Incredible statistical improvements at WMU under Fleck.

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Trisuper said:
Pompous Elitists apparently wants things both ways. Arkansas may have better players because they recruited better players. But about half of the teams that year in and year out that make the top 20 in recruiting are from the SEC. So Arkansas' defenses played against many of the very best players in the country week after week--especially on their side of the SEC.
Also, a big part of the results you get on offense or defense surrounds the players you recruit. Pompous Elitist says Claeys got more done with less, but who recruited the players with whom Claeys worked?
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And TC defenders were saying the Offense was actually good b/c it scored 29 pts/game against the easiest schedule in years, even though last season's Offense had actually declined in passing and balance. Now, TC's Defensive stats were hurt by an underperforming Offense.
It's hard to follow the logic of defending TC.
I've said before I thought he was a good Xs & Os DC, but was in way over his head as a head coach. But, I don't think anybody is going to be knocking down his door to be their DC. There have been jobs open and he's still in Kansas. I'd have to give Sawvel a lot of credit as he was the primary DB coach in Kill's years at NIU and Minnesota. He recruited many of those kids and coached them up, and it has been the strongest position group for the staff.
TC was a poor leader of the football program and Gopher Football is better having moved on.
 

KillerGopherFan said:
And TC defenders were saying the Offense was actually good b/c it scored 29 pts/game against the easiest schedule in years. Now, TC's Defensive stats were hurt by an underperforming Offense.
It's hard to follow the logic of defending TC.
I've said before I thought he was a good Xs & Os DC, but was in way over his head as a head coach. But, I don't think anybody is going to be knocking down his door to be their DC. There have been jobs open and he's still in Kansas. I'd have to give Sawvel a lot of credit as he was the primary DB coach in Kill's years at NIU and Minnesota. He recruited many of those kids and coached them up, and it has been the strongest position group for the staff.
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Actually I'm on record as saying the offense was pretty sub-par in 2016 but had the great benefit of an extremely good turnover ratio. Those short fields are a recipe for a very nice bump in ppg, on the order of at least 4-5 ppg. It was a bit of a fluky year in terms of turnovers, at least the first 3/4 of the season.

I don't understand the need of some of you to tear down the Claeys/Sawvel defenses. They were consistently the best and most entertaining part of the team during that era. Elite? No and nobody has said that. Overachieving? Yep, by a nice margin. Singing their (Claeys/Sawvel) praises takes nothing away from Fleck or what he may do over his era here.
 

Who's "tearing down Claeys/Sawvel defenses?" Some of us are just trying to provide some balance at a site where Kill/Claeys defenders talk like Gopher defenses have been very, very strong in recent years. They have not been. They've been slightly better than average--no better, now worse.
Also, if the defenses "overachieved" that could only be in relation to the talent that was put on the field. If you're going to make that statement, don't you have to say the recruiting underachieved?
Finally, an interesting and hopeful possibility with Fleck is that he has hired assistant coaches that have worked at jobs way above those in the Missouri Valley Conference (Southern Illinois) and the MAC (Northern Illinois). Kill's staff had been together forever. That was good and bad. The bad came from their combined lack of experience at the highest levels of D1 football. Fleck worked at Ohio State, as did his newly hired offensive line coach. Fleck's new defensive head came from Arkansas in the SEC. His O/C coached the Ravens' Joe Flacco in college. Not bad.
 

Anyone think Fleck would have botched the final 30 seconds of the Michigan game? TC was in over his head.
 

TC was not in over his head. TC learned an awful lot as a HC in his time and I feel he was understanding what it took to be a HC and would have been even better in the years to come. He won't get that chance here, now it is PJ's time and I fully support him and hope he can build off of what was established by Kill and Claeys
Atlanta showed last night that coaches make bad decisions all the time. Some are worse than others, but they do happen.
 


Trisuper said:
Who's "tearing down Claeys/Sawvel defenses?"
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Many on this thread.

