marcus asks if gopher athletics should address how athletes feel about police

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alchemy2u said:
So true. As long as people pick just one side there will be no progress. We have to address the root issues to the problems and work together to improve the situation.

Siting stats that cops kill more white people than black people does not add any comfort to the situation. In fact, it should frighten us all. Don't get me wrong, I am not anti police, but something has to be done about the militarization of our police forces. They are here to serve and protect, not to carry out the objectives of the military.


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Fantasyland.

No offense.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Looking deeper at the studies, it turns out black cops stop blacks as often as white cops (eg even majority black departments like the New Orleans PD). How can this be? Perhaps they understand the criminal profile better than Old Goph. The data on profiling is surprisingly bad. Not saying it doesn't happen but I don't think it amounts to open war. Young men are disproportionately engaged by police because young men and particularly black and to a lesser extent Latino commit the majority of crime. Is it possible bad statistics could be seized upon by those with a pre-existing narrative, for political purposes? Surely not.

Scenario: a young middle-eastern man wearing a bulky jacket on an 85 degree day walks into your airport. Do you search him or a 50 yr old Hispanic lady, or a 8 yr old Caucasian girl? Are you profiling or just using common sense?
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That's ok if you don't care to address my points. Perhaps I haven't addressed yours either. I'm hopping off this particular merry go round.
 

Old Goph said:
That's ok if you don't care to address my points. Perhaps I haven't addressed yours either. I'm hopping off this particular merry go round.
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I did address your points. You just don't like the answers.

So many crackpots on the fringes of the left (and the right) are startled to find out many don't share their worldview, and the numbers don't support their positions as much as they'd like to think. I will agree with Alchemy on something; until we address the root causes nothing will improve. We simply disagree on the causes. I think it's children without positive role models, lack of mentors guiding them through turbulent childhoods, gang activity, crime, and a resulting lack of interest in schools and earning degrees and employability. I don't think there are "easy" answers to those things. If a wealthy, very low unemployment, progressive, open-minded (I think?) state like Minnesota with robust social services and educational funding cannot elevate the poverty-stricken then what. Throw in the towel? Are there any examples around the world where the african-american community is doing as well as whites? Serious question as I don't know. Great Britain? Europe? Norway/Sweden? Africa?

Instead of holding commuters hostage, I'd like to see the BLM supporters standing in line at the local Big Brother/Big Sister office and make a definitive and positive difference in their communities. Support youth athletics leagues, etc etc. Stop the "ban football (and basketball...and hockey and so on)" madness. So many poverty-stricken kids are never given a chance. Ultimately, that's on the parents and as they get older the kids themselves.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I did address your points. You just don't like the answers.

So many crackpots on the fringes of the left (and the right) are startled to find out many don't share their worldview, and the numbers don't support their positions as much as they'd like to think. I will agree with Alchemy on something; until we address the root causes nothing will improve. We simply disagree on the causes. I think it's children without positive role models, lack of mentors guiding them through turbulent childhoods, gang activity, crime, and a resulting lack of interest in schools and earning degrees and employability. I don't think there are "easy" answers to those things. If a wealthy, very low unemployment, progressive, open-minded (I think?) state like Minnesota with robust social services and educational funding cannot elevate the poverty-stricken then what. Throw in the towel? Are there any examples around the world where the african-american community is doing as well as whites? Serious question as I don't know. Great Britain? Europe? Norway/Sweden? Africa?

Instead of holding commuters hostage, I'd like to see the BLM supporters standing in line at the local Big Brother/Big Sister office and make a definitive and positive difference in their communities. Support youth athletics leagues, etc etc. Stop the "ban football (and basketball...and hockey and so on)" madness. So many poverty-stricken kids are never given a chance. Ultimately, that's on the parents and as they get older the kids themselves.
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Ok, you feel like you addressed my issues. Maybe somewhere in that hurricane of words you did. It's just that you're all over the board and somewhat fixated on BLM and gangs, and wars on cops, etc. I was coming at this from a much more narrow perspective and from my own point of reference. Because of where I live and my social circle, the black people I encounter are not experiencing poverty, have grown up in very supportive and healthy families and in many cases quite well off financially. They also describe themselves as victims of profiling. You can say that black cops stop black drivers and that somehow negates or mitigates the effect. The folks on the other end of profiling probably don't care who's doing the stopping as much as they care about who's being stopped. And yeah, I would agree with common sense profiling, e.g. subjecting a suicide vest wearing terrorist looking individual to more scrutiny at the airport than the frail grandma with the walker. My bottom line issue is that you seem to be ok with a segment of our citizenry experiencing less freedom to move around than others, so long as you're not personally affected.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I did address your points. You just don't like the answers.

