Zebrowski looks like a finalist for the HC job at UW-Eau Claire

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WHB Brewer said:
Are you implying that no coach should take a job in D3 below the "elite" schools? Ever hear of Glen Carruso? Started at mighty Macalester. Not exactly a D3 juggernaut. Brought them to respectability before moving to St.Thomas. Goes to show that any coaching job can be a stepping stone, no matter the "lack of resources" that you are referring.
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No. I'm just saying for a guy who was QB coach at a big ten school and had some success going down to be a head coach at 99% of DIII programs is step down professionally even if he is hired as a head coach.

I've heard of Glen Carruso. He's done a good job at Mac and now St. Thomas, but let's see if he wishes to move up and where he goes. The gap between DIII and DI is HUGE. I don't think many of you get that. How many coaches have won successfully in DIII and then won at DI? Very, very few. Plus the trajectory is to move up in divisions as Coach Kill did. It's not to take a step down under normal circumstances. And he would have been taking a huge step down. SJU and St. Thomas are not the norm in DIII FB. I think some of you have an over-inflated view of DIII FB.

Any kid who played in high school can play DIII FB if you got the tuition dollars. I mean any kid. You can easily play DIII FB even if you road the bench in HS since so many schools are so desperate for tuition dollars.

Seriously so many DIII programs like SJU, St. Thomas, Hamline just treat DIII FB as a means to get warm bodies in classrooms paying tuition. St. Thomas and SJU have done well due to resources, coaching and just plain luck in having the coaches they have had. DIII FB is a graveyard for 99 percent of the coaches and players.
 

Ralph_Wiggum said:
No. I'm just saying for a guy who was QB coach at a big ten school and had some success going down to be a head coach at 99% of DIII programs is step down professionally even if he is hired as a head coach.
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Now I know you are crazy if you call what he did here the last few years with our QBs "success"....
 

I think the bottom line is this says that the QB coach at MN wasn't at the level necessary for the Gophers. Obviously not very well respected based on still being unemployed. Same goes for Limegrover. Just reinforces and validates Claeys' decision.


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Ralph_Wiggum said:
No. I'm just saying for a guy who was QB coach at a big ten school and had some success going down to be a head coach at 99% of DIII programs is step down professionally even if he is hired as a head coach. I've heard of Glen Carruso. He's done a good job at Mac and now St. Thomas, but let's see if he wishes to move up and where he goes. The gap between DIII and DI is HUGE. I don't think many of you get that. How many coaches have won successfully in DIII and then won at DI? Very, very few. Plus the trajectory is to move up in divisions as Coach Kill did. It's not to take a step down under normal circumstances. And he would have been taking a huge step down. SJU and St. Thomas are not the norm in DIII FB. I think some of you have an over-inflated view of DIII FB. Any kid who played in high school can play DIII FB if you got the tuition dollars. I mean any kid. You can easily play DIII FB even if you road the bench in HS since so many schools are so desperate for tuition dollars. Seriously so many DIII programs like SJU, St. Thomas, Hamline just treat DIII FB as a means to get warm bodies in classrooms paying tuition. St. Thomas and SJU have done well due to resources, coaching and just plain luck in having the coaches they have had. DIII FB is a graveyard for 99 percent of the coaches and players.
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Division III head coaching positions can provide a VERY nice life style of the folks holding those jobs. The stress, wear and tear that is becoming SO evident for Division I Football Coaches is certainly not necessarily a great family man's road to success. Some things are worth a hell of a lot more than being in a pressure cooker situation. It works beautifully for some folks...but being a Division III coach, doing a little teaching and having less stress and less fame...and more time with your family can be pretty damn appealing to some folks too. There are a LOT of ways to be a REAL success in life: it just all depends on what the individual's definition of success is and what the individual really VALUES in life. I highly respect folks who make Division III coaching their career. It can provide a pretty FINE life style. It's not for me to say, though. To each his/her own. THOUGHT FOR THE DAY: 2016 is the YEAR of the WOMAN. Hire Beth!
 

