Today a Michigan fan said to me...

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Nax5

Nax5

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MN will never be relevant in CFB.

Now, this isn't a tattle-tale post or anything. It actually made me stop and think. Michigan appears to be on the up - already eyeing National Championships. That said, we almost defeated that team last year and probably should have. A loss is a loss, of course. I enjoy each and every Gopher game at least a little, even if it is a total blowout, so the thought of an irrelevant future doesn't bother me completely. But it does make me wonder. Will MN ever be able to compete at the national level? Are there any examples of a similar team rising up through the years from a 2-loss team to a national contender? My history with CFB is somewhat new!

Just curious on people's perceptions or expectations long-term of the program.
 

The ONLY reason Minnesota Football became irrelevant was because the University administration decided that football was barbaric and a huge distraction from academics and research. The Regents either allowed it or encouraged it. That has at least somewhat changed. Gopher football will be as relevant on the national scene as the fans and Minnesotans demand of the Regents and the administration. Minnesota is not "too good" to have great football even though there are self-appointed elitists who think so.

BTW, Michigan and Wisconsin are every bit as good academically as Minnesota. They do not have a problem excelling at both.
 

Let me add that the TCF and the practice facilities are a demonstration that the attitude is at least pointing in the right direction.
 

How does one define relevant? I think the Gophers were very relevant in helping Michigan's previous coach start packing his office.
 

diehard said:
The ONLY reason Minnesota Football became irrelevant was because the University administration decided that football was barbaric and a huge distraction from academics and research. The Regents either allowed it or encouraged it. That has at least somewhat changed. Gopher football will be as relevant on the national scene as the fans and Minnesotans demand of the Regents and the administration. Minnesota is not "too good" to have great football even though there are self-appointed elitists who think so.

BTW, Michigan and Wisconsin are every bit as good academically as Minnesota. They do not have a problem excelling at both.
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Can you give me some examples of how you've seen this happen over the years? I agree with you, but struggle to explain this to my out-of-state friends and colleagues.
 


BarnBoy said:
Can you give me some examples of how you've seen this happen over the years? I agree with you, but struggle to explain this to my out-of-state friends and colleagues.
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Ditto...tell us how this comment is not completely baseless.
 

homermn said:
How does one define relevant?
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Exactly. Will we be national title contenders? Best case scenario is maybe to the degree Iowa was last year...and then, probably only once a decade. But if relevant means competing for the division every year, occasional BCS bowl, quite consistent NYD bowls, I refuse to believe that's not attainable. MSU, Wisc, Stanford, VT...they all found the right coach and built up slowly to perennial contender status. I can envision that. Not saying it'll happen, but "never" seems off to me...

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 

While at Minnesota, Warmath became one of the most successful coaches in Gophers' history, leading the team to two Big Ten titles and two Rose Bowls. Warmath is the last Gophers coach to win a national championship, a Big Ten title, or a Rose Bowl and he had the second longest tenure at the school (18 yrs) behind only Henry L. Williams. While coach, Warmath became known as a catalyst for social change, as he was one of the first major college coaches to take multiple black athletes in a single recruiting class. Quarterback Sandy Stephens, who was installed as the starting quarterback as a sophomore in 1959, was the first black All-American quarterback. With the national exposure of his bowl appearances, Warmath was able to recruit other top black athletes including future NFL stars Bobby Bell, Carl Eller, and Aaron Brown.

By then many Southern Schools suddenly "got religion" and started recruiting the players in their own back yard. Boosters at the U got tired of Warmath. They still expected Rose Bowl trips not just teams contending for the Big Ten title. To be fair to them, Warmath did go from 6 conference wins in '68 to, 5, 4, 2 and 3 before he was out as Head Coach.

The U bumped Murray up to the Athletic Director's Department and then brought in Cal Stoll, a Gopher Grad by the way. When Stoll fell out of favor the M Club and the boosters got their man. Smoking Joe Salem.

Now how did that work out huh?

That was part of the plan to get the Gophers back to prominence. The Dome would allow a coach to recruit all over the country because the games would always be played in "perfect" weather under perfect conditions. The Gophers would also be the only Big Ten team to play at night and with limited outlets to televise games, they would get a lot of National exposure.

After the sheer failure of Salem they got The Music Man, Lou Holtz in here. Two seasons of enthusiastic promotion, great attendance and a strong uptick in performance. Then Lou got the offer from Notre Dame. The U wouldn't hold him to the contract, but the weasel had to lie and say he "had an out for the Fighting Irish job". He sure as hell didn't but that guy never chooses the truth over a good story.

Now how did THAT work out?

From there Football was met with indifference by the Administrations and all downhill.

Until they decided to invest in TCF.

You can take it from there.

Oh as for that Michigan doosh bagg? Screw him.
 

