Spartans Have More Line Problems: 5-0

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The Spartans have lost 4 linemen at one spot this year and are 5-0, I would like the apologists to weigh in on how the Spartans don't apply to poor line play and the Gophers do because of injury. You obviously buy into the notion that these injuries result in poor line play and the loses. But, it does not explain why the Spartans play like winners through the discontinuity and still find a way to win. Sucking up to mediocrity is a poor excuse for leadership. And right now, the excuse machine is running full tilt around here. A few years ago we fired a guy for fielding a poor team with little chance of victory. What we wanted was stability and growth in performance. Growth stalled last year and this year we are regressing faster than anybody could imagine, with the exception of several sports writers who managed to nail their prediction of a collapse.

What is the prediction for the Spartans considering how many injuries they have along the O-line?
 

1. I'd rather have an injury at one spot than injuries at multiple positions.
2. Can people please stop with calling people who have different views than them an "apologist"? It is so overused.
3. I'm not sure why it is complicated to answer your question, Michigan St. is a better team. They've been a very good program for awhile now. They have a potential first or second round QB, better playmakers, more depth, and better overall talent. Pretty simple.
4. Growth did not stall last year. The program has gotten better every season up to this year. We've seen improvement for several years, but have had a tough start to this season and people are ready to throw in the towel? Everyone is frustrated but let it play out a bit.
 

Dean S said:
The Spartans have lost 4 linemen at one spot this year and are 5-0, I would like the apologists to weigh in on how the Spartans don't apply to poor line play and the Gophers do because of injury. You obviously buy into the notion that these injuries result in poor line play and the loses. But, it does not explain why the Spartans play like winners through the discontinuity and still find a way to win. Sucking up to mediocrity is a poor excuse for leadership. And right now, the excuse machine is running full tilt around here. A few years ago we fired a guy for fielding a poor team with little chance of victory. What we wanted was stability and growth in performance. Growth stalled last year and this year we are regressing faster than anybody could imagine, with the exception of several sports writers who managed to nail their prediction of a collapse.

What is the prediction for the Spartans considering how many injuries they have along the O-line?
Click to expand...
You did see that the Spartans narrowly beat Purdue last weekend? And, they haven't exactly blown out inferior opponents either. They have issues with injuries on the O line and it's going to impact them some. It makes every week a challenge from here on out.
 

GophersInIowa said:
1. I'd rather have an injury at one spot than injuries at multiple positions.
2. Can people please stop with calling people who have different views than them an "apologist"? It is so overused.
3. I'm not sure why it is complicated to answer your question, Michigan St. is a better team. They've been a very good program for awhile now. They have a potential first or second round QB, better playmakers, more depth, and better overall talent. Pretty simple.
4. Growth did not stall last year. The program has gotten better every season up to this year. We've seen improvement for several years, but have had a tough start to this season and people are ready to throw in the towel? Everyone is frustrated but let it play out a bit.
Click to expand...

Agreed. 100%. I'd also add that Kill's recruiting seemed to get better every year. He can finally start building depth after being left nothing by Brew.
 




Dean S said:
The Spartans have lost 4 linemen at one spot this year and are 5-0, I would like the apologists to weigh in on how the Spartans don't apply to poor line play and the Gophers do because of injury. You obviously buy into the notion that these injuries result in poor line play and the loses. But, it does not explain why the Spartans play like winners through the discontinuity and still find a way to win. Sucking up to mediocrity is a poor excuse for leadership. And right now, the excuse machine is running full tilt around here. A few years ago we fired a guy for fielding a poor team with little chance of victory. What we wanted was stability and growth in performance. Growth stalled last year and this year we are regressing faster than anybody could imagine, with the exception of several sports writers who managed to nail their prediction of a collapse.

What is the prediction for the Spartans considering how many injuries they have along the O-line?
Click to expand...

You're comparing a program that has gone 58-14 with wins in the Outback, Rose and Cotton Bowls in the last 6 years to the Golden Gophers? God help this fanbase.
 

GophersInIowa said:
1. I'd rather have an injury at one spot than injuries at multiple positions.
2. Can people please stop with calling people who have different views than them an "apologist"? It is so overused.
3. I'm not sure why it is complicated to answer your question, Michigan St. is a better team. They've been a very good program for awhile now. They have a potential first or second round QB, better playmakers, more depth, and better overall talent. Pretty simple.
4. Growth did not stall last year. The program has gotten better every season up to this year. We've seen improvement for several years, but have had a tough start to this season and people are ready to throw in the towel? Everyone is frustrated but let it play out a bit.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Let the season play out and let's evaluate the state of the program then. We were in the same spot last year after almost losing to Purdue and then losing to Illinois. I don't anticipate repeating the late season success we had last year, but the team certainly gets their chance. Kill isn't on the hot seat and shouldn't be. He gets as many years as Mase had to see if he can get us past fringe bowl status. He hasn't yet, but he gets his chance.
 

