STrib: Envy or enmity? The curious case of Eden Prairie football

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As I said. There are some out state schools who were positively affected and negatively affected. But if you think it wasn't driven by the lake schools you are fooling yourself.
 

Winter Park angle is quite the reach. I guess with that angle Eagan will start winning championships. Ive they want to play the recruiting angle, then why dont the private schools like Cretin win more?

Lets face it people just want to hate the people on top. Happens in every sport.

BleedGopher said:
per the STrib:

The affluent community invests in its sports programs. Grant is the son of Minnesota football royalty. And Vikings headquarters are within city limits.

Such advantages really cannot be replicated by other communities.

Go Gophers!!
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GoldenUMNGopher said:
Winter Park angle is quite the reach. I guess with that angle Eagan will start winning championships. Ive they want to play the recruiting angle, then why dont the private schools like Cretin win more?

Lets face it people just want to hate the people on top. Happens in every sport.
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Eden prairie has had more than a few players with Vikings ties help them win games. Definitely something to it though not all of the success. It will be interesting to see if the move of the Viking headquarters affects EP, Eagan, or Eastview.

Cretin and totino are the only schools who have really threatened the big 3 public schools (EP, Wayzata, and tonka) the last 10 years so I don't know why you insult cretin here.

To get a school other than those 4 (big three and cretin) you have to go back to 2003 (pre-split lakeville). In the past 15 years it is those 4, one by lakeville when they were just as big as those 3, one by Hastings.

really the Hastings title is the only one that wasn't won by cretin or a mega school.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
with all due regards, the move to a District FB system was not based solely on Twin Cities concerns. A lot of the out-state schools have also had scheduling problems because of conferences with an odd number of teams. In SW MN, smaller schools have had to drive long distances to pick up non-conference games, play teams from South Dakota, or in some cases, have a conference schedule where you play the same team twice in a season. That led to some teams playing each other 3 times in one season if they were in the same Section.

Enrollment is nice, but I could list dozens of situations in 9-man, Class A or AA where schools with smaller enrollments are very successful, and schools with larger enrollments struggle. It's a combination of talent, coaching, and creating a winning attitude that makes kids want to play FB.
On the flip side, schools that don't win create an atmosphere where kids don't want to be part of the program.
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The changes now cause schools to have to travel long distances that previously didn't have to though. My former HS now has to travel over 100 miles twice this year instead of playing two schools that are 30-40 miles away like they normally would.
 

GophersInIowa said:
The changes now cause schools to have to travel long distances that previously didn't have to though. My former HS now has to travel over 100 miles twice this year instead of playing two schools that are 30-40 miles away like they normally would.
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The MSHSL did not do any schedules. The districts did. Many districts have 13-28 teams, so chances are that's what the coaches and districts chose to have teams play.


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Bob_Loblaw said:
I don't know enough about it, but wouldn't it be better to have two schools of 1500 kids rather than 1 school of 3000 kids? All else being equal? I don't know enough about it and I'm not blasting EP, but I think for kids who struggle, it would be really easy to get "lost" in one of those huge schools.


On an earlier note, whoever the poster who was talking about their youth program, they are dead on. I realize that other schools have good "feeder" programs, but EP is the model. Their size and their feeder systems and their mindset are why they're so successful. I won a state championship with CDH 15 years ago, we never built what EP has built, but the mindset around that program was to expect perfection (people didn't miss workouts, people studied the playbook, people knew there was less messing around, etc.). I imagine, with EP's dominance, that mindset permeates all of their various levels of football.
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From speaking with my cousins who went to Wayzata, I really don't think there's much practical difference for most students between 1500 and 3,000 students. A few more electives at the 3,000 and less duplicative administration. I don't know of any way they're measuring lost students but the test scores are good. At my high school of 300 students we certainly seemed to have our fair share of lost kids. In my opinion the push to build extra high schools is more about misguided parents hoping that their kid will have a better chance to play sports than it is about improving education.


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I live in Eden Prairie with my family now & graduated from another envious high school to the east that wears green.

I used to think that it was only due to "they're the biggest high school, of course they'll win." After watching them now for a few more years, there's definitely more to it than that.

It would be crazy to deny a lot of the advantages that the school has in terms of size, resources, and affluent parents. But then why doesn't Wayzata have as much success? Why doesn't Minnetonka? (I love the throwing in of Minnetonka to this discussion, as if they've ever been relevant. They're a wannabe....they want to be Eden Prairie football & Edina hockey. I think Minnetonka is a Native American word that means "lose to Edina every year in late February/early March in hockey.") Some of the northern suburbs with numbers, why don't they have the same success?

They truly are started on an early path with the youth program. And like Edina hockey, when the varsity program has success, when you're a little guy, you want to be a part of that. You see the older kids winning championships and you dream of doing that someday, so everyone wants to be a part of it. What Eden Prairie does football wise, I've never considered it sophisticated. They just do it better than their opponents. And winning is contagious.

