Soucheray: U of M player of character would have cleared the building helped woman

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MennoSota said:
Fine, they don't meet your code. I assume neither does the woman who had 6 shots of vodka and invited multi-partners to have sex with her before she allegedly said "no more."
Neither does the thousands of sexual encounters by students at the U...or student/faculty at the U. If there is going to be enforcement, fine. Enforce the code on all persons, equally, and continue to bring the suspensions and expulsions before due process can take place. Expell every student who breaks a code and invite them in later to appeal their case, after the punishment has been given. That is equal and fair treatment.
However, there are 10 black men being removed with no due process until after the judgment has come down.
This is an unfair system of judgment and it deserves to be reviewed and reformed to give every student a means of due process...before judgment is enforced. The U has this system set up @$$ backward.
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The girl put herself into a bad situation...but if you read the report, there wasn't invited sex with any of them. Those guys took advantage of a girl who had too much to drink and was in a powerless situation. If they ever have kids, I wonder what they would do if someone did that to their daughters.
 

ethomasp31 said:
The girl put herself into a bad situation...but if you read the report, there wasn't invited sex with any of them. Those guys took advantage of a girl who had too much to drink and was in a powerless situation. If they ever have kids, I wonder what they would do if someone did that to their daughters.
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There is never a powerless decision, unless a gun is to your head.
The report is a he said, she said account. The police report does not find enough evidence to prosecute.
Again, this issue is about due process and equity. Do all students get dropped from any work study program if the student receives a negative EOAA report? Are they not allowed to work from that moment on? Are they forced to fight their judgment after the punishment is applied?
 


MennoSota said:
There is never a powerless decision, unless a gun is to your head.
The report is a he said, she said account. The police report does not find enough evidence to prosecute.
Again, this issue is about due process and equity. Do all students get dropped from any work study program if the student receives a negative EOAA report? Are they not allowed to work from that moment on? Are they forced to fight their judgment after the punishment is applied?
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The President of the University, who I am sure took advantage of the lawyers at the U and of the U, made the call on the early punishments. As is his right under the policy. That is the only question of fairness that could possibly be taken to court. My opinion, meh!
 

Maximus said:
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The point is that judgment fell...before anyone could argue their case. There has been no due process before pronouncement of guilt. The system needs changing.
 


Dean S said:
The President of the University, who I am sure took advantage of the lawyers at the U and of the U, made the call on the early punishments. As is his right under the policy. That is the only question of fairness that could possibly be taken to court. My opinion, meh!
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Which is why I state that the system needs to be reformed.
 

MennoSota said:
There is never a powerless decision, unless a gun is to your head.
The report is a he said, she said account. The police report does not find enough evidence to prosecute.
Again, this issue is about due process and equity. Do all students get dropped from any work study program if the student receives a negative EOAA report? Are they not allowed to work from that moment on? Are they forced to fight their judgment after the punishment is applied?
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I've tried. These folks either can't understand or refuse to understand the basics of due process.
 

MennoSota said:
There is never a powerless decision, unless a gun is to your head.
The report is a he said, she said account. The police report does not find enough evidence to prosecute.
Again, this issue is about due process and equity. Do all students get dropped from any work study program if the student receives a negative EOAA report? Are they not allowed to work from that moment on? Are they forced to fight their judgment after the punishment is applied?
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Do you seriously believe that...or do you honestly believe that?
 

PMWinSTP said:
I've tried. These folks either can't understand or refuse to understand the basics of due process.
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I understand due process....and I also understand that there is not enough evidence for these guys to be convicted. But that doesn't mean that what these guys did wasn't wrong. You don't think her story seems reasonable? Do you think she just had it out for these guys on the football team?

I've talked to so many women, who have told me stories where guys force themselves on them to the point they feel trapped. These situations are never brought to the police and the guys are people I know who I would never guess would do things like that. I've seen it at parties, and I've seen it at bars where I've had to tell people I know to knock it off, but now I'm beginning to realize in not strong enough language.
 



ethomasp31 said:
Do you seriously believe that...or do you honestly believe that?
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In the situation we are discussing, the woman was not powerless. You can make that claim, but you will be wrong.
 

ethomasp31 said:
I understand due process....and I also understand that there is not enough evidence for these guys to be convicted. But that doesn't mean that what these guys did wasn't wrong. You don't think her story seems reasonable? Do you think she just had it out for these guys on the football team?

