Soucheray: U of M player of character would have cleared the building helped woman

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Iceland12

Iceland12

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But the school still had to investigate and was required to by law. The school has a Code of Conduct that has been around since 1970 and amended many times. It is eight pages long. Any paragraph might be applied to address the behavior of the players back on Sept 2.

From Section II. Guiding Principles. Paragraph B:

“The University seeks a community that is free from violence, threats, and intimidation; that is respectful of the rights, opportunities, and the welfare of students, faculty, staff, and guests of the University; and that does not threaten the physical or mental health or safety of members of the University community.’’

The woman went to the hospital and had a rape kit examination and then reported the incident to the police. By no stretch of the imagination could the participants have been innocent of Paragraph B, Section II, Guiding Principles.

Claeys should have read the entire report to his players. He should have requested that they could hear a pin drop as he detailed what exactly is included in the Code of Conduct.

Because this wasn’t an episode of conduct. No player involved appears to have risen to the moral or ethical clarity required of any man whose instinctive character would have compelled him to say, “Wait a minute. Stop. This isn’t right. This has gotten out of hand. Everybody clear this building.’’

Any man of character — we call football players men — would have not only cleared the building but would have helped the woman, taken her to the hospital, for example. Actually, if there were men of character around that night the bacchanal would never have happened and the woman would not have required a hospital visit.


http://www.twincities.com/2016/12/2...d-have-cleared-the-building-helped-the-woman/
 

I have been very critical of the EOAA process but I agree with Soucheray's comments.
 



There's to many opinion articles that need to go away. State the facts and let's stop pushing a guilty or innocent narrative already.
 


Claeys can't read the report to his players.
 

Newspapers have departments. Some of them are openly opinionated. On purpose.
 

If they actually enforced Section II. Guiding Principles. Paragraph B and punished anyone that didn't respect "welfare of students, faculty, staff, and guests", 99% of the students would be in trouble. Heck, half of the professors would be fired for harming student welfare by stressing us out from waiting so long to hear how we did on tests.

Yeah, some of the players messed up badly. But to say they deserve punishment for violating some abstract principle that isn't well defined or ever enforced is crazy.
 

Soucheray can be too flippant for me sometimes, but I'd say he hit this nail on the head. If there had been one young man among this bunch who had a conscience, the whole episode would never have occured, or would at least have ended sooner.
 



GoGophersUMN said:
If they actually enforced Section II. Guiding Principles. Paragraph B and punished anyone that didn't respect "welfare of students, faculty, staff, and guests", 99% of the students would be in trouble. Heck, half of the professors would be fired for harming student welfare by stressing us out from waiting so long to hear how we did on tests.

Yeah, some of the players messed up badly. But to say they deserve punishment for violating some abstract principle that isn't well defined or ever enforced is crazy.
Click to expand...
The reason vague sections like this exist is as a catch all for students acting stupidly but in new undefined ways. Working as intended.
 

everybody knows my name said:
Soucheray can be too flippant for me sometimes, but I'd say he hit this nail on the head. If there had been one young man among this bunch who had a conscience, the whole episode would never have occured, or would at least have ended sooner.
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There were. A 100 or so young men weren't there, knew nothing about it, or chose not to go, and were blindsided by it. My guess is that the organizer knew who to invite who were all of the same mindset.
 

Instead of being about 6 feet high, their brains were about 3 feet high.
 

So theoretically, if there is group sex happening between a group of consensual adults should someone who disagrees with that action intervene and stop those doing it?


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Spoofin said:
So theoretically, if there is group sex happening between a group of consensual adults should someone who disagrees with that action intervene and stop those doing it?


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Far too many people have chosen to disregard that this entire episode may have been consensual (it is the crux of the matter, in addition to the committee's "investigation"process), and have moved forward to condemnation and penalties.
 

If people are engaging in a sexual act and you choose to forcibly end that act, you should go to jail.

If it was consensual, no one had the right to break it up.
If it was not consensual, I agree with him.
 

Spoofin said:
So theoretically, if there is group sex happening between a group of consensual adults should someone who disagrees with that action intervene and stop those doing it?