Posts like this are bizarre to me. Do some people here want the program to fail? For the first time since the early 2000s the program is enjoying some success and has some stability. Why are the people that want to support this team and staff called apologists?
 



Dean S said:
The Spartans have lost 4 linemen at one spot this year and are 5-0, I would like the apologists to weigh in on how the Spartans don't apply to poor line play and the Gophers do because of injury. You obviously buy into the notion that these injuries result in poor line play and the loses. But, it does not explain why the Spartans play like winners through the discontinuity and still find a way to win. Sucking up to mediocrity is a poor excuse for leadership. And right now, the excuse machine is running full tilt around here. A few years ago we fired a guy for fielding a poor team with little chance of victory. What we wanted was stability and growth in performance. Growth stalled last year and this year we are regressing faster than anybody could imagine, with the exception of several sports writers who managed to nail their prediction of a collapse.

What is the prediction for the Spartans considering how many injuries they have along the O-line?
Click to expand...

Regarding regression in terms of the Spartans:

Mark Dantonio's teams regressed in 2009 going 6-7 after two season with a record of 7-6 and 9-4, respectively. The Spartans regressed again in 2012 going 7-6 after two seasons going 11-2 and 11-3, respectively - including a big ten championship. He was not fired.

If you want a more accurate example in terms of needing to build up a program practically from scratch: Barry Alvarez made continued progress at Wisconsin for his first four years. They peaked in 1994 going 10-1-1, winning the big ten and the Rose Bowl. They followed that up by regressing the next two years going 7-4-1 and 4-5-2, respectively. Aside from big ten championship years in 1998 and 1999, the Badgers would not finish higher than third in the big ten and their most frequent result was 7th or 8th place. He was not fired.

Yes, these examples include big ten championship seasons within their first four years. We haven't achieved that (we did almost win the division last year - could be a similarity given how the game has changed over time). I am not a fan of the product on the field, but I am interested to see what the staff attempts to do in order to put this team in a position to win games.
 

I feel like if you can't see the difference between Michigan St's situation and Minnesota's and you think they're somehow comparable .... what conversation is there even to be had?

At times I think people believe that if they see some bad play that means Minnesota didn't just push "Be really good." button.
 

Gopherdrummer said:
Regarding regression in terms of the Spartans:

Mark Dantonio's teams regressed in 2009 going 6-7 after two season with a record of 7-6 and 9-4, respectively. The Spartans regressed again in 2012 going 7-6 after two seasons going 11-2 and 11-3, respectively - including a big ten championship. He was not fired.

If you want a more accurate example in terms of needing to build up a program practically from scratch: Barry Alvarez made continued progress at Wisconsin for his first four years. They peaked in 1994 going 10-1-1, winning the big ten and the Rose Bowl. They followed that up by regressing the next two years going 7-4-1 and 4-5-2, respectively. Aside from big ten championship years in 1998 and 1999, the Badgers would not finish higher than third in the big ten and their most frequent result was 7th or 8th place. He was not fired.

Yes, these examples include big ten championship seasons within their first four years. We haven't achieved that (we did almost win the division last year - could be a similarity given how the game has changed over time). I am not a fan of the product on the field, but I am interested to see what the staff attempts to do in order to put this team in a position to win games.
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It's year 5, in essence our team should be made up of the 2011 redshirt seniors, however most of those recruits played right away. Bjorkland, Bush, Campion, and Cockran are all that remain from that 26 person class. Bjorkland is playing without knee cartilage and his mobility has been affected.

Anyone know why Campion is playing RT? He started at LT for 3 years, a concussion shouldn't affect mobility like that. It seems like Pirsig at RT and Campion at LT would make more sense.

Our 2012 class makes up most of the quality starters currently playing, unfortunately injuries at some key positions have devastated our upper class depth.
I think this team is much closer to what we all expect if Plsek, BBC, Travis, Pirsig, and Lauer are healthy. Those are known quantities that have proven their ability to play at a high level in the B1G.
I'll throw in Leidner to that mix too because after Croft played Sat and Streveler's official position change there's no way they are worried about Mitch getting hurt running the ball.
That to me means he's hurt too because the zone read QB keep has been there all year and he almost never keeps the ball which was the best part of his game last year.

MSU has alot more depth at this point, and is healthier overall than us. We could handle being down to our 4th LT too if the rest of the team was healthy. We're honestly not far from that at left guard. In year 8 after several conference championship berth seasons if Kill hasn't built up depth to overcome injuries like MSU then it's time to sound the alarm. Until then let's see how this plays out.
 