Nax5 said:
MN will never be relevant in CFB.

Now, this isn't a tattle-tale post or anything. It actually made me stop and think. Michigan appears to be on the up - already eyeing National Championships. That said, we almost defeated that team last year and probably should have. A loss is a loss, of course. I enjoy each and every Gopher game at least a little, even if it is a total blowout, so the thought of an irrelevant future doesn't bother me completely. But it does make me wonder. Will MN ever be able to compete at the national level? Are there any examples of a similar team rising up through the years from a 2-loss team to a national contender? My history with CFB is somewhat new!

Just curious on people's perceptions or expectations long-term of the program.
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TCU, Oregon, Boise St, Michigan State, Baylor off the top of my head.

The entrenched interests that support abominations like the BCS and to a lesser extent the limited playoff managed to keep upstarts from championship opportunities; rather pitting traditional teams against each other thus perpetuating the cycle. There was even a year two very good teams in TCU and Boise were matched up in the BCS instead of allowing them to play helmet teams.

The right coach with the right plan can take a team places. The stars have to align with players, injuries etc but success can be built. Don't stop Believin'.
 



Nax5 said:
MN will never be relevant in CFB.

Now, this isn't a tattle-tale post or anything. It actually made me stop and think. Michigan appears to be on the up - already eyeing National Championships. That said, we almost defeated that team last year and probably should have. A loss is a loss, of course. I enjoy each and every Gopher game at least a little, even if it is a total blowout, so the thought of an irrelevant future doesn't bother me completely. But it does make me wonder. Will MN ever be able to compete at the national level? Are there any examples of a similar team rising up through the years from a 2-loss team to a national contender? My history with CFB is somewhat new!

Just curious on people's perceptions or expectations long-term of the program.
Click to expand...

Never is a long time.
 


Nax5 said:
MN will never be relevant in CFB.

Now, this isn't a tattle-tale post or anything. It actually made me stop and think. Michigan appears to be on the up - already eyeing National Championships. That said, we almost defeated that team last year and probably should have. A loss is a loss, of course. I enjoy each and every Gopher game at least a little, even if it is a total blowout, so the thought of an irrelevant future doesn't bother me completely. But it does make me wonder. Will MN ever be able to compete at the national level? Are there any examples of a similar team rising up through the years from a 2-loss team to a national contender? My history with CFB is somewhat new!

Just curious on people's perceptions or expectations long-term of the program.
Click to expand...

Below is a link to the Bowl Championship Games from 1998 through 2014. It's near the bottom of the page.

Teams like Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Washington, Oregon State (!),UCF, Louisville, West Virginia, Connecticut, Iowa, Cincinnati, Kansas, Hawaii, Wake Forest, Utah etc. have all played in a BCS, major bowl, game.

It's not easy and things need to break your way, but it can be done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowl_Championship_Series
 




diehard said:
http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-42930.html
.
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Thanks for posting. Lots of great nuggets in there that have been discussed over the years.

  • Racial integration
  • Rise of the Vikings
  • Shallow local talent base
  • etc, etc

I'm specifically interested in the U administration over the years. I often see comments like "an administration that doesn't support football". How do people think the U's administration has undermined athletics? There was a comment that stuck out:

"But it all comes down to the fact that four straight presidents (Malcom Moose, C. Peter McGrath, Ken Keller, and Nils Hasselmo) were allowed to deliberately de-emphasize or just plain neglect intercollegiate sports at the U from 1967 when O. Meredith Wilson left office until 1997 when Mark Yudof became president. "
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Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot, just learn more. Is it mainly a budget thing? Or a "look the other way" attitude? What else?
 

Any team can put together a few good years and become relevant. Several posts have already noted teams that have done so. I find one of the biggest hurdles for our Gophers is getting the proper support from the community. There is so much competition in the TC for resources needed to play year in and year out with the big boys.

Case in point, can you name the only college football team that has won a national championship in a city that also had NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL in the same city (I am including the Wild even though they are in St. Paul)?

The competition is real and makes a difference. If and when the Gopher football team become relevant, which i believe they will, I think the the stadium sells out every game and the community will get behind the team. It starts this year! Go Gophs
 

BarnBoy said:
Thanks for posting. Lots of great nuggets in there that have been discussed over the years.

  • Racial integration
  • Rise of the Vikings
  • Shallow local talent base
  • etc, etc

I'm specifically interested in the U administration over the years. I often see comments like "an administration that doesn't support football". How do people think the U's administration has undermined athletics? There was a comment that stuck out:



Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot, just learn more. Is it mainly a budget thing? Or a "look the other way" attitude? What else?
Click to expand...

I was there during the Ken Keller years. His focus was on turning the U of M into a midwest ivy league school and from what I could tell felt athletics was a distraction from that. Funny how 20 years later ivy league schools like Stanford and Harvard have relevant athletic programs and somehow manage the distraction.