bottlebass said:
Now I know you are crazy if you call what he did here the last few years with our QBs "success"....
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i have been reminded repeatedly on GH that the players we have at the QB position are Heisman candidates who have been held back by play calling. when Kill burned the redshirt it was a solid pushback on Z and Lime. Kill and Claeys saw it clearly - tho i love how the goofs think they know better than Kill and Claeys.
 


imthewalrus said:
Division III head coaching positions can provide a VERY nice life style of the folks holding those jobs. The stress, wear and tear that is becoming SO evident for Division I Football Coaches is certainly not necessarily a great family man's road to success. Some things are worth a hell of a lot more than being in a pressure cooker situation. It works beautifully for some folks...but being a Division III coach, doing a little teaching and having less stress and less fame...and more time with your family can be pretty damn appealing to some folks too. There are a LOT of ways to be a REAL success in life: it just all depends on what the individual's definition of success is and what the individual really VALUES in life. I highly respect folks who make Division III coaching their career. It can provide a pretty FINE life style. It's not for me to say, though. To each his/her own. THOUGHT FOR THE DAY: 2016 is the YEAR of the WOMAN. Hire Beth!
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You under-estimate the stress of coaching in DIII. DIII coaches have to recruit and yes there are no athletic scholarships but the dirty little secret of DIII is how many academic scholarships go to athletes. Coaches have to recruit, they have to devote as much time to film and preparation as DI coaches because they pressure to win is there and if a DIII coach won't put in the extra time there are plenty of other DIII coaches who will. Plus you have to manage often a 100 man or up to 150 man program with fewer resources and they get fired also if the program isn't making progress and at the DIII level the boosters can have more power and influence since there is NO revenue from ticket sales, tv, and radio, and merchandise. Coaches at that level have fewer resources, less facilities, don't have nutritionists on staff and strength coaches and all the other extras of DI. And you get the worse athletes and AND you are told that you must start with 120 men on roster since they are paying tuition and since so many quit since they know that won't play since only about 40 some kids actually see action on the field you are constantly under pressure to get 125 kids to suit up every fall to pay tuition at many private schools.

WIAC schools are getting decimated by budget cuts. You do realize that WIAC schools have cut their athletic budgets due to politics in Wisconsin. DIII coaches have AD and presidents and alumni and yes even parents that give them hell. For all the work they put in they are paid less in proportion to DI coaches even with the "less stress".
 

Ralph_Wiggum said:
You under-estimate the stress of coaching in DIII. DIII coaches have to recruit and yes there are no athletic scholarships but the dirty little secret of DIII is how many academic scholarships go to athletes. Coaches have to recruit, they have to devote as much time to film and preparation as DI coaches because they pressure to win is there and if a DIII coach won't put in the extra time there are plenty of other DIII coaches who will. Plus you have to manage often a 100 man or up to 150 man program with fewer resources and they get fired also if the program isn't making progress and at the DIII level the boosters can have more power and influence since there is NO revenue from ticket sales, tv, and radio, and merchandise. Coaches at that level have fewer resources, less facilities, don't have nutritionists on staff and strength coaches and all the other extras of DI. And you get the worse athletes and AND you are told that you must start with 120 men on roster since they are paying tuition and since so many quit since they know that won't play since only about 40 some kids actually see action on the field you are constantly under pressure to get 125 kids to suit up every fall to pay tuition at many private schools.

WIAC schools are getting decimated by budget cuts. You do realize that WIAC schools have cut their athletic budgets due to politics in Wisconsin. DIII coaches have AD and presidents and alumni and yes even parents that give them hell. For all the work they put in they are paid less in proportion to DI coaches even with the "less stress".
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Life is tough all over, I guess. Sounds just like any other job: pay your way by producing, selling, bringing in revenue, pleasing the public. Hello there ralph. Wisconsin is a BAD place to do anything. EVERY college should CUT money for sports and make the damn coaches pay their way. That's the way it is all over. Anybody who isn't good at coaching and can't pay the bills needs to find a new way to get paid. That is life in the city...life in the country and every where in between. What do you think happens to the small business owner...the farmer...the otr truck driver...the restaurant owner...