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Couldn't agree more. This topic has really put some strange bedfellows together. You have the far right and the far left teaming together, who already have the case closed with a conviction, against the middle ground who wants the facts to play out (consent?) and wait for due process to be determined fairly.
 

minny01 said:
Couldn't agree more. This topic has really put some strange bedfellows together. You have the far right and the far left teaming together, who already have the case closed with a conviction, against the middle ground who wants the facts to play out (consent?) and wait for due process to be determined fairly.
Click to expand...

These far left zealots are blind to how fascist they are acting.

It really is becoming 1984.
 

Soucheray's opinion walks the fine line between the "fight or flight" in human emotions and on knowing what to do in an emotionally charged situation where you may not be using reasoning or using logic and fully understand the situation of what may have been happening to the alleged victim. Even if witnessing a crime some people will choose not to get involved and run rather than intervene and that doesn't always speak to their personal character. Soucheray is also passing judgement off without having full details or facts, just the limited details that have been shared. He has shared an opinion but he is trying to form group thought, be persuasive, and win people over to his perspective as an opinion columnist. There is some counter to what he is discussing.

Some of these stooges from the team egging the behavior on, or cheering, and the supposed cheerleader or supposed ex-girlfriend of one of the players texting the group the text "Run her" after reading that text, are prime examples of why some may have chosen to run away or avoid what behavior was going on that evening. They may have even been taught because of cultural situations to leave and get the heck out of town, especially when different races of people and law enforcement may become involved. You can quickly turn from witness to suspect in some of those types of situations.
It isn't always as simple as doing what may seem right.
 

Group Sex is not isolated to the football team. Stopping this is a University wide problem. I'm thinking a club that gathers Friday and Saturday nights walking the halls of dorms and apartments putting a glass and their ear against the door. If they hear between 0-2 people moaning they move on, but if they hear 3 or more they break that damn door down. Apparently it is their obligation.


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Iceland12 said:
Any man of character — we call football players men — would have not only cleared the building but would have helped the woman, taken her to the hospital, for example. Actually, if there were men of character around that night the bacchanal would never have happened and the woman would not have required a hospital visit. [/I]
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Indeed, any man or woman of character would not have been involved in this orgy. Neither the woman nor the men stand for people of high character on that night. Shall we kick every person out of the University for having low character? That would remove about 50% of the student body.
Let's not kid ourselves about the moral character on display at the U of M from faculty down to freshman.
 

Ski U Master said:
The reason vague sections like this exist is as a catch all for students acting stupidly but in new undefined ways. Working as intended.
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Or as a means for the elite to be racist and cover it up.
10 black men accused of acting inappropriately with a white woman. Shall we get out the ropes? Racism is alive and well at the U.
 

Whoever recruited Carlton Djam must really regret the decision.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
If people are engaging in a sexual act and you choose to forcibly end that act, you should go to jail.

If it was consensual, no one had the right to break it up.
If it was not consensual, I agree with him.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Everyone knows Joe doesn't think through far enough to get to that kind of enlightenment...thus gar(b)age logic.
 

minny01 said:
This topic has really put some strange bedfellows together. You have the far right and the far left teaming together
Click to expand...

There are definitely heads exploding. You have the ultra-feminists that would normally be cheering on a one girl multiple male, interracial gangbang as a sign of female sexual liberation and empowerment while simultaneously helping to bring down the patriarchy and end racism now aligning forces with the ultra-right religious conservatives that believe sex should only be allowed for married heterosexual couples for the purpose of procreation and, under no circumstances, with the lights on. If you ignore the debate over consent - which is the actual core subject of this whole investigation - you are basically just making moral judgments about the ethics of an interracial gangbang. The only debate here is the subject of consent - not the acts that occurred. If you are viewing this differently than a case of a 1 guy and 1 girl rape allegation that centers on consent - you are already biased against the players. Food for thought.
 

How many people have the strength of character that Souch is calling for? To stand up against your friends - challenge the crowd - be the lone voice of dissent? That is asking a heck of a lot for anyone - but for an 18 or 19-year old kid (I'm 61 - anyone that age is a kid to me) to show that strength of character is one in a million. I dare say anyone with that strength of character would never have been at that party to begin with. I know I sure as bleep couldn't have done that. At best, I might have left the party and maybe made an anonymous phone call to the cops reporting a woman in danger - but in all honesty, at that point in my life, I probably would have just gone along with the crowd - due to my need to be accepted. I ain't no hero - that's understood.