Someone listed Baylor, TCU, Michigan State, Oregon, Boise State as examples. Baylor and TCU are based in Texas, that isn't going to happen for us and there is no Phil Knight that I know of to buy our way into relevance. I don't think Boise had the staying power to be considered a perennial national power,

Michigan State is a good example of great coaching, great school, good program turning around over time. Dantonio started 2006, 2010 share of big ten title, won it 2013, 2015. Their last big title before Dantonio was 1990.

Do you know in year one you have a Dantonio? Probably not. He record was around .500 at Cincinnati in three previous years.

Does Claeys have the DNA/experience/track record that gives him a chance to be that next great coach? Probably as much as most of the candidates that are out there, but there is a lot of luck involved in finding that next Dantonio
 

BarnBoy said:
Thanks for posting. Lots of great nuggets in there that have been discussed over the years.

  • Racial integration
  • Rise of the Vikings
  • Shallow local talent base
  • etc, etc

I'm specifically interested in the U administration over the years. I often see comments like "an administration that doesn't support football". How do people think the U's administration has undermined athletics? There was a comment that stuck out:



Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot, just learn more. Is it mainly a budget thing? Or a "look the other way" attitude? What else?
Click to expand...

Seems the basketball and hockey teams did just fine. I actually think the administration is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. The budget thing has been be-dunked many times.

What exactly do you mean by "look the other way"?
 


HoustonTXGopher said:
Any team can put together a few good years and become relevant. Several posts have already noted teams that have done so. I find one of the biggest hurdles for our Gophers is getting the proper support from the community. There is so much competition in the TC for resources needed to play year in and year out with the big boys.

Case in point, can you name the only college football team that has won a national championship in a city that also had NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL in the same city (I am including the Wild even though they are in St. Paul)?

The competition is real and makes a difference. If and when the Gopher football team become relevant, which i believe they will, I think the the stadium sells out every game and the community will get behind the team. It starts this year! Go Gophs
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USC.

I would argue the insular/exclusive methods of selecting a champion has done more to perpetuate helmet schools than anything else. Faulty polls or selection committee rankings beget faulty perceptions and a cavalcade of mounting errors ensues, rather than a more equitable tournament of conference champions. Players naturally gravitate to helmet schools, the best coaches jump ship from lesser schools, and the cycle continues. Perhaps there is too much money involved now to slay this dragon.
 

HoustonTXGopher said:
can you name the only college football team that has won a national championship in a city that also had NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL in the same city (I am including the Wild even though they are in St. Paul)?
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Has to be Miami in 2001, although technically the Panthers play in Sunrise.
 

Pompus, when was the last time insular methods of selecting a national champion adversely affected the Gophers?
The Gophers have not been relavent for decades.
Neither has NE despite their more recent national championships.
Times change, the land grant schools are excellent public universities.
Given the make up of the populations only a few of the land grant schools have a chance at a national championships.
World class scholarship is more important to the students and the state than athletics.
 

olddoc said:
Pompus, when was the last time insular methods of selecting a national champion adversely affected the Gophers?
The Gophers have not been relavent for decades.
Neither has NE despite their more recent national championships.
Times change, the land grant schools are excellent public universities.
Given the make up of the populations only a few of the land grant schools have a chance at a national championships.
World class scholarship is more important to the students and the state than athletics.
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Pretty sure he's referring to a cumulative affect...
 

I wasn't specifically referring to the Gophers. I got a little off topic.

For me, I don't really care that much about national championships. I'm focused on the Big Ten race. Beating our rivals, winning the West, going to the Rose Bowl (or other comparable bowl), or the Big Ten champtionship.

If anyone is seriously lamenting that we won't be Ohio State, Alabama, etc anytime soon they should seriously consider following the mercenary Vikings, and pledge their wallet to the realtor Zygi. It is conceivable we can have success like MSU or Stanford, or a tier below like an Iowa or Wisconsin. There will be recruiting challenges that limit the team to some extent. Cultivating more football players/retaining more recruits is a great place to start. Finding a coach with the "next big thing" in Xs and Os.
 

The Gophers haven't been as relevant as they have the last few years since the 60's (minus a few years here and there). As much as some people on here want to dislike Kill, he did more than any coach since the 60's to build enthusiasm for this program, equaling or surpassing Lou Holtz. As much as some might not like it, he pushed and had the right personality, guts, and fortitude to change the perceptions of administrators and get the new facility project started and realized. He's relentless. You're absolutely lying to yourself if you think that happens without Kill. That man never turned down a request.