I know a few Division III Coaches who have been in their jobs, doing pretty well and they have been there for a long time. It's not a job that will make you rich...not everybody who tries it can do it...not everybody has the dedication, the patience, the love of what he/she is doing to be good at it and keep doing it. But SOME do. And some have fantastic lives. Just as some farmers, small business owners, waitresses, barbers,construction workers and bankers do. People have to find their niche. AND: then they have to work their tails off. They have to sell...produce...keep students enrolled and paying tuition and punching the clock day after day...year after year. Some people absolutely LOVE being Division III Coaches. Tell those DIII Coaches over in Wisconsin that the state government is screwing over to get the hell out of wisconson. It's a pit. And ralph: a hell of a lot of DIII Coaches handle the gig...love the gig and stay in the gig...even in the wiac, I am sure. If they dont' think they are getting a fair shake: they should go where they will be appreciated and DO something to make themselves more valuable and necessary.
 

A fair number of the Div III athletes in the MIAC are some pretty fine students who go on to medical school, dental school, law school, education and many of skilled and valued "professions..." That's right: a LOT of those kids are kids who get academic scholarships because the QUALIFY for academic scholarships because of their high school course work, their ACT & SAT Scores. etc. At many of the private colleges, the FAFSA helps indicate if a student is financially qualified for grants and scholarships. They have guidelines and rules determining what percentage of a family income needs to be provided by the student's family to pay tuition, room& board and educational expenses. It depends on how many dependents each family has, etc. I'm only familiar with the MIAC. I don't know how they do things over in wiscy. Most of those WIAC schools are state sponsored Wisconsin system schools aren't they? UWLaCrosse...UWEauClair...Stevens Point...Whitewater...etc. I don't know anything about those schools. But, in the MIAC, there are a LOT of really serious academic Students playing sports at those private colleges. St. Olaf, Gustavus, Carleton, St, Thomas, St.Johns, Concordia, Bethel, St. Mary's, St. Kates, Augsburg, Hamline or Mac. They sure will not penalize a student who has a great high school record, high ACT, SAT, National Merit scores and who demonstrate some financial assistance needs just because they play a sport that school sponsors.
 

Many of the MIAC FB teams have a strength coach. Merchandise? You can buy a bunch of gear and it is not cheap. Revenue? I think there is some from ticket sales but not a lot. UST vs AUG had about 3,000 paid attendees @ $8 each that is $24,000. Not bad but certainly not paying many bills. SJU with 15,000 at Clemens @ $8 is $120,000. Real money. The dome at Augsburg is very profitable for the school during the winter months. I don't know the numbers but I know it is a good source of revenue. Ralph why don't you ask Jay Johnson his opinion of D3 FB, he is a coach that started at Augsburg as OC and now he has arrived as our Gopher, Big Ten Offensive coordinator. Its not as bad as you say, at least in the MIAC. Like imthewalrus, I have no idea of how the WIAC operates. Go see a good MIAC game Ralph, you will be surprised at the level of competition. Most games featuring competitive teams will have at least one or two D2 transfers and the top level games might have one or two D1 transfers. Nobody is getting rich but I think the coaches in the league have a good gig.
 



