What is the main stylistic difference one sees between the Gophers and a team like...

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cncmin

cncmin

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...say, Wisconsin, or a Michigan State? At the danger of disregarding the disparity in recruiting, what I see when I watch other, higher-tier teams is the glaring difference in teamwork (both sides of the ball) and ball distribution. It's not size, not strength, not really heart, either - it's that the Gophers have consistently - at least going back to Rickert and Humphries and Pryzbilla - failed to play as a team.

Oh sure, there were specific seasons where teamwork was back in style - Tubby's first season and perhaps parts of the next couple of Tubby's years - but I watch a team like Wisconsin beating up on a quality Syracuse team and just think why can't the Gophers pass the ball like that and why can't the Gophers play well-organized team defense like that?

That said, the team this year has specific player components that will allow them to make some noise. In reality, they have enough athleticism that if they can put it together as a team, they have a great shot at making the Tournament. But I continue to see far too much individuality and selfishness - particularly on the offensive side of the ball - for me to believe we can make that big of a leap.

Thoughts? Counter-arguments?
 

WI put on a passing clinic tonight. Not sure I've seen better ball movement and I've been watching college ball for 25 years.

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I would just point out that Wisconsin doesn't recruit that much better than we do. That's not to say they're just picking up scrubs at the local YMCA and turning them into stars as some might have you believe, but generally their recruiting is at a similar level to ours, maybe slightly higher due to some recent guys like Koenig and Dekker, and they have a top 50 kid committed for 2018. Michigan State definitely recruits better than we do though.

Coffey seems to be pretty good at getting into good spots and making an extra pass to an open teammate. Is Wisconsin doing better now? Their fans seemed a bit displeased with some of their early performances. Too much chucking threes when they weren't hitting them, and Hayes might not have been very good.
 

Gopherbbdude said:
WI put on a passing clinic tonight. Not sure I've seen better ball movement and I've been watching college ball for 25 years.

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Agreed I thought Bo Ryan was back.
 

I'm not a b-ball Xs and Os expert, but I'm inclined to agree with the OP. Monday, there were several massive defensive breakdowns seemingly caused by players being out of position or not understanding where to move when things don't look like they do on the whiteboard leading to too many lightly contested in-the-paint baskets. On the offensive end, the perimeter passing and penetration I thought was actually good. But post passing, drive-and-dish passing and three point shooting were all poor.
 


Michigan State and Wisconsin don't turnover the ball and the both play excellent team defense.
The Gophers have struggled to efficiently run an offense and play tenacious defense. We'll see if Coach Pitino can change the culture.
 

The OP makes some good points. However, I think recruiting a higher level of talent is a major factor in playing as a team. When you have 5 guys that can all be trusted to do good things with the ball, see the court and make a good percentage of their shots, team mates tend to trust each other and pass the ball more quickly. Without naming names I think we can all recall some Gopher players that we would be reluctant to touch the ball in certain situations. Michigan State and Wisconsin don't have many of those players. Wisconsin doesn't recruit at the level of MSU but they tend to recruit skill over athleticism and they scale their pace of play to those players. There are lots of ways to win but there are less ways to win and look like a team when you lack talent.

That is why this team appears to move the ball a lot better than last year's team. We have a lot more talent. The top 7-8 guys can all contribute. Same coach, different players. We still lack enough good shooters but that will come with time as we get better and better recruits and the young players we have develop.
 

I think part of it is chemistry to, Sparty has alot of talent, but like us a lot new faces and I think they are still learning to play together. I think in Wisconsin's case they bring back every important piece of their team last year, so there's a lot of familiarity. they had some rough patches last year when they were breaking in a new core of players. Part of it is recruiting the right players for what you're trying to do. i think Coffey is someone who will be a great all around player, just sees the court really well. Sounds like with Isiah Washington that will be a strength in his game too. Lynch is a pretty good passer for a big man and he has great hands, McBreyer, can drive, Mason has a smooth jumper, just gotta to put it all together and I think with time this group will
 

Good passing = Good coaching
Good Defense = Good Coaching

Better players can make a coach look better and better coaches make players look better.

It's all about the team buying into what the coach is trying to teach them. Any defensive philosophy works if you have players busting ass to execute. Offense is the same, but good defense leads to good offense and that doesn't work the other way around.
 



bga1 said:
The OP makes some good points. However, I think recruiting a higher level of talent is a major factor in playing as a team. When you have 5 guys that can all be trusted to do good things with the ball, see the court and make a good percentage of their shots, team mates tend to trust each other and pass the ball more quickly. Without naming names I think we can all recall some Gopher players that we would be reluctant to touch the ball in certain situations. Michigan State and Wisconsin don't have many of those players. Wisconsin doesn't recruit at the level of MSU but they tend to recruit skill over athleticism and they scale their pace of play to those players. There are lots of ways to win but there are less ways to win and look like a team when you lack talent.

That is why this team appears to move the ball a lot better than last year's team. We have a lot more talent. The top 7-8 guys can all contribute. Same coach, different players. We still lack enough good shooters but that will come with time as we get better and better recruits and the young players we have develop.
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100% the more talent you have also forces the defense to respect every player on the floor which leaves them off balance and makes offense a lot easier.

If all it took was passing the Gophers could pass around the top of the 3 point line for 35 seconds, it wouldn't make them any better.

