Pitino post NU - That was not the team that I was proud to coach for the past 3 wks

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Doc1001 said:
I have had enouigh of Murphy getting two fouls in first 10 minutes every game. If I were coach I would now sit him the rest of the game when he does that as he just isnt getting the message any other way. That has really hurt us this year and it never ends.
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Or keep him in the game until he fouls out. That way he, murphy, determines his bench time
 

There is no excuse for poor defense ever. It can and has been taught incredibly well to teams with less talent than this one.
 

builtbadgers said:
There is no excuse for poor defense ever. It can and has been taught incredibly well to teams with less talent than this one.
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FWIW, defense does require talent too. Just as offense does. And the defense has been far better than it was against Northwestern in multiple games this year.

Defense requires effort just as offense does. But it's not like I can step on the court and be a good defender if I just try super hard. Kawhi Leonard isn't an elite defender simply because he tries harder than anyone else.

Can coaching mask a lack of talent in D? Absolutely and the Gophers should be better than they were against NU. But if you're trying to argue defense is only effort and coaching and nothing else I'd have to disagree. Morris and Buggs (and to a lesser extent King) were specifically targeted over and over by NU and when those are your 3 upperclassmen not sure what else you can do.
 

scher215 said:
FWIW, defense does require talent too. Just as offense does. And the defense has been far better than it was against Northwestern in multiple games this year.

Defense requires effort just as offense does. But it's not like I can step on the court and be a good defender if I just try super hard. Kawhi Leonard isn't an elite defender simply because he tries harder than anyone else.

Can coaching mask a lack of talent in D? Absolutely and the Gophers should be better than they were against NU. But if you're trying to argue defense is only effort and coaching and nothing else I'd have to disagree. Morris and Buggs (and to a lesser extent King) were specifically targeted over and over by NU and when those are your 3 upperclassmen not sure what else you can do.
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I think in Buggs case it was effort. He has the build to be an elite defender, but he's up and down effort wise and he's not exactly the brightest bulb. King is what he is, he was never brought in for his defensive prowless. I think Pitino was betting on having someone better by now, he does, but the kid can't stay out of foul trouble. Would help if Martin hadn't bailed either
 

Hammer em' said:
You could tell this team became disinterested right before half. It's the "here we go again" syndrome. Tough for any coach, good or bad to stop that mental break down. There were spurts the defense played well in the first half-some decent adjustments and hustle. Simply, players were not coming over the top of screens(which I'm certain they were told to do) as Northwestern wasn't going to slash to the basket but rather shoot. Defensive players- all around were making mistakes that I haven't seen over the last 3 weeks like I saw tonight- losing guys in the corner, losing people behind them.... This is what happens to a young team that's lacking confidence and gets behind quickly....players loose focus, games get away quickly and fans fall quickly off the bandwagon.

I've been on the bandwagon for my entire life and one rebuilding season won't change that. Despite what many believe, I do think Pitino can coach. There are several big name coaches really struggling this year who may not make the tourney. Freshmen generally are freshmen.
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I agree.
 


Doc1001 said:
I have had enouigh of Murphy getting two fouls in first 10 minutes every game. If I were coach I would now sit him the rest of the game when he does that as he just isnt getting the message any other way. That has really hurt us this year and it never ends.
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This. When he got his 4th foul, I said bench him for the rest of the game. The game was over at that point anyway, even though there were like, what, 12 minutes left? I love him and he can be a very good player, but he keeps doing the same thing every game. He logged 4 minutes in the first half. AGAIN.
 

bemidjigopher said:
I think in Buggs case it was effort. He has the build to be an elite defender, but he's up and down effort wise and he's not exactly the brightest bulb. King is what he is, he was never brought in for his defensive prowless. I think Pitino was betting on having someone better by now, he does, but the kid can't stay out of foul trouble. Would help if Martin hadn't bailed either
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I tried to keep an eye on Buggs at times last night. Often he would just walk around with his head down and staring at the floor.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
This place is hilarious. Overreactions both ways every damn game on this board. it's a bad young team, there will be more games like Indiana and I expect more games like Northwestern. It's the same coach that had a great gameplan against the last 3 opponents that had a ****ty one against Northwestern.

There is 0 room for error with this roster. There isn't one player out there to dig us out of a hole, and you can't just create that, you can't coach that, they have to learn that through experience or years in the gym as elite basketball players. We don't have those kids today. He's got a team that relies heavily on one guy that gets in foul trouble A LOT! Everyone on this board admits how flawed the roster is today, now take Jordan Murphy away, how much more flawed is it? No one is coaching through a team with as little talent/experience as ours that hangs their head in defeat with every foul Murph gets, they know they are screwed once he hits the bench.