It's easy to perch on a moral high horse and pass judgement on other people. It's a lot harder to be the person who takes action against the crowd.

So now, the $64,000 question - would a 19-year-old Joe Soucheray, put in that same position, have acted the way he calls for in his column? I'm willing to say no bleepin' way.
 

MennoSota said:
Or as a means for the elite to be racist and cover it up.
10 black men accused of acting inappropriately with a white woman. Shall we get out the ropes? Racism is alive and well at the U.
Click to expand...

If 10 white guys did this I think the reaction would be the same. I for one didn't see where the description said she was white....nor did I assume that. That being said, the behavior is offensive. If 10 black guys get together and commit a crime is it racist to say they should have consequences? Do we know if a white guy was there? I have not heard or read that a single white guy was there so I don't see why the race card is being played. When I read the report I didn't know all the guys were black and it turned my stomach...it was only later when all their pictures were posted. My response was the same...their behavior was disgusting.
 

CoMn said:
If 10 white guys did this I think the reaction would be the same. I for one didn't see where the description said she was white....nor did I assume that. That being said, the behavior is offensive. If 10 black guys get together and commit a crime is it racist to say they should have consequences? Do we know if a white guy was there? I have not heard or read that a single white guy was there so I don't see why the race card is being played. When I read the report I didn't know all the guys were black and it turned my stomach...it was only later when all their pictures were posted. My response was the same...their behavior was disgusting.
Click to expand...

She is quoted as texting (i think texting) "horrible and scary situation involving 12 black men." I get that from the report.

Edit to add: the report is ambigous as to whether it was texted, said , a direct quote, or whatever. From context it appears to imply texted.
 

CoMn said:
If 10 white guys did this I think the reaction would be the same. I for one didn't see where the description said she was white....nor did I assume that. That being said, the behavior is offensive. If 10 black guys get together and commit a crime is it racist to say they should have consequences? Do we know if a white guy was there? I have not heard or read that a single white guy was there so I don't see why the race card is being played. When I read the report I didn't know all the guys were black and it turned my stomach...it was only later when all their pictures were posted. My response was the same...their behavior was disgusting.
Click to expand...

If a prostitute has sex with 15 guys in a line, is that just as disgusting as a woman freely choosing with no financial compensation?
We can make moral judgments regarding what disgusts us, but not every disgusting act is illegal. In this case, there is nothing illegal being done. The report therefore turns this event into a moral reprimand where 10 black men are accused of doing what the elite group declares disgusting. It's a social lynching by any standard, even though there is no illegal crime.
 

Class_of_99 said:
There are definitely heads exploding. You have the ultra-feminists that would normally be cheering on a one girl multiple male, interracial gangbang as a sign of female sexual liberation and empowerment while simultaneously helping to bring down the patriarchy and end racism now aligning forces with the ultra-right religious conservatives that believe sex should only be allowed for married heterosexual couples for the purpose of procreation and, under no circumstances, with the lights on. If you ignore the debate over consent - which is the actual core subject of this whole investigation - you are basically just making moral judgments about the ethics of an interracial gangbang. The only debate here is the subject of consent - not the acts that occurred. If you are viewing this differently than a case of a 1 guy and 1 girl rape allegation that centers on consent - you are already biased against the players. Food for thought.
Click to expand...

What about the five who did not have sexual contact...is that part of the debate? There are many, many levels to this my friend.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
How many people have the strength of character that Souch is calling for? To stand up against your friends - challenge the crowd - be the lone voice of dissent? That is asking a heck of a lot for anyone - but for an 18 or 19-year old kid (I'm 61 - anyone that age is a kid to me) to show that strength of character is one in a million. I dare say anyone with that strength of character would never have been at that party to begin with. I know I sure as bleep couldn't have done that. At best, I might have left the party and maybe made an anonymous phone call to the cops reporting a woman in danger - but in all honesty, at that point in my life, I probably would have just gone along with the crowd - due to my need to be accepted. I ain't no hero - that's understood.

It's easy to perch on a moral high horse and pass judgement on other people. It's a lot harder to be the person who takes action against the crowd.

So now, the $64,000 question - would a 19-year-old Joe Soucheray, put in that same position, have acted the way he calls for in his column? I'm willing to say no bleepin' way.
Click to expand...

Completely nailed it. Well done. Joe plays a character as a columnist...and does a pretty Meh job at it.
 

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