The real question for Ralph is if Kiffin would have been successful at UWEC?
 

imthewalrus said:
A fair number of the Div III athletes in the MIAC are some pretty fine students who go on to medical school, dental school, law school, education and many of skilled and valued "professions..." That's right: a LOT of those kids are kids who get academic scholarships because the QUALIFY for academic scholarships because of their high school course work, their ACT & SAT Scores. etc. At many of the private colleges, the FAFSA helps indicate if a student is financially qualified for grants and scholarships. They have guidelines and rules determining what percentage of a family income needs to be provided by the student's family to pay tuition, room& board and educational expenses. It depends on how many dependents each family has, etc. I'm only familiar with the MIAC. I don't know how they do things over in wiscy. Most of those WIAC schools are state sponsored Wisconsin system schools aren't they? UWLaCrosse...UWEauClair...Stevens Point...Whitewater...etc. I don't know anything about those schools. But, in the MIAC, there are a LOT of really serious academic Students playing sports at those private colleges. St. Olaf, Gustavus, Carleton, St, Thomas, St.Johns, Concordia, Bethel, St. Mary's, St. Kates, Augsburg, Hamline or Mac. They sure will not penalize a student who has a great high school record, high ACT, SAT, National Merit scores and who demonstrate some financial assistance needs just because they play a sport that school sponsors.
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MIAC schools schools pretty give everyone who attends a discount or scholarship. You see sticker prices of $30,000 at MIAC schools, but students athletes or not don't pay the sticker price. Everyone gets a discount at those schools. They also have a plethora of scholarships that have marginal academic requirements. Say you want to major in history or your uncle went to Hamline or St. Thomas, well they just happen to have scholarships for history majors or business majors just because you are admitted. They just cannot say they are athletic scholarships and private schools can charge anyone any price they want for tuition. Everyone at a MIAC schools gets some sort of discount or scholarship and athletes especially get academic or some other type of scholarship. You see St. John's has to have 120 kids on the football team paying tuition even if it's discounted in some way they need bodies and if here are 75 kids who will never see any meaningful action on the field it don't matter as long as they paying some form of tuition.

The WIAC as a state system basically tries to get student-athletes based on the fact that they will often pay less or only pay in-state tuition to follow their dreams of playing football or softball. WIAC sports are basically state-sponsored pay for play for those kids who still want to play competitive sports and or have delusions of making the NHL, NFL, or NBA.
 

oldauggie said:
Many of the MIAC FB teams have a strength coach. Merchandise? You can buy a bunch of gear and it is not cheap. Revenue? I think there is some from ticket sales but not a lot. UST vs AUG had about 3,000 paid attendees @ $8 each that is $24,000. Not bad but certainly not paying many bills. SJU with 15,000 at Clemens @ $8 is $120,000. Real money. The dome at Augsburg is very profitable for the school during the winter months. I don't know the numbers but I know it is a good source of revenue. Ralph why don't you ask Jay Johnson his opinion of D3 FB, he is a coach that started at Augsburg as OC and now he has arrived as our Gopher, Big Ten Offensive coordinator. Its not as bad as you say, at least in the MIAC. Like imthewalrus, I have no idea of how the WIAC operates. Go see a good MIAC game Ralph, you will be surprised at the level of competition. Most games featuring competitive teams will have at least one or two D2 transfers and the top level games might have one or two D1 transfers. Nobody is getting rich but I think the coaches in the league have a good gig.
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D3 sports are a huge drain on revenue. MIAC schools have to have 120 kids on the FB team and 15 kids on a JV basketball team and 40 kids on a swim team for the tuition dollars. Sports at the D3 level are either a huge money suck like at the WIAC or a recruitment drive for tuition paying bodies. There's no reason to have variety sports at the WIAC level since they drain dollars and it's not a training ground for future olympic or professional athletes.

Now the MIAC has a different model in that D3 sports is about getting warm bodies to pay tuition and fill seats. Now some schools like St. Thomas don't need 120 kids on the FB team nearly as bad as Gustavus does, but they all operate on the same model. Get kids to pay tuition to even if its discounted cause the schools need the revenue. The number 1 source of revenue at St. Thomas or St. Johns athletics is student-athlete tuition dollars. Now later on you hope they become contributing alumni by reminding of all the fun they had playing against Bethel.
 