Trisuper said:
Some of us are just trying to provide some balance at a site where Kill/Claeys defenders talk like Gopher defenses have been very, very strong in recent years. They have not been.
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Compared to the average Minnesota defense of the last 50 years? They absolutely have been. (P.S., a fan site doesn't need "balance". We're supposed to be biased. This isn't the media.)

Trisuper said:
They've been slightly better than average--no better, now worse.
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Compared to the rest of the Big Ten? Sure, but put that in context of many Minnesota defenses at the bottom of the Big Ten, some historically bad.

Trisuper said:
Also, if the defenses "overachieved" that could only be in relation to the talent that was put on the field. If you're going to make that statement, don't you have to say the recruiting underachieved?
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No, you can say that the output was better than the input. It doesn't necessarily mean that the input was terrible.

Trisuper said:
Finally, an interesting and hopeful possibility with Fleck is that he has hired assistant coaches that have worked at jobs way above those in the Missouri Valley Conference (Southern Illinois) and the MAC (Northern Illinois).
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So did both Kill and Claeys.

Trisuper said:
Fleck worked at Ohio State
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Where somebody worked as a GA is almost entirely meaningless.

Trisuper said:
His O/C coached the Ravens' Joe Flacco in college. Not bad.
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Coaching in I-AA is evidence of working at jobs way above those in the MVC and the MAC? Huh?
 

KillerGopherFan said:
And TC defenders were saying the Offense was actually good b/c it scored 29 pts/game against the easiest schedule in years, even though last season's Offense had actually declined in passing and balance. Now, TC's Defensive stats were hurt by an underperforming Offense.
It's hard to follow the logic of defending TC.
I've said before I thought he was a good Xs & Os DC, but was in way over his head as a head coach. But, I don't think anybody is going to be knocking down his door to be their DC. There have been jobs open and he's still in Kansas. I'd have to give Sawvel a lot of credit as he was the primary DB coach in Kill's years at NIU and Minnesota. He recruited many of those kids and coached them up, and it has been the strongest position group for the staff.
TC was a poor leader of the football program and Gopher Football is better having moved on.
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This was the best post I read all weekend!
 

From Trisuper "Also, if the defenses "overachieved" that could only be in relation to the talent that was put on the field. If you're going to make that statement, don't you have to say the recruiting underachieved?"

Their recruiting didn't underachieve. When they came to the U, the program was not in very good shape. No top player wanted to play here. They were able to find guys that most didn't want and turn them into players. Wouldn't call that underachieving.
 

You have twisted my statements to serve your own purposes in every regard here. Who did Kill or Claeys hire that made their staffs less insular? What were their pedigrees? The larger point about "coaching up" Joe Flacco is that the new O/C has a proven track record (especially at WMU, which defeated NIU in 3 of the last 4 years) of developing quarterbacks than anything Kill and his staff did over SIX years.
Being at Ohio State in any capacity (especially in a year when they almost won the national championship) has meaning, particularly in comparison to a coaching staff that spent most of its years coaching at the lowest levels of college football. Emporia State and Southern Illinois? Really? Fleck also played and coached in the NFL. He's been on the inside of more diverse experience in college and professional football than all of Kill's coaches combined.
 



Bottom line is the Gophers were going to suck with TC. We all kind of know that. Some just don't want to admit it.

Mark Coyle is AD of the year right now and it's not close.
 

GFBfan said:
TC was not in over his head. TC learned an awful lot as a HC in his time and I feel he was understanding what it took to be a HC and would have been even better in the years to come. He won't get that chance here, now it is PJ's time and I fully support him and hope he can build off of what was established by Kill and Claeys
Atlanta showed last night that coaches make bad decisions all the time. Some are worse than others, but they do happen.
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Does this mean that there are others here how support Fleck and want to move on from the Claeys era? I think so. And their numbers will only grow. After all, we're Gopher football fans first and undying in our support of the great institution the University of Minnesota has always been.
 

