Pitino on last game against Northwestern: I did a horrible job of preparing the guys

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bga1 said:
This game is what happens when a real young team has a real bad night. That's what happened- I lived through 86-87 as a fan- I've seen this before under Clem, only that was worse, perhaps much worse. They will win a few at the end of the year and then be pretty good next year. McBrayer who is going to be really good, was really bad. Murphy got his usual quick fouls. Konate got his fumble hands back. Mason was off and Dorsey who played hard got stuffed repeatedly. King did nothing. Morris did nothing. Buggs did nothing. So 14 big points from our leaders, no help there for the struggling youngsters.

Right now none of these guys have any confidence that the ball is going to go in when they shoot it. McBrayer and Dorsey don't even consider open threes now. That's a big deal- it affects everything and it takes the energy out of players. Right now the team is shooting 41% fg% and 32% 3pt % for the year and it is far worse in the BT I'm sure. Shooting is a fundamental issue here.
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**Hug**
I'm with ya brother.

This board likes to slam the roster, and then slam the coach for being unable to get the roster (which they already slammed him for) to not perform like a contender.

They go hand in hand, it's why "good coaches" seem to often have talented teams. Rarely is there a case where a good coach wins with a ****ty team, I think Bill Billichek is the only coach in modern times where people have said he'll beat you with his guys or your guys, doesn't matter.
 

GophersInIowa said:
What's your definition of blown out? 10+?

I'll take that bet. Of the 11 conference games, they've finished within 9 points 7 times.
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Looking ahead.

Home against Michigan. 10-
At Iowa. NOT EVEN CLOSE. 10+
Home against Maryland. Again, NOT EVEN CLOSE. 10+
Home against Rutgers. Depending on which Gopher team shows up. Even
At Illinois. 10+
Home against Wisky. Unfortunately they've turned their season around (for the most part). Rivalry game...10-
At Rutgers. 10+
 

Gopher2017 said:
Agreed. I really, REALLY want a successful program and I don't care who is the coach as long as the program is successful and something to be proud of.
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I don't think anyone here cares about who the coach is. There are people here that are sick of recycling coaches every few years and think that this particular season is not a good indicator of any coach given the circumstances. The circumstances are what many of us dissagree on, and to me, the fact that there is this much confusion about how big the mistakes are or are not give reason for Pitino to get next year or more to prove his worth. There is evidence both positive and negative that he can('t) coach and recruit.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
I don't think anyone here cares about who the coach is. There are people here that are sick of recycling coaches every year and think that this particular season is not a good indicator of any coach given the circumstances. The circumstances are what many of us dissagree on, and to me, the fact that there is this much confusion about how big the mistakes are or are not give reason for Pitino to get next year or more to prove his worth. There is evidence both positive and negative that he can('t) coach and recruit.
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Understandable.
 

underground629 said:
I think most logical fans understand how bright the future looks with our returning young talent and influx of talent and even experience next year. Plus we only lose Buggs to graduation next year. You aren't encouraged enough by that and our 5 games before tonight?

If Pitino is around to coach Mason's senior year, I'm happy to bet we will make the tournament that year and the following year.
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I'm fine with giving him next year, if a reasonable expectation is laid out by the AD for next year. My concern is we're giving him one more year with the idea that anything short of an NCAA bid will get him fired. He's a dead coach walking in that case. That's no good for anyone. It's Dan Monson 2007 all over again.
 


howeda7 said:
I'm fine with giving him next year, if a reasonable expectation is laid out by the AD for next year. My concern is we're giving him one more year with the idea that anything short of an NCAA bid will get him fired. He's a dead coach walking in that case. That's no good for anyone. It's Dan Monson 2007 all over again.
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Putting any static measure as the decision point on next year would be stupid in my opinion. But I'm the guy that thinks he deserves not only next year but the year after with almost no exception other than multiple 20 point loses like he had this year, next year.
 

Gopher2017 said:
Looking ahead.

Home against Michigan. 10-
At Iowa. NOT EVEN CLOSE. 10+
Home against Maryland. Again, NOT EVEN CLOSE. 10+
Home against Rutgers. Depending on which Gopher team shows up. Even
At Illinois. 10+
Home against Wisky. Unfortunately they've turned their season around (for the most part). Rivalry game...10-
At Rutgers. 10+
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THIS....at Rutgers would be the only game i would worry about with that bet.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
Putting any static measure as the decision point on next year would be stupid in my opinion. But I'm the guy that thinks he deserves not only next year but the year after with almost no exception other than multiple 20 point loses like he had this year, next year.
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If they have another mediocre non-conference performance and start slow in the B10 next year....Whoever the new AD is in place, has no choice but to fire him....The buyout means nothing if fan interest (tv/attendance) is gone and the media is hammering the program....I am a firm believer if they had an AD in place already he would not survive after this year...This is not a top 5, can't miss recruiting class he is bringing in....Even if it was i am not convinced he has the coaching skills to motivate/teach them to play together and improve.
 