The whole idea at an MIAC school is that ALL students ARE students. Yes. They pay tuition. They can qualify for scholarships. Just the SAME way that ANY other student enrolled at the school can. Kids who sing in choir...play in orchestra are students who pay tuition and can also receive scholarships based upon need and academic achievement. All activities are included. Some kids in speech & debate can be awarded scholarships based on academics, achievements and financial need. Virtually all of these MIAC Schools work hard to build endowments that sponsor scholarships for art...or music...or Mathmatics...the sciences. I have a daughter who graduated from St. Olaf. You should see the massive number of students involved in the Christmas Concert...that event brings in a LOT of money to the school. The It is most likely a MUCH bigger deal to that college than their Division III Athletic programs...but all programs are honored and are basic to the Liberal Arts Approach of St. Olaf. The same is true at Concordia. The Christmas concert is huge. All kinds of students from all the areas of study participate...probably even some of the athletes. It is true at Gustavus...Augsburg...Carleton, St. Thomas, Bethel, Hamlin, Mac. St. St. Mary's and St. Kates. So many of the students on those campus settings are on scholarships for academics, financial need, and, of course, MERIT and HIGH ACHIEVEMENT and ACCOMPLISHMENT.

I would HARDLY call what the MIAC does with scholarship/athletics/music/the sciences/the arts "warm bodies..." They are students who also participate in activities outside their field of study. In many ways, I very much admire the Division III model provided by the MIAC Schools. You describe it much differently and have your own view of the way it is. But, for a LONG TIME the MIAC schools have graduated a LOT of individuals who went on to graduate studies at places such as the University of Minnesota and other great graduate programs across the nation. Along with the State of Minnesota Division III schools in Minnesota...and, of course the Division II State schools, and also the Jr. Colleges in the state the educational needs of the states citizens are met.

But, I am a big fan of the MIAC Division III model that you appear to have some rather harsh opinions about. You are certainly entitled to your opinion...but I am a big fan of MIAC schools...teams...and even some of those Christmas Musical Productions some of which are really very extraordinary. That's just my opinion though.
 



imthewalrus said:
The whole idea at an MIAC school is that ALL students ARE students. Yes. They pay tuition. They can qualify for scholarships. Just the SAME way that ANY other student enrolled at the school can. Kids who sing in choir...play in orchestra are students who pay tuition and can also receive scholarships based upon need and academic achievement. All activities are included. Some kids in speech & debate can be awarded scholarships based on academics, achievements and financial need. Virtually all of these MIAC Schools work hard to build endowments that sponsor scholarships for art...or music...or Mathmatics...the sciences. I have a daughter who graduated from St. Olaf. You should see the massive number of students involved in the Christmas Concert...that event brings in a LOT of money to the school. The It is most likely a MUCH bigger deal to that college than their Division III Athletic programs...but all programs are honored and are basic to the Liberal Arts Approach of St. Olaf. The same is true at Concordia. The Christmas concert is huge. All kinds of students from all the areas of study participate...probably even some of the athletes. It is true at Gustavus...Augsburg...Carleton, St. Thomas, Bethel, Hamlin, Mac. St. St. Mary's and St. Kates. So many of the students on those campus settings are on scholarships for academics, financial need, and, of course, MERIT and HIGH ACHIEVEMENT and ACCOMPLISHMENT.

I would HARDLY call what the MIAC does with scholarship/athletics/music/the sciences/the arts "warm bodies..." They are students who also participate in activities outside their field of study. In many ways, I very much admire the Division III model provided by the MIAC Schools. You describe it much differently and have your own view of the way it is. But, for a LONG TIME the MIAC schools have graduated a LOT of individuals who went on to graduate studies at places such as the University of Minnesota and other great graduate programs across the nation. Along with the State of Minnesota Division III schools in Minnesota...and, of course the Division II State schools, and also the Jr. Colleges in the state the educational needs of the states citizens are met.