I've talked to so many women, who have told me stories where guys force themselves on them to the point they feel trapped. These situations are never brought to the police and the guys are people I know who I would never guess would do things like that. I've seen it at parties, and I've seen it at bars where I've had to tell people I know to knock it off, but now I'm beginning to realize in not strong enough language.
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If you do, then you think it shouldn't apply here because of the acts alleged and the circumstances? I think people are confusing the coach and AD suspension with what happened here as punishment.
 


MennoSota said:
There is never a powerless decision, unless a gun is to your head.
The report is a he said, she said account. The police report does not find enough evidence to prosecute.
Again, this issue is about due process and equity. Do all students get dropped from any work study program if the student receives a negative EOAA report? Are they not allowed to work from that moment on? Are they forced to fight their judgment after the punishment is applied?
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I honestly think the answer to your questions is yes. We just don't hear about those cases. The Minnesota Student Conduct Code is pretty clear in both laying out that removal of privileges is a possible form of discipline and in saying that interim suspension may occur pending a hearing.

http://regents.umn.edu/sites/regents.umn.edu/files/policies/Student_Conduct_Code.pdf

I think it's totally sensible to question whether the Title IX guidelines are fair and just. It's not quite as logical to question whether they comply with the Constitution, given that there's a lot of case law backing up the idea that they are. It's probably also not sensible to question whether the University is following the Title IX guidelines given that they have people who do this for a living and hardly anyone on this board has real experience with it. But where people really start throwing hail marys is when they start questioning whether the University is following its own guidelines. I think the safest assumption is that they are, unless you've done real research to determine otherwise.
 



MennoSota said:
There is never a powerless decision, unless a gun is to your head.
The report is a he said, she said account. The police report does not find enough evidence to prosecute.
Again, this issue is about due process and equity. Do all students get dropped from any work study program if the student receives a negative EOAA report? Are they not allowed to work from that moment on? Are they forced to fight their judgment after the punishment is applied?
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So is there no such thing as rape if no gun is involved?
 


justthefacts said:
I honestly think the answer to your questions is yes. We just don't hear about those cases. The Minnesota Student Conduct Code is pretty clear in both laying out that removal of privileges is a possible form of discipline and in saying that interim suspension may occur pending a hearing.

http://regents.umn.edu/sites/regents.umn.edu/files/policies/Student_Conduct_Code.pdf

I think it's totally sensible to question whether the Title IX guidelines are fair and just. It's not quite as logical to question whether they comply with the Constitution, given that there's a lot of case law backing up the idea that they are. It's probably also not sensible to question whether the University is following the Title IX guidelines given that they have people who do this for a living and hardly anyone on this board has real experience with it. But where people really start throwing hail marys is when they start questioning whether the University is following its own guidelines. I think the safest assumption is that they are, unless you've done real research to determine otherwise.
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You and I both know that if your mommy and daddy are rich and white, you won't receive the same punishment. This is reality.
 


ethomasp31 said:
The girl put herself into a bad situation...but<b> if you read the report, </b>there wasn't invited sex with any of them. Those guys took advantage of a girl who had too much to drink and was in a powerless situation. If they ever have kids, <b>I wonder what they would do if someone did that to their daughters.</b>
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Was the report proven true and I missed it? Maybe we should start allowing the EOAA to decide guilt in all cases. I can't see anything wrong with that idea. Why do we even have rights? I wonder what you would do if your Son was accused of something like this?


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Yes, the U of MN has guidelines and a process to follow for these situations. What I'm saying (and what others are saying) is that the process should have been allowed to play out BEFORE any of this was made public. The suspensions were announced; the EOAA report was made public; the players' names were made public, and their pictures were splashed all over the media - BEFORE the process was completed.

Let me say this - when all is said and done, I believe several of the players acted badly and deserve some type of discipline/punishment. But, I also believe at least a few of the players were involved to a much lesser degree, and deserve a much milder type of discipline. It is those players I am most concerned with. In the eyes of the public, they have been branded as rapists or criminals. I do not believe they deserve to have their reputations destroyed BEFORE the disciplinary process has been completed.