1997vacatedfinalfour said:
If they have another mediocre non-conference performance and start slow in the B10 next year....Whoever the new AD is in place, has no choice but to fire him....The buyout means nothing if fan interest (tv/attendance) is gone and the media is hammering the program....I am a firm believer if they had an AD in place already he would not survive after this year...This is not a top 5, can't miss recruiting class he is bringing in....Even if it was i am not convinced he has the coaching skills to motivate/teach them to play together and improve.
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Firing him would be a foolish move.

You and others are stuck on the idea that this is his third year and the team should be ascending. In some cases that would be fair. Not in this one. Right now, normal roster balance would still have us with 6 to 7 players left over from the previous coach. We have one- Buggs.
Pitino was handed a team that essentially hadn't recruited for two years. He did a very good job his first year getting a combo of the Tubby guys - and some transfers to play together and win the NIT. Last year- not so good. The jury is out on his coaching. But we do know that he has now recruited two solid classes in a row - both borderline top 25 range classes. That's the building block for success.

After the Indiana game- almost everyone agreed that the team is improving and has potential. Now some of the same people want him fired after a bad game. Oh well.
 



1997vacatedfinalfour said:
THIS....at Rutgers would be the only game i would worry about with that bet.
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They play Rutgers twice, once at home and once on the road. You also do realize that this team just lost by 4 and 6 points to Indiana and Purdue? You also realize that we lost to Michigan on the road by 5 recently?

Every game is different, I get that. But to act like this team has been blown out in every game to this point is ridiculous.

I'll make sure to bookmark this page so we can revisit it in a few weeks.
 

howeda7 said:
I'm fine with giving him next year, if a reasonable expectation is laid out by the AD for next year. My concern is we're giving him one more year with the idea that anything short of an NCAA bid will get him fired. He's a dead coach walking in that case. That's no good for anyone. It's Dan Monson 2007 all over again.
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No AD worth his salt would do that in this case. Tubby got fired, not because of NCAA appearances, but because there was no future and anybody could see it, the way he was recruiting. Pitino's situation is the exact opposite. There is a future in the players being recruited and it's actually quite bright- even though he has done zero as far as getting to NCAA's.
 

bga1 said:
Firing him would be a foolish move.

You and others are stuck on the idea that this is his third year and the team should be ascending. In some cases that would be fair. Not in this one. Right now, normal roster balance would still have us with 6 to 7 players left over from the previous coach. We have one- Buggs.
Pitino was handed a team that essentially hadn't recruited for two years. He did a very good job his first year getting a combo of the Tubby guys - and some transfers to play together and win the NIT. Last year- not so good. The jury is out on his coaching. But we do know that he has now recruited two solid classes in a row - both borderline top 25 range classes. That's the building block for success.

After the Indiana game- almost everyone agreed that the team is improving and has potential. Now some of the same people want him fired after a bad game. Oh well.
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When daddy bolts for UNLV after NCAA sanctions (already getting ugly in Louisville with the news today) and Richard follows him, this will all be a moot point.
 

bga1 said:
Firing him would be a foolish move.

You and others are stuck on the idea that this is his third year and the team should be ascending. In some cases that would be fair. Not in this one. Right now, normal roster balance would still have us with 6 to 7 players left over from the previous coach. We have one- Buggs.
Pitino was handed a team that essentially hadn't recruited for two years. He did a very good job his first year getting a combo of the Tubby guys - and some transfers to play together and win the NIT. Last year- not so good. The jury is out on his coaching. But we do know that he has now recruited two solid classes in a row - both borderline top 25 range classes. That's the building block for success.

After the Indiana game- almost everyone agreed that the team is improving and has potential. Now some of the same people want him fired after a bad game. Oh well.
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You bring up some valid statements. I am no longer in the group that want him gone today and I haven't been in a couple of weeks, but I'm also not the least bit excited about some big turnaround next season. Will we have a few more wins? Probably/maybe, but it's nothing that excites me. If Pitino was a proven coach and simply had a down year or two like Coach K, then I'd be able to see some bright and sunny future, but he's not...yet, anyway. I hope he proves me wrong but there is absolutely nothing this season that excites me for next season. Nothing. I hope he proves me wrong.
 