I don't know a whole lot about the reshuffling of districts & such, but if I had to guess, I'm saying that it has a little do with both. I'm sure the Lake schools have plenty of influence, but many schools did not want to play Eden Prairie or Wayzata.

I guess my premise is: EP had advantages, but why can't anyone else with similar advantages duplicate their success?
 

Enrollments for reference. I believe that Edina and Eden Prairie are the only two with one school or city to represent. All resources from City, Associations/Clubs, School district lead to support one High School program. That should not be understated. (As the story goes, Nelson left Blaine for Minnetonka because Blaine football could not be treated different than Coon Rapids, Andover, Anoka, and Champlin)

Wayzata High School3078
Minnetonka High School2940
Eden Prairie High School2777
Edina High School2580
Stillwater Area High School2558
Blaine High School2555
Prior Lake High School2354
Champlin Park High School2320
Burnsville High School2162
Maple Grove High School2147
White Bear Lake Area High School2077
Anoka High School2043
Eastview High School2001


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MaxyJR1 said:
Enrollments for reference. I believe that Edina and Eden Prairie are the only two with one school or city to represent. All resources from City, Associations/Clubs, School district lead to support one High School program. That should not be understated. (As the story goes, Nelson left Blaine for Minnetonka because Blaine football could not be treated different than Coon Rapids, Andover, Anoka, and Champlin)

Wayzata High School3078
Minnetonka High School2940
Eden Prairie High School2777
Edina High School2580
Stillwater Area High School2558
Blaine High School2555
Prior Lake High School2354
Champlin Park High School2320
Burnsville High School2162
Maple Grove High School2147
White Bear Lake Area High School2077
Anoka High School2043
Eastview High School2001


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These are not the accurate enrollment numbers. This is the adjusted number the MSHSL uses after they take away 40% of the free and reduced price lunch crowd. Some Minneapolis/St. Paul schools are 90% free lunch, therefor their enrollment on the MSHSL page will show much lower than reality, allowing them to play down a class or two in sports. They can also apply to move down another class if they are over 50% free lunch. They also double the male only schools such as St. Thomas Academy.
 



AO54 said:
In my opinion the push to build extra high schools is more about misguided parents hoping that their kid will have a better chance to play sports than it is about improving education.


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That is ridiculous. So you see no other value to not having a mega-school than just splitting up the sports?

So why don't we just have one school in each region of the metro area. Each school would have an enrollment of 12,000 students. No loss in education and we could field real good sports teams. Of course each school would only need one administrator so we could save all those redundant costs.


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alchemy2u said:
That is ridiculous. So you see no other value to not having a mega-school than just splitting up the sports?

So why don't we just have one school in each region of the metro area. Each school would have an enrollment of 12,000 students. No loss in education and we could field real good sports teams. Of course each school would only need one administrator so we could save all those redundant costs.


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We lack the density to make that practical, but sure I don't believe the education would suffer. Same reason I believe the U is just as good if not better than schools much smaller than it.


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Lakeville North & Mounds View are schools of similar enrollment (1700ish) are both better than Minnetonka in the last 5 years. Rosemount has been right there too. Injuries may have cost them a chance to be the best team last year.
 

Mvgopher said:
Lakeville North & Mounds View are schools of similar enrollment (1700ish) are both better than Minnetonka in the last 5 years. Rosemount has been right there too. Injuries may have cost them a chance to be the best team last year.
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Minnetonka is one of just 4 schools to win a state title since the lakeville schools split.
So as mediocre as they are, they belong in the conversation.
 



AO54 said:
We lack the density to make that practical, but sure I don't believe the education would suffer. Same reason I believe the U is just as good if not better than schools much smaller than it.


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There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Having worked in both I prefer a school of 1600-2100. Anything over 2000 really causes a school to feel different. For instance, when at a school of 2000 I was able to learn the names of all the other teachers within a few months. When at a school of 3000 a left after a few years having never had interaction with a good portion of the faculty.


Some good some bad in both. Communities have to make their own decisions. Not really a bad choice between the two, but I would take the smaller school model.
 

BleedGopher said:
per the STrib:

No Minnesota prep sports program has the polarizing effect of Eden Prairie football. This year should be no exception. The Eagles, winners of the past four big-school football state championships — a feat no other program has done — are the preseason favorites to do it again. No team has defeated them since Wayzata did it in 2012. They haven’t lost in the state tournament since 2010. That is what gets football fans so fired up. For all who marvel at the Eagles’ remarkable success, others roll their eyes and plead for someone, anyone, to knock them off.

The longtime Stillwater football coach, who retired with four state championships, stood with old friend Mike Grant last fall on the TCF Bank Stadium turf. He offered Grant, Eden Prairie’s coach, congratulations for a fourth consecutive state title and 10th overall.

“They should move Eden Prairie to Class 7A,” Thole joked.

Some prep football fans shake their heads and smile about the Eagles’ dynasty. Others, from parents with sons in competing programs to rabid fans, renew their bitterness with each conference title and section victory of its November reign.