So many crackpots on the fringes of the left (and the right) are startled to find out many don't share their worldview, and the numbers don't support their positions as much as they'd like to think. I will agree with Alchemy on something; until we address the root causes nothing will improve. We simply disagree on the causes. I think it's children without positive role models, lack of mentors guiding them through turbulent childhoods, gang activity, crime, and a resulting lack of interest in schools and earning degrees and employability. I don't think there are "easy" answers to those things. If a wealthy, very low unemployment, progressive, open-minded (I think?) state like Minnesota with robust social services and educational funding cannot elevate the poverty-stricken then what. Throw in the towel? Are there any examples around the world where the african-american community is doing as well as whites? Serious question as I don't know. Great Britain? Europe? Norway/Sweden? Africa?

Instead of holding commuters hostage, I'd like to see the BLM supporters standing in line at the local Big Brother/Big Sister office and make a definitive and positive difference in their communities. Support youth athletics leagues, etc etc. Stop the "ban football (and basketball...and hockey and so on)" madness. So many poverty-stricken kids are never given a chance. Ultimately, that's on the parents and as they get older the kids themselves.
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Please enlighten us and tell me what social deficiency this perpetrator is suffering from, because from your explanation it can't be the officers fault:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFYTtgZAlE



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highwayman said:
Pure ignorance. The root of this problem is not the police. At all. It has not been escalated by the police. At all. It is ALWAYS escalated by the bad guys. Always. You can't protect or serve a society that has been wrecked by the loss of self control, respect, and personal responsibility.

I think the cops do a fabulous job of managing an unmanageable situation. I say we set up zones like "Escape From New York" or "Mad Max" and see how it works, because that is what happens when you remove the police. The lions kill the lambs. The 20% of the society that are feral will destroy the rest.

Done with this thread. Love your family.
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No realistic person is saying to remove the police. Most police do a very good job with the tough situations that they face. But to say police can never be a part of the problem is very myopic. Police training such as this described in this Star Tribune article is an example of the point I am making about militarization of the force:

http://www.startribune.com/officer-in-castile-case-attended-bulletproof-warrior-training/386717431/



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alchemy2u said:
Please enlighten us and tell me what social deficiency this perpetrator is suffering from, because from your explanation it can't be the officers fault:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFYTtgZAlE

I've said all along there are bad cops. It doesn't mean they are all like that. That's stereotyping.

The LAPD had a couple incidents a few years back where they had officers shoot up two different cars that allegedly matched a suspect's vehicle (a former cop cop-killer). One of the trucks wasn't even the same make, and had two old Hispanic ladies delivering newspapers (the suspect was an enormous black man). The other truck was a white guy going to the beach to catch some early waves. The cops were so jumpy they shot first and did positive ID later. The victims were unhurt but obviously traumatized and settled for huge payouts. The cops were later cleared, to my knowledge. That was wrong. They should not be cops or have access to guns. I would say the same of the cop in your video and a few others I've seen. But, I haven't seen evidence that dumb cops are specifically targeting black people on a widespread basis. Most of the shootings look justified although pacifists may disagree.