That's all I'm saying - let the ENTIRE process play out before passing judgement. We are about 45 minutes into a 2-hour movie. Anyone who says they are 100% certain they know how the movie will end has apparently never seen a movie with a surprise ending.
 

MennoSota said:
The police determined there was no rape in this situation. The woman was not helpless.
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No they didn't. That's not at all what a decision not to arrest means. But I'm not talking about this situation. I'm talking about your comment that nobody is helpless unless there is a gun to their head. It would follow that what would otherwise be considered to be rape because of threats of violence or simply being overpowered physically is not in fact rape because there was no immediate threat of loss of life for non-compliance.
 

Most of us are in the middle ground of wanting all of the facts and process play out

UpnorthGo4 said:
Far too many posters in GopherHole have refused to consider evidence that the alleged victim withdrew her consent after first two players through the door.
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What you have stated could have happened, but none of us really know that. I do think the professional investigators need to review the case here, and actually go over any potential new evidence that can be collected. That probably will not happen but I think all relevant information may come to light in a civil process for the "alleged victim". At this point I don't know if the "alleged victim" is going to receive from the criminal court systems what they want. The EoAA suspensions may have been a start in that process. This event isn't shut and close the door and is not a cut and dry situation.
I believe there will be civil action taken by many involved, and in particular the "Alleged victim". She is likely going to have to bring a "civil" court lawsuit in order to get any kind of just remedy. Any settlements during the restraining order process would not void the possibility of a civil trial resulting from a lawsuit at least with the actors and party's she knows and can recall were involved.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Yes, the U of MN has guidelines and a process to follow for these situations. What I'm saying (and what others are saying) is that the process should have been allowed to play out BEFORE any of this was made public. The suspensions were announced; the EOAA report was made public; the players' names were made public, and their pictures were splashed all over the media - BEFORE the process was completed.

Let me say this - when all is said and done, I believe several of the players acted badly and deserve some type of discipline/punishment. But, I also believe at least a few of the players were involved to a much lesser degree, and deserve a much milder type of discipline. It is those players I am most concerned with. In the eyes of the public, they have been branded as rapists or criminals. I do not believe they deserve to have their reputations destroyed BEFORE the disciplinary process has been completed.

That's all I'm saying - let the ENTIRE process play out before passing judgement. We are about 45 minutes into a 2-hour movie. Anyone who says they are 100% certain they know how the movie will end has apparently never seen a movie with a surprise ending.
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The release of the EOAA report was of course, not part of the process, and seem likely to have been done by one of disciplined students, judging by the cover letter.

Their own attorney was the one who specified the reason for the suspensions.

Absent these two items, we would only know they were not playing in a bowl game.
 

MennoSota said:
You and I both know that if your mommy and daddy are rich and white, you won't receive the same punishment. This is reality.
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What if you are rich and black? Is that half as good, or as good? How rich does black have to be to get to white?
 

MennoSota said:
You and I both know that if your mommy and daddy are rich and white, you won't receive the same punishment. This is reality.
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Michigan's white kicker was expelled from school in January 2014. No criminal charges.

Yale's white basketball captain was expelled last February. No criminal charges.
 



Maximus said:
Michigan's white kicker was expelled from school in January 2014. No criminal charges.

Yale's white basketball captain was expelled last February. No criminal charges.
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Any situation in Minnesota? Don’t compare apples and oranges. We're talking about the racism oozing through the University of Minnesota.
 

MennoSota said:
Ask Antoine Winfield Sr. Do you think he's made it?
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I don't know. You seem to have knowledge I don't about the University's motive, I thought you could tell me about the Rich/white matrix.
 

MennoSota said:
Any situation in Minnesota? Don’t compare apples and oranges. We're talking about the racism oozing through the University of Minnesota.
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The Yale case seems pretty similar:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...onduct-was-consensual/?utm_term=.6354b9615942

In fact, it seems the accused may even have a stronger case in that one.

EDIT: I'm not saying there's no racism on the Minnesota campus. There probably is; I'd have no idea. I'm just saying that your argument seems ill-considered at best.
 

MennoSota said:
Any situation in Minnesota? Don’t compare apples and oranges. We're talking about the racism oozing through the University of Minnesota.
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How many white U of M students were in attendance that night?
 

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