GophersInIowa said:
They play Rutgers twice, once at home and once on the road. You also do realize that this team just lost by 4 and 6 points to Indiana and Purdue? You also realize that we lost to Michigan on the road by 5 recently?

Every game is different, I get that. But to act like this team has been blown out in every game to this point is ridiculous.

I'll make sure to bookmark this page so we can revisit it in a few weeks.
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Serious question here - how are ugly blowout losses not an indication of coaching and player abilities but a few close losses are?
 

bga1 said:
No AD worth his salt would do that in this case. Tubby got fired, not because of NCAA appearances, but because there was no future and anybody could see it, the way he was recruiting. Pitino's situation is the exact opposite. There is a future in the players being recruited and it's actually quite bright- even though he has done zero as far as getting to NCAA's.
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The bolded is your opinion, BGA, not fact, and I say that as someone who didn't think it was a grave injustice when Megatongue let the previous coach (evidently we're not allowed to speak his name) go. Was OK with it, but at the time I didn't think or know the program was doomed forever (that 9-9, 8-10 B1G la-la land) simply because previous coach had a bad last recruiting class (and he did). I have news, everyone (Minnesota included) has bad recruiting classes, unless your name is Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, or North Carolina.
 

SelectionSunday said:
The bolded is your opinion, BGA, not fact, and I say that as someone who didn't think it was a grave injustice when Megatongue let the previous coach (evidently we're not allowed to speak his name) go. Was OK with it, but at the time I didn't think or know the program was doomed forever (that 9-9, 8-10 B1G la-la land) simply because previous coach had a bad last recruiting class (and he did). I have news, everyone (Minnesota included) has bad recruiting classes, unless your name is Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, or North Carolina.
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He had 2 bad recruiting classes (not just one) and seemed to have an attitude that we should be happy with it at $2 million a year. He got 6 years and never got the team above .500 in the Big Ten- a feat even Monson accomplished.

Here's Tubby's last 4 recruited classes:

'10 - Ahanmisi, Aremlin, Osieniks, Walker, Eliasson, Austin Hollins
'11 - Coleman, Andre Hollins, Welch, Ingram
'12 - Buggs, Ellenson
'13 - Foster and Ellis

4 years of recruits that provided 3 solid Big Ten players and a batch of bench players. Those last two classes were beauties.
 

Coach said that about Tony Bennett at UVA. With what has happened here PITINO gets next year but every special coach has taken his team to the tourney by year 3. I REALLY LIKE 3 of this years players and the next class even though it is not a top 20 class to my eyes.
 

bga1 said:
He had 2 bad recruiting classes (not just one) and seemed to have an attitude that we should be happy with it at $2 million a year. He got 6 years and never got the team above .500 in the Big Ten- a feat even Monson accomplished.

Here's Tubby's last 4 recruited classes:

'10 - Ahanmisi, Aremlin, Osieniks, Walker, Eliasson, Austin Hollins
'11 - Coleman, Andre Hollins, Welch, Ingram
'12 - Buggs, Ellenson
'13 - Foster and Ellis

4 years of recruits that provided 3 solid Big Ten players and a batch of bench players. Those last two classes were beauties.
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And those mistakes take time to show themselves. Add in questionable decisions as well as a couple poor recruits by Pitino and you have.


This.

Give him some time.
 

Not in topic with the Tubby arguments here but one thing I found interesting is Pitino gave the game plan to Pomeday.

A few general comments/thoughts on that-

1) I wonder if Pitino does this every game with various assistants? If so, I love it. Great way to delegate and empower your assistants as well as free himself up for to run practice and recruit. It also sets up your assistants with some great resume stuff for becoming head coaches. Especially since Pitino takes the blame regardless when they lose and gives the assistants the credit when they win (even though it feels like it has been awhile to remember that)

2) I assume he did this before at least with all the credit he gave to Dan McHale for beating MSU. I also remember him screaming at Ben Johnson after a loss (Nebraska last year maybe?) possibly that was a game he was in charge of and didn't do so hot.

3) chances Nate gets another game and/or is even back next year after this debacle? I'd assume some staff changes occur next year regardless though. Can't go 0-18 (potentially) and make zero changes.
 

bga1 said:
He had 2 bad recruiting classes (not just one) and seemed to have an attitude that we should be happy with it at $2 million a year. He got 6 years and never got the team above .500 in the Big Ten- a feat even Monson accomplished.