Get them (bad cops) off the streets. I've said all along the police don't police themselves very well which leads to some of the rancor.
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Old Goph said:
Ok, you feel like you addressed my issues. Maybe somewhere in that hurricane of words you did. It's just that you're all over the board and somewhat fixated on BLM and gangs, and wars on cops, etc. I was coming at this from a much more narrow perspective and from my own point of reference. Because of where I live and my social circle, the black people I encounter are not experiencing poverty, have grown up in very supportive and healthy families and in many cases quite well off financially. They also describe themselves as victims of profiling. You can say that black cops stop black drivers and that somehow negates or mitigates the effect. The folks on the other end of profiling probably don't care who's doing the stopping as much as they care about who's being stopped. And yeah, I would agree with common sense profiling, e.g. subjecting a suicide vest wearing terrorist looking individual to more scrutiny at the airport than the frail grandma with the walker. My bottom line issue is that you seem to be ok with a segment of our citizenry experiencing less freedom to move around than others, so long as you're not personally affected.
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Many groups are discriminated against and persecuted to some degree. Look at the Jewish experience. Persecuted for millennia all around the world, they are a culture that values learning, scholarship, family, and not disappointing mom. They have absurd levels of success per capita in many fields. Sometimes despite persecution, real or imagined, success can be obtained. There are millions of successful black people in this country. What was their secret?
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Many groups are discriminated against and persecuted to some degree. Look at the Jewish experience. Persecuted for millennia all around the world, they are a culture that values learning, scholarship, family, and not disappointing mom. They have absurd levels of success per capita in many fields. Sometimes despite persecution, real or imagined, success can be obtained. There are millions of successful black people in this country. What was their secret?
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Ok, I see you've strung some words together and made some sentences. I imagine you believe this is a response to something I wrote. I'll have to admit I'm at a loss to come up with any connection here. No offense to you. I'm just not getting it. Take care.
 



Frankly, I would advise the players to avoid Viking players, who since 2000 have been on a tear of arrests, from brandishing weapons, to sex boat scandals. Then, I would advise them to not do the stupid things that attract police attention. Such things might include breaking the law or acting reckless. Beyond that, there isn't much to talk about.
 

Old Goph said:
Ok, I see you've strung some words together and made some sentences. I imagine you believe this is a response to something I wrote. I'll have to admit I'm at a loss to come up with any connection here. No offense to you. I'm just not getting it. Take care.
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The point is that discrimination, whether because of religion, physical characteristics such as skin color, attractiveness, weight, what have you, doesn't have to be a limiting factor. Did the alleged racial profiling keep your friends from success? No.

I'm sorry you don't get it. Many people don't get it.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
The point is that discrimination, whether because of religion, physical characteristics such as skin color, attractiveness, weight, what have you, doesn't have to be a limiting factor. Did the alleged racial profiling keep your friends from success? No.

I'm sorry you don't get it. Many people don't get it.
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Well that was a more obvious point than I had considered. What I guess you're missing is my point. While discrimination did not deter these people from becoming and continuing to be successful, they still must endure discrimination. Is your point really that because they are successful, why sweat the minor inconvenience of a little discrimination? And that because you felt targeted when you were a kid, you can identify and it's not such a big deal? Here's where I think we leave this discussion- I think discrimination is a way bigger deal than you seem to.
 

Discrimination is rampant and part of the human condition. We discriminate all day long, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. What gets me is the misplaced anger, the lack of accountability, and the stirring of the pot by vested interests. The self-centeredness. Do all white people understand what a black person experiences? Probably not. Do black people understand what a muslim woman experienes? Or an asylum-seeker from Syria or Somalia? Or an immigrant from Mexico or Vietnam? How about cancer patients? Amputees? Lupus or Crohn's Disease? Is it necessary that we fully understand the day to day experience of every person on earth?

Someone posted this on my feed today. This chief just left a community meeting regarding the controversial shooting of a black man, attended by BLM supporters. This is how many feel about BlackLivesMatter and the constant propaganda feed regarding race issues.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/T7MAO7McNKE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 



Pompous Elitist said:
The point is that discrimination, whether because of religion, physical characteristics such as skin color, attractiveness, weight, what have you, doesn't have to be a limiting factor. Did the alleged racial profiling keep your friends from success? No.

I'm sorry you don't get it. Many people don't get it.
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Even after all these discussions, you still have no concept of the underlying issues. Wall, here is PE, PE here is wall, you two can continue the discussion.

And now for something completely different. How about those Gophers!



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Old Goph said:
Well that was a more obvious point than I had considered. What I guess you're missing is my point. While discrimination did not deter these people from becoming and continuing to be successful, they still must endure discrimination. Is your point really that because they are successful, why sweat the minor inconvenience of a little discrimination? And that because you felt targeted when you were a kid, you can identify and it's not such a big deal? Here's where I think we leave this discussion- I think discrimination is a way bigger deal than you seem to.
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I will expand What is diferent here is people died. Most people that have experienced less than perfect interactions have considered it an inconvenience. People dying takes it to another level. I am glad that individuals such as yourself are thinking and asking questions such as; could we do things differently? Could we do things to generate better outcomes. Some may disagree, but I am happy that we as a society want more.