But, I am a big fan of the MIAC Division III model that you appear to have some rather harsh opinions about. You are certainly entitled to your opinion...but I am a big fan of MIAC schools...teams...and even some of those Christmas Musical Productions some of which are really very extraordinary. That's just my opinion though.
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I am not criticizing the academics and artistic achievements at D3 schools. I agree that you can get a great education at MIAC schools and WIAC schools.

My criticism is about how they use athletics and their overall revenue model. Ideally, the way Macalaster treats athletics should be the D3 model. Yeah people at SJU, St. Thomas and other MIAC scoff and laugh at Mac, but that is what D3 sports is supposed to be. You don't have 110 kids playing FB at Mac because they don't use it as a tuition generation activity. I do know that D3 was never supposed to be seen as a way generate revenue by recruiting three Freshman to play first base, telling the backup long snapper at Woodbury High that you have a good chance to further your career at the MIAC, (when you really just want the tuition dollars that come from a kid from Woodbury--less of a discount) and getting on ESPN.

Now if you want to be on ESPN and on WCCO then you should play D1 sports instead of masquerading as D1 in some sports while maintaining the veneer of Student-athletes at the D3 level. Sure SJU and St. Thomas get bigger crowds than some D1 schools for FB and have facilities as good as some MAC and Sunbelt schools and then pound their chests about beating schools that honestly follow the D3 model.

Personally, I am a big ten alumnus and believe the if you want to be big time athletics than you should at least make no bones about it and play at the same level as your divisional peers. Central Michigan and the Gophers start with the same number scholarships and provide a much more level playing field.

My beef with D3 is that 1. they use athletics as a tuition generation scheme and 2. some schools do not clearly follow the D3 model in sports. If you want to be on WCCO and ESPN then you should find and start a different division.
 

How did St Thomas overlook the skills of Mitch Leidner? He would have been at least the 3rd to 4th best QB in the MIAC.
 


As a grad of a D3 school (Augsburg), I have to say that Ralph sounds like he has an axe to grind about D3 schools.

Nobody that I know of is claiming that D3 sports are anywhere close to D2 or D1. There are occasional athletes who fall through the cracks, and wind up at D3 schools - Devan George went from Augsburg to the LA Lakers. I knew a guy at Augsburg who wound up as a kicker in the CFL. And don't forget, Eric Decker was going to go to St. John's until he got a late offer, went to the U, and I think he's doing OK. Again, those are exceptions, but D3 schools play some solid FB. I've covered D3 teams at UW-Platteville, and Central College in IA, and it's a fun brand of FB.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
As a grad of a D3 school (Augsburg), I have to say that Ralph sounds like he has an axe to grind about D3 schools.

Nobody that I know of is claiming that D3 sports are anywhere close to D2 or D1. There are occasional athletes who fall through the cracks, and wind up at D3 schools - Devan George went from Augsburg to the LA Lakers. I knew a guy at Augsburg who wound up as a kicker in the CFL. And don't forget, Eric Decker was going to go to St. John's until he got a late offer, went to the U, and I think he's doing OK. Again, those are exceptions, but D3 schools play some solid FB. I've covered D3 teams at UW-Platteville, and Central College in IA, and it's a fun brand of FB.
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3 guys from my D3 school all went on to start in the NFL for awhile(LB, CB, & WR) ~94-98. It happens.
 

Just DIII guys that come to mind immediately. The needles in the haystacks. These are not just roster guys; they are bonafide pros!
London Fletcher...strong consideration for HOF
Pierre Garcon
Fred Jackson
Cecil Shorts
Steven Hauschka
Jason Trusnik (Vikings...9 year vet)
 

OddStack said:
Just DIII guys that come to mind immediately. The needles in the haystacks. These are not just roster guys; they are bonafide pros!
London Fletcher...strong consideration for HOF
Pierre Garcon
Fred Jackson
Cecil Shorts
Steven Hauschka
Jason Trusnik (Vikings...9 year vet)
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Ralph-
Not one of the guys on this list went to St. Thomas or St. John's.
 

my cousin played QB in D3 now coaches for a Big Ten school. Great kids play at all levels and yes, some of the kids in D3 could play BCS. not sure why this bugs some people.
 