Here's Tubby's last 4 recruited classes:

'10 - Ahanmisi, Aremlin, Osieniks, Walker, Eliasson, Austin Hollins
'11 - Coleman, Andre Hollins, Welch, Ingram
'12 - Buggs, Ellenson
'13 - Foster and Ellis

4 years of recruits that provided 3 solid Big Ten players and a batch of bench players. Those last two classes were beauties.
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Yikes.....when you see it in print like that and then throw in the first full year class of Pitino (Mason/Martin/Konate/Diedhiou). Add King and Morris to the first class ( I like better than others, but clearly not all conference).....it's pretty obvious why we are in the position we are in.

If your best class by far is your freshman class and your second best class is still in high school, that's an ominous sign for the current team but a good sign for the future.
 

golfing18now said:
Yikes.....when you see it in print like that and then throw in the first full year class of Pitino (Mason/Martin/Konate/Diedhiou). Add King and Morris to the first class ( I like better than others, but clearly not all conference).....it's pretty obvious why we are in the position we are in.

If your best class by far is your freshman class and your second best class is still in high school, that's an ominous sign for the current team but a good sign for the future.
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The only way Pitino could have avoided this mess was to have hit a home run with his first full class, a class he had one summer to recruit - which he obviously had a couple of misses on. The idea that we should be good by his third year- just because it is his third year, fail in terms of understanding whole situation.
 

bga1 said:
The only way Pitino could have avoided this mess was to have hit a home run with his first full class, a class he had one summer to recruit - which he obviously had a couple of misses on. The idea that we should be good by his third year- just because it is his third year, fail in terms of understanding whole situation.
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Agreed - last night felt like a trap game (if there is such a thing given the complexion of this season). I feel like we were bound for a let down after playing probably about as good as this team can expect to play for a 5 game stretch, and NU was coming off the opposite stretch. Everything that could have gone right for NU did, and vice versa. I'm not overlooking some of our horrendous lapses on D, but they seemed to make every momentum reclaiming shot they needed. A win's gonna come, last night just wasn't meant to be.

This is all to highlight the fact that despite our record, this team has preformed at a reasonable level this season given the recruiting history described above.
 

Year 3: Minnesota, Northwestern

There's a simple comparison to gauge the progression of the Gopher program. There are two B1G programs with coaches serving their 3rd years in the conference. One (Minnesota) has appeared in 12 NCAA tournaments in its history (8 if you believe in asterisks), one as recently as 3 years ago. The other (Northwestern) has never appeared in the NCAA tourney.

I would pose the question, who has the tougher gig turning around their program (if indeed that's what they're doing, historically speaking both their predecessors weren't exactly failures relative to their schools' basketball histories), Chris Collins or Richard Pitino?

Pitino
Year 1: 25-13, 9-11 vs. B1G competition, NIT champs
Year 2: 18-15, 7-13
Year 3: 6-17, 0-11

Totals: 49-45, 16-35

Collins
Year 1: 14-19, 7-13 vs. B1G competition
Year 2: 15-17, 6-13
Year 3: 16-8, 4-7

Totals: 45-44, 17-33

The numbers are pretty similar, but progression-wise (results on the court) it seems clear which program is trending in a more positive manner. Not to mention it's 4-1 Collins in head-to-head matchups.

That's what the numbers say anyways. As always with numbers/statistics, interpret as you like.
 

SelectionSunday said:
There's a simple comparison to gauge the progression of the Gopher program. There are two B1G programs with coaches serving their 3rd years in the conference. One (Minnesota) has appeared in 12 NCAA tournaments in its history (8 if you believe in asterisks), one as recently as 3 years ago. The other (Northwestern) has never appeared in the NCAA tourney.

I would pose the question, who has the tougher gig turning around their program (if indeed that's what they're doing, historically speaking both their predecessors weren't exactly failures relative to their schools' basketball histories), Chris Collins or Richard Pitino?

Pitino
Year 1: 25-13, 9-11 vs. B1G competition, NIT champs
Year 2: 18-15, 7-13
Year 3: 6-17, 0-11

Totals: 49-45, 16-35

Collins
Year 1: 14-19, 7-13 vs. B1G competition
Year 2: 15-17, 6-13
Year 3: 16-8, 4-7

Totals: 45-44, 17-33

The numbers are pretty similar, but progression-wise (results on the court) it seems clear which program is trending in a more positive manner. Not to mention it's 4-1 Collins in head-to-head matchups.