Pitino wshould get next year and I'll argue he should get the year after just from a program stability standpoint. He is not as bad as his two losses to Northwestern would indicate.

Calm the F down.
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Sounds good, as we continue down the path of having the worst Gopher basketball season in modern history. Love the plan of waiting another 1-2 years. Maybe by then we can hit 10 wins for the season. Yea!!
 

goldy93 said:
Sounds good, as we continue down the path of having the worst Gopher basketball season in modern history. Love the plan of waiting another 1-2 years. Maybe by then we can hit 10 wins for the season. Yea!!
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So I take it your plan would be to fire Pitino now? with his buyout. and sign who as head coach?
 




goldy93 said:
Sounds good, as we continue down the path of having the worst Gopher basketball season in modern history. Love the plan of waiting another 1-2 years. Maybe by then we can hit 10 wins for the season. Yea!!
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You can't get a sense of urgency out of fans who settle for mediocrity and lethargy. This program is being strangled by season ticket holders who ply their "wait and see next season" mentality in hopes that the already outraged general public will magically create a desire to purchase season tickets in the future.

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Ewert86PC said:
+1,000

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The goal wasn't to demonstrate how ****ty the team is. The goal was simply to demonstrate that yesterday's game was not a result of NW being a better defense than IU.
 

justthefacts said:
The goal wasn't to demonstrate how ****ty the team is. The goal was simply to demonstrate that yesterday's game was not a result of NW being a better defense than IU.
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No, it was an example of how this ****ty team take the luxury of playing down to their opponents skill level and it epically blows up in their face.

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Doc1001 said:
I have had enouigh of Murphy getting two fouls in first 10 minutes every game. If I were coach I would now sit him the rest of the game when he does that as he just isnt getting the message any other way. That has really hurt us this year and it never ends.
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How will a kid learn to play w/o fouling if he's not allowed to play?
 

Ewert86PC said:
You can't get a sense of urgency out of fans who settle for mediocrity and lethargy. This program is being strangled by season ticket holders who ply their "wait and see next season" mentality in hopes that the already outraged general public will magically create a desire to purchase season tickets in the future.

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I guess I'll have to throw a hissy fit or else start lobbying that you be put in charge since you have all the answers. Damn, didn't know my buying tickets was the reason for this mess.
 

Mulligan said:
I guess I'll have to throw a hissy fit or else start lobbying that you be put in charge since you have all the answers. Damn, didn't know my buying tickets was the reason for this mess.
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What's your other option, quit buying season tickets? Speak up more to the administration? Find better alternatives?

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Never made the statement that you do not need talent to defend. Just that it is not as skill driven and have seen guys build from the bottom by making defense the priority , the foundation and the identity of the program. Archie Miller, Sean Miller, Tony Bennett, Greg Marshall and on and on. Bob Knight gave a coaching clinic last summer about how you have to build this way because it can and should be constant where as shooting well can not be sustainable. Gophs would not be winless if they played lock down defense. You tube Rick Pitino press conference after the latest UVA beatdown at Louisville. Listen closely. This kind of coaching results in NCAA bids quickly and a recent 40-6 ACC record ! Of course they had a team of great leadership and referrals to hire the right coach. The UM has had such poor leadership from the top for such a really long time.
 

goldy93 said:
Sounds good, as we continue down the path of having the worst Gopher basketball season in modern history. Love the plan of waiting another 1-2 years. Maybe by then we can hit 10 wins for the season. Yea!!
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What do you expect any coach (more specifically, anyone that would come to Minnesota without a full time AD and a recent history of being quick to fire coaches) to do in the next "1-2 years" to get above 10 wins?

How about having a top 25 recruiting class, and a roster full of upperclassmen that have been playing together for 2-3 years. By my count, Pitino has that covered 2 yeas from now. Firing him is just giving the next guy the keys to a car that Pitino built.


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Tim1406 said:
So I take it your plan would be to fire Pitino now? with his buyout. and sign who as head coach?
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Yes. Worked out for Iowa when they got rid of Lickliter. Sometimes you need to admit you made a mistake and move on, not suffer through 2 more years of utter ineptitude. Some people believe we need to continue down this path. I don't.
 

bc2211 said:
What do you expect any coach (more specifically, anyone that would come to Minnesota without a full time AD and a recent history of being quick to fire coaches) to do in the next "1-2 years" to get above 10 wins?