Upper half DIII teams can beat lower DII teams often. (St. John's/Bemidji few years ago comes to mind...Concordia/Moorehead comes to mind....WIAC schools seem to do it every other year or so)

Upper half DII teams can beat lower DIAA teams often.

Upper half DIAA teams can beat lower DI teams less often than other two b/c they chase the money by scheduling upper DI teams, but it isn't rare. (Appalachian St/Michigan; NDSU/Gophers; S. Dakota/Gophers; NDSU/Kansas St.)

These are all of the top of my head!

There's not the disparity that some may think.
 

oldauggie said:
Ralph-
Not one of the guys on this list went to St. Thomas or St. John's.
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Yeah that happens once in awhile, but my thing against some DIII schools, not all, is that some schools play by the spirit of D3 and some like SJU and St. Thomas don't with their quasi-D1 facilities and very liberal use of academic scholarships and their use of have 125 kids on the team to prop up revenue. D3 schools should not be flying across the country to play other D3 schools. Even WIAC schools have done that. The purpose of D3 is not to be a lower-level of D1 football. The purpose is to provide athletic competition as an outlet for students to engage is sporting activities. D3 was meant to be a continuation of high schools sports in which kids participate as part of their overall academic experience. It was never meant to be on ESPN and to travel half-way across the country. I think it's great that kids play D3 sports and club sports as well. In fact it would be best if D3 was split up based on athletic budgets. If a school wants to have quasi D1 facilities and see sports as a way to generate tuition dollars and as an enrollment management strategy and not provide academic scholarships then they should follow the Ivy League model.

The Ivy League does not award athletic scholarships like D3 schools, but they recruit and play and have facilities on level with D1 schools. Now if SJU and St. Thomas either went the Depaul, Boston College, Dayton, Marquette, Notre Dame route they would be playing at a level more suitable for how they fund athletics and how they dole out academic scholarships. I have no problem with them doing well in sports, just do it at the spirit or level of competition that's appropriate.

Finally, I don't get the love for the MIAC here. This is a Minnesota, Big Ten board.
 

Ralph_Wiggum said:
Yeah that happens once in awhile, but my thing against some DIII schools, not all, is that some schools play by the spirit of D3 and some like SJU and St. Thomas don't with their quasi-D1 facilities and very liberal use of academic scholarships and their use of have 125 kids on the team to prop up revenue. D3 schools should not be flying across the country to play other D3 schools. Even WIAC schools have done that. The purpose of D3 is not to be a lower-level of D1 football. The purpose is to provide athletic competition as an outlet for students to engage is sporting activities. D3 was meant to be a continuation of high schools sports in which kids participate as part of their overall academic experience. It was never meant to be on ESPN and to travel half-way across the country. I think it's great that kids play D3 sports and club sports as well. In fact it would be best if D3 was split up based on athletic budgets. If a school wants to have quasi D1 facilities and see sports as a way to generate tuition dollars and as an enrollment management strategy and not provide academic scholarships then they should follow the Ivy League model.

The Ivy League does not award athletic scholarships like D3 schools, but they recruit and play and have facilities on level with D1 schools. Now if SJU and St. Thomas either went the Depaul, Boston College, Dayton, Marquette, Notre Dame route they would be playing at a level more suitable for how they fund athletics and how they dole out academic scholarships. I have no problem with them doing well in sports, just do it at the spirit or level of competition that's appropriate.

Finally, I don't get the love for the MIAC here. This is a Minnesota, Big Ten board.
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Check the Endowment and Enrollment figures for Notre Dame and Boston College compared to St. Thomas and St. Johns and you will see why they don't do it.

St. Thomas probably could go D1 and join the Pioneer football league (non-scholarship D1)....but why would they? They don't have aspirations to be division 1. They like being a good division 3 athletics school. They like being a regional school and don't try to be a national school. St. Thomas only gets a huge crowd once every 2 years (St. Johns)...if they went D1 and Pioneer League that number would drop to 0.