To P.E. I was away from this board for a couple of days. I will try to respond to some posts later. Or not. My guess is my posting has become personal with you. I will try to read them later and see if that is what I sense. If so, I won't respond.

Cheers!
 

Pompous Elitist said:
The problem is that you're extrapolating your personal experiences onto the police force as a whole. It is natural for us to do that, but we should try and resist. Most blacks are not criminal thugs. Some are. Can I go around saying blacks are waging open war on society?

You're doing exactly what you say the police should not do, which is form sweeping generalizations and stereotypes.
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So.... Let me get this straight. Me stating within my response that I have an issue with bad policing not police in general is sweeping generalizations?

Furthermore, you are stating that I am extrapolating my personal experiences onto "the police force" as a whole? It was just an example. The unfortunate reality is the example is more frequent than many of us would like. That reality is a mix of good and bad experiences. Some of us are comfortable with status quo. Some of us tend to think that if there is an opportunity to improve we want to seize that opportunity.
 


highwayman said:
Pure ignorance. The root of this problem is not the police. At all. It has not been escalated by the police. At all. It is ALWAYS escalated by the bad guys. Always. You can't protect or serve a society that has been wrecked by the loss of self control, respect, and personal responsibility.

I think the cops do a fabulous job of managing an unmanageable situation. I say we set up zones like "Escape From New York" or "Mad Max" and see how it works, because that is what happens when you remove the police. The lions kill the lambs. The 20% of the society that are feral will destroy the rest.

Done with this thread. Love your family.
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http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/07/13/st-anthony-police-training/

http://www.startribune.com/officer-in-castile-case-attended-bulletproof-warrior-training/386717431/

http://www.businessinsider.com/offi...-attended-bulletproof-warrior-training-2016-7

My humble opinion is that it is fair to question whether or not this type of training is appropriate for dealing with civilians.

Though there is a difference of opinion, I would argue that those raising a counter argument love their families as well. That is why they are stating their opinion.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
No they should not be baited by the media into this false narrative. It's certainly not for their benefit that he suggests or asks the question
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From Coach Claeys(linked below):"Sid: advantages?
TC: keeping track of kids. see them, check in with them. we're responsible for how they act, on campus or off-campus. we see them each week, remind them to make good choices, do a good job in class. good decision by NCAA to change rules." - Though out of context, Coach Claeys, (and Coach Kill) have said essentially the same thing numerous times.

http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?68959-Tracy-Claeys-on-Sports-Huddle-7-17-16

You can question the motives of Mr. Fuller, but his tweet has some merit. Based on comments such as the one listed, Coach Claeys most likely did talk to ALL of his players. Could have been as simple as be careful out there. Do the right thing and you'll be okay. We will always be there for you...It is very common for coaches to take on the role of surrogate/ subsitute father while the player is at the school they coach for. "Dads" talk to "sons" all of the time. From a recruiting perspective, parents will want to know that coaches take a high level of interest in the lives of their players. I would think that parents would like to know that their child is being taken care of when they are away from home.

The specifics about the Falcon Heights insident is noise in this conversation. Relevent conversations, but not necessarily team specific.
 

STPGopher said:
From Coach Claeys(linked below):"Sid: advantages?
TC: keeping track of kids. see them, check in with them. we're responsible for how they act, on campus or off-campus. we see them each week, remind them to make good choices, do a good job in class. good decision by NCAA to change rules." - Though out of context, Coach Claeys, (and Coach Kill) have said essentially the same thing numerous times.

http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?68959-Tracy-Claeys-on-Sports-Huddle-7-17-16

You can question the motives of Mr. Fuller, but his tweet has some merit. Based on comments such as the one listed, Coach Claeys most likely did talk to ALL of his players. Could have been as simple as be careful out there. Do the right thing and you'll be okay. We will always be there for you...It is very common for coaches to take on the role of surrogate/ subsitute father while the player is at the school they coach for. "Dads" talk to "sons" all of the time. From a recruiting perspective, parents will want to know that coaches take a high level of interest in the lives of their players. I would think that parents would like to know that their child is being taken care of when they are away from home.

