step backward.
 

I have tried to explain this to the Fleck supporters, and they seem unwilling or unable to understand.

I am A Gopher Fan. I want to see the Gophers succeed. By extension, that means I want to see Fleck succeed.

BUT - BUT - BUT - BUT: I liked Claeys as a coach, and I just don't understand why the Fleck people seem to have this need to denigrate and dismiss everything that Kill and Claeys brought to this program.

Remember where this program was under Brewster? Take a look at the program today. It is in a better place. Better overall talent - players going to class - getting good grades. The program is better off now than it was when Kill and Claeys took over. yes, there was an incident - but that does not negate all of the positive things that took place over the last few years.

yes, there is still room for improvement. BUT, this is not a program in disarray.

And, I still maintain that the term "culture" is being used in so many ways as to become virtually meaningless. Just repeating the word over and over again does not imbue the term with some magical significance.

I AM a Gopher fan. BUT - if the Fleck people keep bashing Claeys and denying the progress this program has made, you make it harder for me and others in my camp to accept Fleck.

YOU ARE DEFEATING YOUR OWN PURPOSE. WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

Your last line goes both ways and that is why every thread turns into the same crap. And it's a lot of the same people. It's almost always the same people trying to put fleck down. Fleck isn't responsible for TC getting fired. A lot of people need to come to terms with that. And posting a 1 line smart*** comment to every post complimentary to fleck doesn't help either.

There have been incidents that have drawn the attention and ire of Kim Hewitt previously. I'm not privy to what all those incidents were, but there were multiple problems (as I'm sure there are in many programs). Like TC or not, he had a serious obligation to impress on upon his players they had to be on their best behavior at all times. He may have really tried and those players didn't listen. Sexual preferences aside, involving a recruit and recording and texting people to show up straight up DUMB!

Kill and TC and limegrover and Sawvel certainly helped the program a TON. I would hope everyone appreciates and acknowledges that. That doesn't mean people can't and shouldn't be excited for Fleck. The Honda Accord was real reliable and solid, but this new sports car is really exciting. Hopefully it will bd exciting and dependable.
 

I agree that they all use similar values and the process may be different. There is some change that will take place.
I also believe that the current team has a very solid base of values or culture that were instilled in them by Kill/Claeys. Saying we have to wait to see success because of the culture change doesn't fit with what this program has accomplished since Kill took over AND with the switch to Cleays in mid year. They really didn't miss a beat and I for one feel that the current players - not the recruits - are up to the task of making the switch, because they have the talent and were outstanding reps of the program.

PJF has walked into a great situation. We should see continued improvement going forward. There may be some bumps along the way, but not major steps backward and to me only winning 6 games next year would be a major step backward.

Well done. Based on his various comments, I think PJ agrees that this is a great situation as well. He'll find out in Spring practice that this team is hard working, relentless and talented. I can't wait to see who the next crop is who step up given the opportunity. Most the SO and RS SO had good amounts of playing time.
 

I agree with Smash'em Gophs!
 

I'm not going to sit here and proclaim why every argument develops on Gopherhole, but I think two terms cause a lot of debate: "Culture" and "Step Back."

I don't believe the word culture, when Fleck uses it, has anything to do with the incident of the past year (not weighing in as that has been discussed to death). Culture is one of his words from his binder that has specific meanings. From what he has said, 'culture' means bringing people together...that means players, fans, coaches, and media members. I'm not quite sure what that means, but I think it has more to do with his specific view of the world than it does with any particular shortcoming of the previous regime.

As for "step back" - I feel like several people on this board have set lines in the sand as to what will quantify a step back in 2017. Outside of the fact that it is purely a subjective term, I just don't think 2017 really matters all that much. If Coyle's vision of Fleck is true, it was to elevate our program to a point of winning Big 10 West championships...which wasn't going to happen in 2017 regardless of coach. I'm not a troll that thinks people on here are hoping for failure, but I do believe there is a faction here that because of how the administration went about this change would feel satisfaction if it didn't work out - mostly stemming from a belief that the powers that be within the U are shady or too liberal (not sure if that's the right term - don't freak out politically).