Ole said:
It's year 5, in essence our team should be made up of the 2011 redshirt seniors, however most of those recruits played right away. Bjorkland, Bush, Campion, and Cockran are all that remain from that 26 person class. Bjorkland is playing without knee cartilage and his mobility has been affected.

Anyone know why Campion is playing RT? He started at LT for 3 years, a concussion shouldn't affect mobility like that. It seems like Pirsig at RT and Campion at LT would make more sense.

Our 2012 class makes up most of the quality starters currently playing, unfortunately injuries at some key positions have devastated our upper class depth.
I think this team is much closer to what we all expect if Plsek, BBC, Travis, Pirsig, and Lauer are healthy. Those are known quantities that have proven their ability to play at a high level in the B1G.
I'll throw in Leidner to that mix too because after Croft played Sat and Streveler's official position change there's no way they are worried about Mitch getting hurt running the ball.
That to me means he's hurt too because the zone read QB keep has been there all year and he almost never keeps the ball which was the best part of his game last year.

MSU has alot more depth at this point, and is healthier overall than us. We could handle being down to our 4th LT too if the rest of the team was healthy. We're honestly not far from that at left guard. In year 8 after several conference championship berth seasons if Kill hasn't built up depth to overcome injuries like MSU then it's time to sound the alarm. Until then let's see how this plays out.
Click to expand...

Agree with your points. I was just pointing out that many successful coaches have regressive seasons in terms of overall records. There are a lot of variables that have been out of control. Injury bug seems to hit us hard and we burn red shirts. Throw in some transfers out of the program and the depth has been strained. I believe this staff can put together a plan to overcome the setbacks.
 




So many rational posts from different people, and interesting perspectives. It's just football, but everything about this program viewed from a "big picture" perspective can help us all deal with the disappointment of 3-2 coming off a dismal 27-0 loss. I want to win every game and have everything go our way, but that's not the way life works. I'm accused of things including being an apologist or relative, but I have to say that overcoming some adversity to achieve things is pretty fun. After listening to the press conference today, I'm confident we'll get things worked out and we're still on the right path. We haven't reached our ceiling.
 

jonnyganas said:
I'm glad folks on GH keep pointing out what year in the Kill era this is. I would have forgotten otherwise.
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well, when people say things like "he can finally start building after what Brewster left him," you kind of have to point out to that person that that was 5 years ago.
 

skauma said:
well, when people say things like "he can finally start building after what Brewster left him," you kind of have to point out to that person that that was 5 years ago.
Click to expand...

Finally start building DEPTH was I believe the quote. Pretty important distinction, he's clearly already started building overall, what with the last two seasons both well surpassing anything Brewster ever accomplished here.
 

skauma said:
Finally start adding depth? This is year 5.
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It's not really hard to figure out. Guys who should have redshirted play. That drops available depth. Our depth is significantly greater on both sides of the ball than it has been I probably a decade. In 4 more years a catastrophic year on o line will still have a significant impact on any football team, but we'll be in better shape to handle it than we are this year.

Only place we have zero depth is QB. We're playing third and fourth string players in the defensive backfield and still doing a pretty good job.

We had minimal depth at DL, WR, QB, and Oline this fall. The o-line has had more injuries than we could handle/afford which has over exposed known issues at QB and stunted growth of the breadth of receivers we have to build depth. Bodies does not equal depth. Talent = depth.

The recruiting is getting better, and thus the depth. It only happens overnight at schools with coaching not talent issues (Michigan). For us the relent is upgrading each year which flattens out the disparity in talent which has some guys in roles where we have a body, but not the talent to play.

Some seem to argue we should just put players out there and let them fail so we, the fans can judge the talent vs the coaches knowing who is ready and who is not.


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Jerry Kill sends his staff go on comparison of methods studies each spring. I think the comparison between what Michigan State and Minnesota during this time of line trouble is an interesting case study to look at. Calling it the dumbest thread ever is what is claimed by Spoonfed, I mean Spoofin. It is merely a question in search of an answer.

We know that there were 3 years where line recruits were thin on numbers for Minnesota. At the same time, the last 2 years were excellent years for O-line recruiting, adding depth and reserve. However, we need at least 2 more years with 4-5 O-line recruits just to catch up with Michigan State's depth. The outcome should be the ability to replace injured players with capable reserves.

I think the case is all about how the initial 3 years of Jerry Kill's recruiting was insufficient in O-line recruits. That is the difference between maintaining success now and not having success after injury.

In past discussions of those recruiting classes, there have been GH contributors who pooh-pooed that we needed more than 2 or 3 linemen per class. In retrospect, that is not the case now. We are missing that reserve.

If there is any other significant difference between Minnesota and Michigan State, I would certainly like to read those opinions. For those of you who are exasperated by the question or the COM, well, I really don't care what those people think. They are proven idiots.
 

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