The specifics about the Falcon Heights insident is noise in this conversation. Relevent conversations, but not necessarily team specific.
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What does this quote have to do with the players feelings about the police? He's talking about monitoring the behavior of the players, not the police.
 

STPGopher said:
From Coach Claeys(linked below):"Sid: advantages?
TC: keeping track of kids. see them, check in with them. we're responsible for how they act, on campus or off-campus. we see them each week, remind them to make good choices, do a good job in class. good decision by NCAA to change rules." - Though out of context, Coach Claeys, (and Coach Kill) have said essentially the same thing numerous times.

http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?68959-Tracy-Claeys-on-Sports-Huddle-7-17-16

You can question the motives of Mr. Fuller, but his tweet has some merit. Based on comments such as the one listed, Coach Claeys most likely did talk to ALL of his players. Could have been as simple as be careful out there. Do the right thing and you'll be okay. We will always be there for you...It is very common for coaches to take on the role of surrogate/ subsitute father while the player is at the school they coach for. "Dads" talk to "sons" all of the time. From a recruiting perspective, parents will want to know that coaches take a high level of interest in the lives of their players. I would think that parents would like to know that their child is being taken care of when they are away from home.

The specifics about the Falcon Heights insident is noise in this conversation. Relevent conversations, but not necessarily team specific.
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Yes. We can all argue in circles about the politics of the situation in our country, but in terms of Gopher football ( I think that is this forum, right?), the African-American players certainly have a cause to be concerned. I'm not targeting the state of Minnesota because it is always better here than other places, because we are exceptional, but I can understand the fear of being considered an "other."
 

GopherHomer said:
Yes. We can all argue in circles about the politics of the situation in our country, but in terms of Gopher football ( I think that is this forum, right?), the African-American players certainly have a cause to be concerned. I'm not targeting the state of Minnesota because it is always better here than other places, because we are exceptional, but I can understand the fear of being considered an "other."
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How so? How many of our Black football players have been shot by the police?
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
What does this quote have to do with the players feelings about the police? He's talking about monitoring the behavior of the players, not the police.
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o
Thinking ahead just a little, what if a player gets stopped in Falcon Heights or St. Anthony for example. How should they respond? Suppose there are some protests? Suppose a fellow student(athlete or not) has strong feelings about this case and is very persuasive in what they say to them. etc., etc., All of these scenarios can eventually fall under the umbrella of player safety, and conduct.

This part of the quote says it all." we're responsible for how they act, on campus or off-campus.". A coach can't stop an officer from pulling a player over, but he can talk to players and offer advice and support.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
As in all things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
People want to divide everything into absolutes.
Cops are always right vs. the Cops are always wrong
Black men are being unfairly profiled vs. Blacks are criminals- profiling is justified.
The stats show X vs. The stats show Y.

Back to original point of thread - I throw out two questions:
A. Should Gopher Coaches discuss these issues with players? I say Yes - better safe than sorry.
B. Do you think they will discuss these issues with players? Again, I say Yes. FB staff puts big emphasis on off-field behavior.
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+1 Thank you for stating it the way you did. Short and to the point. Wish i would have seen this earlier.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
The problem is that you're extrapolating your personal experiences onto the police force as a whole. It is natural for us to do that, but we should try and resist. Most blacks are not criminal thugs. Some are. Can I go around saying blacks are waging open war on society?

You're doing exactly what you say the police should not do, which is form sweeping generalizations and stereotypes.
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The following link is from a Northwestern board. It is a story from an University of Iowa grad via Naperville:

https://northwestern.forums.rivals.com/threads/ot-wonderful-post-from-an-iowa-grad.25657/
 


As I always told my players: Do what's right because it's the right thing to do.
 


Word said:
Would like to see more of this type of thing happening and/or see news cover it more when it does happen. I still remember as a kid, my brother and I were playing catch with a baseball in front of our house. A local cop stopped by and got out his radar gun to see how fast we were throwing. It certainly helped me have a positive view of the local police.
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Obviously me too. I don't have that particular memory, but like I stated in a previous post, I have had positive interactions as well. What got lost in some of the back and forth was/ is what caused things to shift. I used to hear of stories in St. Paul of some police being more like old school firemen and engaging with the community. Quoting some elders; "you catch more with honey than vinegar".
 


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