Why do so many Claeys' supporters revert to the argument that because Minnesota has had some of the worst defenses in major college football over many years, that improving defenses to a level barely above average qualifies someone for induction into the College Football Hall of Fame?
 




How did you all feel about the defense when they blew the Penn St game and gave up 32 points to a Rutgers team that got outscored by a combined 224-0 by Michigan, OSU, MSU, and Penn St? I was really impressed by their defensive performance in the bowl game, but other than that, the season was marred by inconsistency and blown opportunities.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Trisuper said:
Why do so many Claeys' supporters revert to the argument that because Minnesota has had some of the worst defenses in major college football over many years, that improving defenses to a level barely above average qualifies someone for induction into the College Football Hall of Fame?
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Why do people make stuff up about what other people say?

Is it because their own arguments don't make sense unless they do that?
 

Looks like we got our very own P******hawk. The gift that absolutely no one asked for.
 

37score said:
Bottom line is the Gophers were going to suck with TC. We all kind of know that. Some just don't want to admit it.

Mark Coyle is AD of the year right now and it's not close.
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Great, great open and varied discussion of important issues on this thread. We're also hearing from many new voices and the "Pat Reusse" negative types are receding in prominence here.
 

Trisuper said:
You have twisted my statements to serve your own purposes in every regard here.
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Quotes are twisting your words? That's an interesting take.

Trisuper said:
Who did Kill or Claeys hire that made their staffs less insular? What were their pedigrees?
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Bill Miller - over 30 years of coaching experience at many, many locations including Oklahoma St., Miami, Michigan St., Arizona St., Florida, Kansas, and Louisville

Bart Miller - coached at Wisconsin

Jay Johnson - played ahead of Kurt Warner (an NFL HOFer) at UNI, which is apparently super-important in one's coaching pedigree

Trisuper said:
The larger point about "coaching up" Joe Flacco is that the new O/C has a proven track record of developing quarterbacks than anything Kill and his staff did over SIX years.
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That's great. What does that have to do with "work[ing] at jobs way above those in the Missouri Valley Conference (Southern Illinois) and the MAC (Northern Illinois)"?

Trisuper said:
especially at WMU, which defeated NIU in 3 of the last 4 years
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What does this have to do with anything at all?

Trisuper said:
Being at Ohio State in any capacity (especially in a year when they almost won the national championship) has meaning
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Nope. Where one is a GA is almost literally meaningless with regard to the "level" of their coaching experience. Nick Saban was a GA at Kent St.

Trisuper said:
particularly in comparison to a coaching staff that spent most of its years coaching at the lowest levels of college football. Emporia State and Southern Illinois? Really?
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Oh no, guys who worked themselves up from nothing to the highest levels of college football. They must be absolute garbage people.

Trisuper said:
Fleck also played and coached in the NFL.
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Actually a valid point. The part about coaching in the NFL, I mean. Playing in the NFL has almost zero relevance to coaching. I wouldn't want Randy Moss to coach my major college football team.

Trisuper said:
He's been on the inside of more diverse experience in college and professional football than all of Kill's coaches combined.
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HAHAHAHAHA!!! 100% WRONG!!!! Bill Miller has been coaching college football for longer than P.J. Fleck has been alive and has coached in every part of the country.
 

37score said:
Bottom line is the Gophers were going to suck with TC. We all kind of know that. Some just don't want to admit it.
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No, "we" don't know that. That's your own assumption (and you know what they say about assuming). Don't appeal to some fake consensus to attempt to make your point stronger.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Jay Johnson - coached Kurt Warner (an NFL HOFer) at UNI, which is apparently super-important in one's coaching pedigree
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Not to be "the guy," but ummm... are you sure about this one?
 