In my opinion, it really comes down to this: If Fleck leaves/is fired before he elevates the program beyond what Claeys did, it was a failure. If we reach new heights, then it was a shrewd move no matter the administrative process. He is a new coach, though, and I'm willing to give him about 3 years to show me the direction of 'his' program. Plus - I happen to like his personality so I am going to Row The Boat along the way. My two cents.
 

If Coyle's vision of Fleck is true, it was to elevate our program to a point of winning Big 10 West championships...which wasn't going to happen in 2017 regardless of coach.

Why not? We were right in the hunt for the Big Ten West championship in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
 

I'm not going to sit here and proclaim why every argument develops on Gopherhole, but I think two terms cause a lot of debate: "Culture" and "Step Back."

I don't believe the word culture, when Fleck uses it, has anything to do with the incident of the past year (not weighing in as that has been discussed to death). Culture is one of his words from his binder that has specific meanings. From what he has said, 'culture' means bringing people together...that means players, fans, coaches, and media members. I'm not quite sure what that means, but I think it has more to do with his specific view of the world than it does with any particular shortcoming of the previous regime.

As for "step back" - I feel like several people on this board have set lines in the sand as to what will quantify a step back in 2017. Outside of the fact that it is purely a subjective term, I just don't think 2017 really matters all that much. If Coyle's vision of Fleck is true, it was to elevate our program to a point of winning Big 10 West championships...which wasn't going to happen in 2017 regardless of coach. I'm not a troll that thinks people on here are hoping for failure, but I do believe there is a faction here that because of how the administration went about this change would feel satisfaction if it didn't work out - mostly stemming from a belief that the powers that be within the U are shady or too liberal (not sure if that's the right term - don't freak out politically).

In my opinion, it really comes down to this: If Fleck leaves/is fired before he elevates the program beyond what Claeys did, it was a failure. If we reach new heights, then it was a shrewd move no matter the administrative process. He is a new coach, though, and I'm willing to give him about 3 years to show me the direction of 'his' program. Plus - I happen to like his personality so I am going to Row The Boat along the way. My two cents.

By all accounts, Coyle has said this was a home run hire in every aspect. The program is in very good shape coming off a 9-win season that included a great bowl win. Given all that, why should we lower expectations for this year, or as you put it, think that "it doesn't really matter all that much"...?
 

Admins, can we ban this user?
He's obviously trolling and trying to start a flame-war.

So anybody who teases or taunts you should be banned? Need to thicken your skin a bit my friend- wait- Is this Donald? Welcome Mr President!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

By all accounts, Coyle has said this was a home run hire in every aspect. The program is in very good shape coming off a 9-win season that included a great bowl win. Given all that, why should we lower expectations for this year, or as you put it, think that "it doesn't really matter all that much"...?

How is a program in very good shape when four players were just expelled? :confused:
 

By all accounts, Coyle has said this was a home run hire in every aspect. The program is in very good shape coming off a 9-win season that included a great bowl win. Given all that, why should we lower expectations for this year, or as you put it, think that "it doesn't really matter all that much"...?

You can do whatever you want. I was merely explaining my mindset.
 

Why not? We were right in the hunt for the Big Ten West championship in 2 of the last 3 seasons.

I suppose that was just speculation on my part...I hope I'm wrong and we do win the West. I don't really see it, though...wisconsin is clearly the favorite.
 

By all accounts, Coyle has said this was a home run hire in every aspect. The program is in very good shape coming off a 9-win season that included a great bowl win. Given all that, why should we lower expectations for this year, or as you put it, think that "it doesn't really matter all that much"...?

Because this hire wasn't just made for 2017. If the Gophers go only 6-6 in 2017 but in the 2018 season wins the national championship, is it not a home run hire?
 

Because this hire wasn't just made for 2017. If the Gophers go only 6-6 in 2017 but in the 2018 season wins the national championship, is it not a home run hire?

People make fun of me and others for predicting what Claeys would have done in 2017, but claiming 6 wins is a HUGE step back for the program because of the coaching change implicates the same blind speculation. Depending on your point of view and desired outcome we are all hypocrites. The only common theme should be that we all want the best for the public university in the Twin Cities. Josh - obviously I am not attacking you, but just referencing your post to try and make a point.
 





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