Obviously you need support from the University President and you need a very good AD. Kaler seems the most willing to do what it takes to legitimately compete in football more than any president I know of at Minnesota. And Mark Coyle seems like a real AD that is professional and intelligent. He won't stay if he's not supported though, he's that talented. Jerry Kill did yeoman's work to build a culture of big time college football in Minneapolis and throughout Minnesota. Who could of, or would of even tried to do what he did??? There's a reason the Glen Mason years were the pinnacle of Minnesota football the prior 45 years.

So with the stadium, the facilities, the president, the other important people Kill educated, and the new AD, things are positioned better than they have been in 50 years. The question will be, can this coach, AD, and President build on the fabulous work Jerry Kill and the people who built this beautiful stadium did??? And will the passionate fans of this team and the people of Minnesota passionately support this endeavor?

The last thing I'll say is that from what I hear, the game day experience is the next big area of opportunity and I hope our new AD really embraces and improves that. Like Coach Kill said, "it should be the biggest damn party in the state of Minnesota every Saturday (or Thursday)"! And he's damn right! U and city officials need to embrace this!

Keep the momentum going Gopherholers. Believe it, demand it, and enjoy it! College football is the greatest sporting event in America.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Pompous Elitist said:
USC.

I would argue the insular/exclusive methods of selecting a champion has done more to perpetuate helmet schools than anything else. Faulty polls or selection committee rankings beget faulty perceptions and a cavalcade of mounting errors ensues, rather than a more equitable tournament of conference champions. Players naturally gravitate to helmet schools, the best coaches jump ship from lesser schools, and the cycle continues. Perhaps there is too much money involved now to slay this dragon.
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USC is incorrect. They haven't had football in LA for quite some time and prior they did not have hockey.
 


Pompous Elitist said:
TCU, Oregon, Boise St, Michigan State, Baylor off the top of my head.

The entrenched interests that support abominations like the BCS and to a lesser extent the limited playoff managed to keep upstarts from championship opportunities; rather pitting traditional teams against each other thus perpetuating the cycle. There was even a year two very good teams in TCU and Boise were matched up in the BCS instead of allowing them to play helmet teams.

The right coach with the right plan can take a team places. The stars have to align with players, injuries etc but success can be built. Don't stop Believin'.
Click to expand...

The awful truth. The reason why the CFP settled on 4 teams was not so much bowl traditions or money. They knew/know full well that 5 (P5 Champs) and 3 (At Large) teams in a CFP would generate ludicrous amounts of cash. Ultimately, IMO, it was about keeping the haves haves and the have nots have nots. Just listen to your average P5 network sentiments. This rationale is called "A strong ___ is good for ___". Example: "A strong Michigan is good for the B1G TEN/college football." Yet, conversely, a strong Michigan State, however, is not good for the B1G/college football. These statements are often heard on BTN/ESPN because (A) they are a "haves" alumni and/or (B) they've been programmed to believe that FBS parity=DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN, THE SKY IS FALLING!:cool:
 

Nax5 said:
MN will never be relevant in CFB.

Now, this isn't a tattle-tale post or anything. It actually made me stop and think. Michigan appears to be on the up - already eyeing National Championships. That said, we almost defeated that team last year and probably should have. A loss is a loss, of course. I enjoy each and every Gopher game at least a little, even if it is a total blowout, so the thought of an irrelevant future doesn't bother me completely. But it does make me wonder. Will MN ever be able to compete at the national level? Are there any examples of a similar team rising up through the years from a 2-loss team to a national contender? My history with CFB is somewhat new!

Just curious on people's perceptions or expectations long-term of the program.
Click to expand...

Well, the Gophers did go from a 2-win season in 1959 to the national championship in 1960 and a Rose Bowl appearance. Michigan will be competing at the highest level, along with Ohio State and both teams have big advantages over Minnesota. But Iowa, Baylor, Oregon, Wisconsin, Kansas State have gone from mediocrity to the top ten - we should be able to do that, too. I'd be happy if we were competitive in the West every year, which means climbing over Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern and an improving Nebraska.
 

BarnBoy said:
Can you give me some examples of how you've seen this happen over the years? I agree with you, but struggle to explain this to my out-of-state friends and colleagues.
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In the 1960's, the administration tried to drop football. It is well known. They worked with their puppet, the student government, to encourage students to not attend games. Admin used his alliance to stop student violence and show that Minnesota was completely against the Vietnam war. In the 70's there were booths at Kaufman and students with flyers that continued the same. The only thing that stemmed the tide incrementally was that the Iran students began their "Kill the Shah, Kill Carter, Death to America" protests. We students partially used football as a way to say "f-that", this is America. Ended up with the stupid Dome deal, but football lived. I was there.
 

My two cents: The fact that Michigan fans are starting to talk smack at us is proof that we are becoming "relevant". Trust me, they don't even notice the Purdues, Indianas, and Illinois' of the world. They ignore them. I have also had Michigan fans give me some good natured razzing.
 

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