How about having a top 25 recruiting class, and a roster full of upperclassmen that have been playing together for 2-3 years. By my count, Pitino has that covered 2 yeas from now. Firing him is just giving the next guy the keys to a car that Pitino built.


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Tubby came in to a 9-win team and won 20 games. I assume people believe Molinari would have done the same thing (or Monson) if given another year?
 

Ewert86PC said:
You can't get a sense of urgency out of fans who settle for mediocrity and lethargy. This program is being strangled by season ticket holders who ply their "wait and see next season" mentality in hopes that the already outraged general public will magically create a desire to purchase season tickets in the future.

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What's funny is others are saying Pitino should be fired because many season ticket holders have said "enough is enough" and the crowds have been bad. Now you're saying it is the fault of the season ticket holders because they are being too patient. Which one is it? Can't be both.

Once again I will say that the "settle for mediocrity" argument is ridiculous in my opinion. I'm a Gophers fan who is going to support the team no matter what happens. Because I don't throw a huge fit when things get bad doesn't mean I'm okay with how things are.
 

GophersInIowa said:
What's funny is others are saying Pitino should be fired because many season ticket holders have said "enough is enough" and the crowds have been bad. Now you're saying it is the fault of the season ticket holders because they are being too patient. Which one is it? Can't be both.

Once again I will say that the "settle for mediocrity" argument is ridiculous in my opinion. I'm a Gophers fan who is going to support the team no matter what happens. Because I don't throw a huge fit when things get bad doesn't mean I'm okay with how things are.
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I would say this is an spectacularly impotent season. It is an infamously bad season that will be talked about in shame lore for generations. If you are a season ticket holder and you chose to remain quiet about how bad this is, then you are implicitly supporting this mediocrity. You are letting the school administration roam free with their their negligence to athletics.

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EG#9 said:
Northwestern had 19(!!!!!!!) points on their first 7 possessions of the game and Pitino wants to talk about the Gophers allegedly missing "good looks" on the offensive end. Everything about this game was pathetic including the coaching. There was little plan on the offensive end and guys blowing assignments on defense. The fact that you have to go zone against a slow team like Northwestern is an indictment on the players and the staff. Some tough decisions are going to have to be made at the conclusion of the season in terms of roster and staff construction if Pitino is around.
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But, I really loved his game plan this time around. So astute. Everyone go one-on-one when you get the ball, and when you can't get anywhere after 5 to 10 dribbles, pass the ball. All kidding aside, that's EXACTLY how my daughters 3rd grade all girls team plays. I'm not exaggerating. The two teams look exactly alike on offense. He just can't coach. He never played the game and doesn't understand. Collins does.
 

bga1 said:
Problems:

No veteran leadership. The vets don't rebound or play defense. All three like to pump up outside shots.
Physically weak team that cannot rebound
Poor outside shooting team
2/3 of the production is from frosh and sophs

Again, last night is what happens when a team as described above has a bad night. This is a rebuilding year and really year one of the Pitino "era" if we get to see one. This is a comparable squad to Clem's first year and getting similar results. Maybe, according to some posters here, we should have fired Clem right then.
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Well the only difference is Clem's third year we made the Sweet 16....and interest in the team was very high...so no...we shouldn't have fired Clem after his 3rd season. Besides that your thought process is logically flawed. Clem Haskins record as a Gopher coach has zero relationship on how well Pitino will do as coach of the Gophers. It would be like saying Clem Haskins had a bad first year (not third year) as coach (by the way...a totally different situation if you were around watching games back then) so therefore we should keep Les Steckel around to coach...because he obviously will turn out like Haskins. Instead of Steckel, I could have inserted the names Wacker, Brewster or Monson...but I think you would get the point.
 

goldy93 said:
Tubby came in to a 9-win team and won 20 games. I assume people believe Molinari would have done the same thing (or Monson) if given another year?
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Quit making this about Tubby. Talk about celebrating mediocrity.

To your point, however, another well respected coach who has proven his chops is not going to come swooping in and save the day. Our AD department is a mess. Why fire Pitino for $7 million when he is clearly in a well foreseen low point, with no permanent athletic director? Who are we going to lure here after that type of move? We'd be stuck promoting Pomeday. Let Pitino have his due course and if he doesn't right the ship then can him, but don't force him out and banish us to another 3 years of rebuilding through transfers, marginal spring recruits after a firing, and implementing a new culture. Oh and watching the media scrutinize every minor element of the process. If you do want him gone effectively immediately, then buckle up, the current bumps won't even compare.