RolGnav said:
Not to be "the guy," but ummm... are you sure about this one?
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You're right, my bad - he actually played ahead of an NFL HOFer at UNI. Probably even more important than coaching one, I presume?
 

dpodoll68 said:
You're right, my bad - he actually played ahead of an NFL HOFer at UNI. Probably even more important than coaching one, I presume?
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I'm sure Kurt Warner will acknowledge Johnson's influence on his career at the NFL Hall of Fame induction. Maybe he'll be his presenter?
 

dpodoll68 said:
No, "we" don't know that. That's your own assumption (and you know what they say about assuming). Don't appeal to some fake consensus to attempt to make your point stronger.
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If he was such a good head coach and good recruiter, he'd have a new head coaching job.
 

37score said:
If he was such a good head coach and good recruiter, he'd have a new head coaching job.
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There's been one vacancy filled since Minnesota (Cal) and the fact that he didn't get that one is evidence that he's not a good head coach and good recruiter? If only you were half as smart as you think you are.

Phil Fulmer is a college football HOFer and hasn't held a head coaching job since 2008. HOF coaches aren't good head coaches or good recruiters, right? How about Jerry Kill, Al Golden, or Paul Rhoads? None are good?
 

dpodoll68 said:
There's been one vacancy filled since Minnesota (Cal) and the fact that he didn't get that one is evidence that he's not a good head coach and good recruiter? If only you were half as smart as you think you are.

Phil Fulmer is a college football HOFer and hasn't held a head coaching job since 2008. HOF coaches aren't good head coaches or good recruiters, right? How about Jerry Kill, Al Golden, or Paul Rhoads? None are good?
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You're comparing good coaches with a guy who never won a interviewing process to land a head coaching job.

Compare who wins more games as a head coach at the NCAA and NFL level from here on between Fleck and Claeys. We'll see who wins more games.
 

37score said:
You're comparing good coaches with a guy who never won a interviewing process to land a head coaching job.
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Keep moving those goalposts.

37score said:
Compare who wins more games as a head coach at the NCAA and NFL level from here on between Fleck and Claeys. We'll see who wins more games.
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What does that have to do with whether Claeys is a good head coach and good recruiter?
 

dpodoll68 said:
Keep moving those goalposts.



What does that have to do with whether Claeys is a good head coach and good recruiter?
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Good coaches and recruiters win games as head coaches.

I give Fleck the advantage. We are better for having Fleck because he'll win more games in the future than will Claeys.

Fleck won 13 games this year and play WI tougher than Claeys. Claeys won 8 games and a Bowl win.

Fleck +4.
 

37score said:
Good coaches and recruiters win games as head coaches.

I give Fleck the advantage. We are better for having Fleck because he'll win more games in the future than will Claeys.

Fleck won 13 games this year and play WI tougher than Claeys. Claeys won 8 games and a Bowl win.

Fleck +4.
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God, you're an idiot. The good news is you'll be banned soon - because you're an idiot.
 

37score said:
Good coaches and recruiters win games as head coaches.

I give Fleck the advantage. We are better for having Fleck because he'll win more games in the future than will Claeys.

Fleck won 13 games this year and play WI tougher than Claeys. Claeys won 8 games and a Bowl win.

Fleck +4.
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In Tracy's one year as a head coach, he went 9-4. In Fleck's 4 years as a coach, he went 30-22.

Tracy had a significantly better winning percentage as a head coach.

This point is completely useless. But since we're playing the game of throwing out useless stats to prove our point, I thought it would be fun.
 

dpodoll68 said:
There's been one vacancy filled since Minnesota (Cal) and the fact that he didn't get that one is evidence that he's not a good head coach and good recruiter? If only you were half as smart as you think you are.

Phil Fulmer is a college football HOFer and hasn't held a head coaching job since 2008. HOF coaches aren't good head coaches or good recruiters, right? How about Jerry Kill, Al Golden, or Paul Rhoads? None are good?
Click to expand...

Chip Kelly doesn't have a job either. He's a terrible college football coach.
 

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