That's what the numbers say anyways. As always with numbers/statistics, interpret as you like.
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Sounds good. So you're calling to fire Pitino and get someone new or just commenting on how bad our program is?
 

Tim1406 said:
Sounds good. So you're calling to fire Pitino and get someone new or just commenting on how bad our program is?
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Just looking at what the numbers say in comparison to a program within our conference that most would argue have more hurdles to win than the U of M. But to answer your question, the latter. No problem with seeing what Year 4 brings.
 

SelectionSunday said:
The latter.
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Sounds good I never know these days. And for good reason, we aren't playing well. Maybe once the university figures out how to hire an athletic director the athletic director can figure out how to hire a coach like Collins(if our team doesn't step it's game up next year). Also Collins is taking the historical route towards being a good coach.
 

I think looking at two teams records in a three year trend is about as reckless as you can get if you are trying to make any sort of an informed opinion on the situation. I'd be similar to me showing you 3 team profiles and removing opponent rpi and conference information and asking you to pick the at large bids.
 

bga1 said:
The only way Pitino could have avoided this mess was to have hit a home run with his first full class, a class he had one summer to recruit - which he obviously had a couple of misses on. The idea that we should be good by his third year- just because it is his third year, fail in terms of understanding whole situation.
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Bingo.
 

SelectionSunday said:
There's a simple comparison to gauge the progression of the Gopher program. There are two B1G programs with coaches serving their 3rd years in the conference. One (Minnesota) has appeared in 12 NCAA tournaments in its history (8 if you believe in asterisks), one as recently as 3 years ago. The other (Northwestern) has never appeared in the NCAA tourney.

I would pose the question, who has the tougher gig turning around their program (if indeed that's what they're doing, historically speaking both their predecessors weren't exactly failures relative to their schools' basketball histories), Chris Collins or Richard Pitino?

Pitino
Year 1: 25-13, 9-11 vs. B1G competition, NIT champs
Year 2: 18-15, 7-13
Year 3: 6-17, 0-11

Totals: 49-45, 16-35

Collins
Year 1: 14-19, 7-13 vs. B1G competition
Year 2: 15-17, 6-13
Year 3: 16-8, 4-7

Totals: 45-44, 17-33

The numbers are pretty similar, but progression-wise (results on the court) it seems clear which program is trending in a more positive manner. Not to mention it's 4-1 Collins in head-to-head matchups.

That's what the numbers say anyways. As always with numbers/statistics, interpret as you like.
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An interesting question and an interesting comparison.

Objectively, Collins is probably ahead of Pitino through year three, albeit slightly because the non-conference records are so hard to compare from one team to the next....so we should probably focus on the conference record. Collins has a slight lead that will likely grow by the end of this year.

In my opinion, the roster make-up is better at Northwestern today. The junior and senior classes are significantly better at Northwestern than they are at Minnesota. That is at least partially on the prior coaches and of course roster management of the current coaches. Collins wins there.

Collins also had a much better year one recruiting when you consider Law/McIntosh/Lindsey/Skelley against Mason/Martin/Konate/Diedhiou. Frankly, it's not even very close.

But then the last two recruiting cycles I prefer the classes that the Gophers signed. So I would fully expect the win/loss gap to close moving forward if our guy can coach because we lose less and gain more over the next couple years.

If you look solely at record (which is the bottom line, I get it) it is getting harder every day to defend Pitino. But I'm still holding out hope not based on the negative trend line exhibited by the wins and losses as you pointed out, but on the positive trend line exhibited by the recruiting improvements over the last three years.

Expectations will rise (as they should) and results will need to follow.
 

bga1 said:
No AD worth his salt would do that in this case. Tubby got fired, not because of NCAA appearances, but because there was no future and anybody could see it, the way he was recruiting. Pitino's situation is the exact opposite. There is a future in the players being recruited and it's actually quite bright- even though he has done zero as far as getting to NCAA's.
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The new AD can try and be big picture. But after this season Pitino will be ~50-53 with a B1G record of 17-43. Realistically, next year will be a repeat of least year, 18-15, 7-13. That will make him 68-68 with a B1G record of 24-56 four years in. It's a safe bet attendance will be in the toilet and there will be howls coming from every direction. I have a hard time believing a new AD or Beth for that matter will sign on for a 5th year unless next year has at least on the bubble. Maybe that can happen. It doesn't seem likely, IMO.
 

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