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ethomasp31 said:
Well the only difference is Clem's third year we made the Sweet 16....and interest in the team was very high...so no...we shouldn't have fired Clem after his 3rd season. Besides that your thought process is logically flawed. Clem Haskins record as a Gopher coach has zero relationship on how well Pitino will do as coach of the Gophers. It would be like saying Clem Haskins had a bad first year (not third year) as coach (by the way...a totally different situation if you were around watching games back then) so therefore we should keep Les Steckel around to coach...because he obviously will turn out like Haskins. Instead of Steckel, I could have inserted the names Wacker, Brewster or Monson...but I think you would get the point.
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It doesn't matter what year the coach is in. What matter is where he is at in the cycle. Clem get a great set of recruits to work with from Dutcher. Burton, Coffey, Newbern, Schick to go with a few vets in Gaffney, Hanson, Smith and others. A very comparable squad to this year's Pitino squad.
Clem went 2-16.
 

bga1 said:
It doesn't matter what year the coach is in. What matter is where he is at in the cycle. Clem get a great set of recruits to work with from Dutcher. Burton, Coffey, Newbern, Schick to go with a few vets in Gaffney, Hanson, Smith and others. A very comparable squad to this year's Pitino squad.
Clem went 2-16.
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I'm hoping Pitino can pull this out also, but comparing what Haskins accomplished and what Pitino might, simply because the squads are similar in your eyes, might be fruitless. Haskins had 3 years under Keady, then 6 years as head man at Western Kentucky. Plus all the the time in the NBA. The guy probably forgot more basketball in a day than most people know. Teams might be similar in players, but huge difference in the guys running the show. Opposite ends of the spectrum actually when looking at it. That being said, as a Gopher fan I really want Pitino to succeed here.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
That being said, as a Gopher fan I really want Pitino to succeed here.
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Well, one could also say "as a Gopher fan, I think our program would be better off firing Pitino." My sentiments are: as a Gopher fan, I want the team to succeed regardless of who is coaching it. I'm not making a clear conclusion that the team should fire Pitino, but, if he is a poor coach (or at least a coach who needs significantly more learning, maturity, and leadership skills before he turns the corner), then the program is worse off by retaining him.

This is an amazingly bad season that only Rutgers' Eddie Jordan among conference coaches is matching. Jordan may be a far more experienced coach, but he's been a fairly poor coach throughout his career and enjoyed only brief success in the NBA when he was able to ride the talent of Gilbert Arenas and company. Another poster mentioned how Iowa improved their program when they replaced Todd Lickliter with McCaffrey. As an Iowa alum I watched the Lickliter years closely and I thought he was the worst Big Ten coach I had ever seen in decades of following the conference, but I'm now thinking that Pitino may deserve that title. Lickliter had, in my opinion, a poorer roster in his final season than Pitino has now, but as bad as Lickliter's final team was, I think it may have outperformed this one (it did win 4 conference games and 10 games overall).
 

bc2211 said:
Quit making this about Tubby. Talk about celebrating mediocrity.

To your point, however, another well respected coach who has proven his chops is not going to come swooping in and save the day. Our AD department is a mess. Why fire Pitino for $7 million when he is clearly in a well foreseen low point, with no permanent athletic director? Who are we going to lure here after that type of move? We'd be stuck promoting Pomeday. Let Pitino have his due course and if he doesn't right the ship then can him, but don't force him out and banish us to another 3 years of rebuilding through transfers, marginal spring recruits after a firing, and implementing a new culture. Oh and watching the media scrutinize every minor element of the process. If you do want him gone effectively immediately, then buckle up, the current bumps won't even compare.




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+1
 

Ewert86PC said:
I would say this is an spectacularly impotent season. It is an infamously bad season that will be talked about in shame lore for generations. If you are a season ticket holder and you chose to remain quiet about how bad this is, then you are implicitly supporting this mediocrity. You are letting the school administration roam free with their their negligence to athletics.

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Sorry, I think that is ridiculous. You're essentially saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your thinking (that Pitino sucks and will never succeed at MN) accepts mediocrity. What about someone who is frustrated with this season but also wants to "remain quiet" for one more year because they feel there is a chance this could be turned around and there is a chance to have a bright future?

That's fine if you disagree with that but doesn't mean those people are the problem either.
 

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