IMO it comes down to getting the defense off balance, passing and getting the ball into the paint and forcing the defense to react. Better players and teams do that better than worse teams and players.


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I thought that FSU showed things that the Gophers haven't seen. Pressure on the ball, especially the backcourt, and a huge presence in the paint. It looked as if FSU squeeze our guards and knew that, if they got into the paint, their bigs would dominate. As a result there was very little offensive continuity on our part. Probably a good learning experience.
 

Wisconsin starts 4 Seniors and a RS-Sophomore. Gophers start 2 Juniors, one of them being a transfer, 2 Sophomores, and a Freshman. It takes time to learn how to play together, especially when there are a lot of new faces.
 

I would say that IMHO, consistently good teams have a system, and their coaches recruit players who fit that system.

The big question for the Gophers is - what is their system, and are the coaches able to recruit players who fit that system - or are they recruiting the best players they can get, and hoping they fit the system. There's a big difference.

Obviously, when you have a program like Wisconsin or Michigan State that has been a consistent winner, it's a little easier to recruit the type of player you want. For a program like MN that has been up and down, the coaches have to work harder (and get a little lucky) to bring in kids who can play, and fit the system.
 




We don't have an identity on offense or defense. What do we "do" on offense? Wisconsin runs swing, MSU runs tons of sets, Michigan jacks 3's. What is our identity? Even FSU has an identity, at least defensively. They were pressuring us out front, daring us to take it to the rim, where they knew they had an advantage. When Pitino was hired, he came with an identity of full court pressure and a high tempo offense. Where has that gone? Don't get me wrong, you need the right personnel to pull off a full court press against top level competition, which we haven't had, and I think Pitino found out the hard way. But where does that leave the Gopher Men's Basketball team? How do you sell a program to recruits that has no identity? Does he say that style is what he wants to do, but hasn't had the manpower for?

For all of Tubby's deficiencies, we always knew that we'd play very good defense, and we won a lot of games with that identity. Unfortunately, the offensive identity for Tubby was dribble around until 5 seconds left on the shot clock then try and do something!
 


RunGopherRun said:
We don't have an identity on offense or defense. What do we "do" on offense? Wisconsin runs swing, MSU runs tons of sets, Michigan jacks 3's. What is our identity? Even FSU has an identity, at least defensively. They were pressuring us out front, daring us to take it to the rim, where they knew they had an advantage. When Pitino was hired, he came with an identity of full court pressure and a high tempo offense. Where has that gone? Don't get me wrong, you need the right personnel to pull off a full court press against top level competition, which we haven't had, and I think Pitino found out the hard way. But where does that leave the Gopher Men's Basketball team? How do you sell a program to recruits that has no identity? Does he say that style is what he wants to do, but hasn't had the manpower for?

For all of Tubby's deficiencies, we always knew that we'd play very good defense, and we won a lot of games with that identity. Unfortunately, the offensive identity for Tubby was dribble around until 5 seconds left on the shot clock then try and do something!
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I tend to agree with your assessment of a lack of strategical identity.

On the other hand, the Tubby defense seemed a lot more hype than results. Tubby's schemes got us torched from 3-point land by both good teams and many of those who weren't so good. Pitino's D scheme of overcompensating for the interior pass continues this problem.
 

RunGopherRun said:
We don't have an identity on offense or defense. What do we "do" on offense? Wisconsin runs swing, MSU runs tons of sets, Michigan jacks 3's. What is our identity? Even FSU has an identity, at least defensively. They were pressuring us out front, daring us to take it to the rim, where they knew they had an advantage. When Pitino was hired, he came with an identity of full court pressure and a high tempo offense. Where has that gone? Don't get me wrong, you need the right personnel to pull off a full court press against top level competition, which we haven't had, and I think Pitino found out the hard way. But where does that leave the Gopher Men's Basketball team? How do you sell a program to recruits that has no identity? Does he say that style is what he wants to do, but hasn't had the manpower for?

For all of Tubby's deficiencies, we always knew that we'd play very good defense, and we won a lot of games with that identity. Unfortunately, the offensive identity for Tubby was dribble around until 5 seconds left on the shot clock then try and do something!
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This is a legitimate and ongoing question. The questions within the question:
1. The full-court defense is his dad's defense. Does he understand it sufficiently to coach it? The elder Pitino took Providence to the Final Four with that defense and without all the talent in the world.
2. He says he's running a combination of his dad's offense and Billy Donovan's offense. Same question as above. It reminds me of Dan Monson and how we found out the hard way that Mark Few invented the Flow-tion offense, and Dan didn't understand it well enough to fully implement it here.
3. Even if he has a lockdown understanding of these schemes, is he able to teach them so that players can run them?
4. When - like at Florida State - the team panics and abandons what was probably a pretty good game plan, how well can he get them back on the page during the game? Against FSU, he couldn't, and he admitted that.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Wisconsin starts 4 Seniors and a RS-Sophomore. Gophers start 2 Juniors, one of them being a transfer, 2 Sophomores, and a Freshman. It takes time to learn how to play together, especially when there are a lot of new faces.
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It seems like they are always starting 4 Sr and a Soph. Some how it always seems like they find diamonds too. I mean the Happ kid was 3 star after thought.
 

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