If they went D1 or D2 and weren't successful athletically they would turn into another Concordia St. Paul....not that that is a bad place....much better for a regional school to be the big fish in a small pond than a fish nobody even notices in the D1 or D2 ocean.

People forget that from 2000-2007 St. Thomas was 40-38. What if they went D2 or D1 and their football coach left? If you exclude the last 8 years with Caruso....St. Thomas has 2 outright conference titles since 1957.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
As a grad of a D3 school (Augsburg), I have to say that Ralph sounds like he has an axe to grind about D3 schools.

Nobody that I know of is claiming that D3 sports are anywhere close to D2 or D1. There are occasional athletes who fall through the cracks, and wind up at D3 schools - Devan George went from Augsburg to the LA Lakers. I knew a guy at Augsburg who wound up as a kicker in the CFL. And don't forget, Eric Decker was going to go to St. John's until he got a late offer, went to the U, and I think he's doing OK. Again, those are exceptions, but D3 schools play some solid FB. I've covered D3 teams at UW-Platteville, and Central College in IA, and it's a fun brand of FB.
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Decker committed to the Gophers the late spring / early summer before his senior year. However, I do agree that there is some fine football played at the D2 and D3 levels. A lot of the linemen at the lower levels were as good or better high school players than the D1 commits, but were 6'0" rather than 6'5". The D2 playoff runs by UMD and MSU-Mankato in recent years have been a lot of fun to follow.
 

Some guy said:
Check the Endowment and Enrollment figures for Notre Dame and Boston College compared to St. Thomas and St. Johns and you will see why they don't do it.

St. Thomas probably could go D1 and join the Pioneer football league (non-scholarship D1)....but why would they? They don't have aspirations to be division 1. They like being a good division 3 athletics school. They like being a regional school and don't try to be a national school. St. Thomas only gets a huge crowd once every 2 years (St. Johns)...if they went D1 and Pioneer League that number would drop to 0.

If they went D1 or D2 and weren't successful athletically they would turn into another Concordia St. Paul....not that that is a bad place....much better for a regional school to be the big fish in a small pond than a fish nobody even notices in the D1 or D2 ocean.

People forget that from 2000-2007 St. Thomas was 40-38. What if they went D2 or D1 and their football coach left? If you exclude the last 8 years with Caruso....St. Thomas has 2 outright conference titles since 1957.
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I know what you are saying, but the purpose of D3 is to not be a big fish in a small pond. It was to all be the same size fish in regards to facilities, athletic budgets and how you fund athletics. There was never supposed to be an arms race in D3 football. I really fail to see the honor in being a big fish in a small pond. The athletic budget at St. Thomas and its facilities is not what D3 athletics is supposed to be about. There's no honor in not living up to the spirt of what D3 is supposed to be about. If you want sports glory and then go to a higher division.
 

Ralph_Wiggum said:
I know what you are saying, but the purpose of D3 is to not be a big fish in a small pond. It was to all be the same size fish in regards to facilities, athletic budgets and how you fund athletics. There was never supposed to be an arms race in D3 football. I really fail to see the honor in being a big fish in a small pond. The athletic budget at St. Thomas and its facilities is not what D3 athletics is supposed to be about. There's no honor in not living up to the spirt of what D3 is supposed to be about. If you want sports glory and then go to a higher division.
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Oh please! So 100+ years ago, DI football was a financial arms race to be the best immediately?

By your logic "spirit" of DIII football, DIII players are just happy to be there, winning and losing doesn't matter, and practice should be optional. Hell, just make it a club sport...that way monetary support would be about equal from school to school.
 

Vikings 53 man roster includes
Michigan Tech
Harvard
Hampton
Slippery Rock
Old Dominion
Grand Valley St.
Concordia-St. Paul
Newberry
MN State
Ohio Northern
 

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