They are tired of the winning, of course. Eden Prairie’s current postseason run of 20 consecutive victories includes four state titles. The Eagles also have a 30-game winning streak overall. Most grinding, though, are Eagles’ fans views of why the team is successful. This idea that hard work and sacrifice are qualities unique to Eden Prairie.

Football is a numbers game. Eden Prairie is one of two high schools (Wayzata is the other) in the state hovering near 3,000 students.

The affluent community invests in its sports programs. Grant is the son of Minnesota football royalty. And Vikings headquarters are within city limits.

Such advantages really cannot be replicated by other communities.

http://www.mnfootballhub.com/news_article/show/546062

Go Gophers!!
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I would argue that Apple Valley wrestling is more polarizing than EP football.
 

gopher7 said:
I would argue that Apple Valley wrestling is more polarizing than EP football.
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Apple Valley Wrestling
Edina Hockey
Edina Girls Tennis
Hopkins Basketball
Eden Prairie Football

All have one thing in common, dynasty starts with great coaching, repeated success starts to draw talent across borders which perpetuates success. Saying they recruit and that is why they are great is missing the point. If school size is such an advantage why is EP so average in so many other sports. Yes they have a great youth program, but that comes back to involvement with the youth program by the coaching staff at the high school. Asking why Mike Grant didn't win it all at Forest Lake is pointless, maybe he became a better coach, maybe he had better support, what matters is that what he has done since he went to EP has created a dynasty that will be difficult to dislodge as long as he stays there because every year it continues more talent will flock there wanting to be part of the "best"
 

Size matters, but so does money

I am a MV parent. We tend to be on the smaller size. The last few years, we were actually moved to 5A and we opted up to stay in 6A.

Being closely involved in the HS Sports community for the last several years, I have close relationships with many dads in similar positions at other north metro schools... Champlin Park, Park Center, Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, etc. Some a big 6A schools, some are small. Watching other teams look to find success, I believe a school is good in FB because of three things.

1) A good coach. Without this, you can have seasons where you compete, but long term success requires a top notch coach.
2) A community that financially invests in their program. If a program invests in uniforms, weight room, etc, it tends to breed success. Kids want to play for a program that has nice stuff, nice fields, etc. Poorer communities that don't or can't invest tend to struggle having consistent success.
3) A community feeder program - It works best when you have a coach that openly embraces the youth fb program and parents that give kids a vision. Kids that want to play for EP when they are 11 years old, will probably want to play when they are 15.
4) 4th is numbers. It is nice, but not neccesary.

We are the smallest public school in 6A but are usually ranked in the top teams almost every year. I feel we are lucky to have the coach we have. Schools that I feel are similar are Rosemount - I could say the same about Coach Erdmann. Lakeville North, Osseo, and Maple Grove* are also ranked the same in my mind, all great programs that compete with the largest schools despite having enrollments below 1800 kids. When these guys beat a bigger school, I have to give them their props.

Numbers alone don't equal success ( Mtka, Stillwater, Champlin, all over 2500 kids) may be examples of this...they have nice years, but not consistent success.

EP has all three, plus a massive amount of students. Tough to complete with. I respect their success, but acknowledge they have an advantage most don't - big money, big numbers. That helps significantly. I believe Grant is a great coach, but they have advantages no school in the area has. Am I negative on them? No. Do I root for their opponents? Yes.

As for the privates? I will refrain because that is a separate post. I have strong feelings about recruiting after we have lost several high end athletes to their schools.

*edit - Maple Grove's enrollment is now in the top 10 http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/enrollments15.asp?sort=2
 

LakerFan said:
Apple Valley Wrestling
Edina Hockey
Edina Girls Tennis
Hopkins Basketball
Eden Prairie Football

All have one thing in common, dynasty starts with great coaching, repeated success starts to draw talent across borders which perpetuates success. Saying they recruit and that is why they are great is missing the point. If school size is such an advantage why is EP so average in so many other sports. Yes they have a great youth program, but that comes back to involvement with the youth program by the coaching staff at the high school. Asking why Mike Grant didn't win it all at Forest Lake is pointless, maybe he became a better coach, maybe he had better support, what matters is that what he has done since he went to EP has created a dynasty that will be difficult to dislodge as long as he stays there because every year it continues more talent will flock there wanting to be part of the "best"
Click to expand...

By average?

Basketball: #1 section seed and lost to Hopkins in Section Final.
Hockey: #1 Section Seed and 4th at State.
Wrestling: 30-6 but 4th seed in section. (hired old Apple Valley Coach)
Baseball: #3 seed of 12 in their section
Lacrosse: #1 in section, 3rd at State
 

MaxyJR1 said:
By average?

Basketball: #1 section seed and lost to Hopkins in Section Final.
Hockey: #1 Section Seed and 4th at State.
Wrestling: 30-6 but 4th seed in section. (hired old Apple Valley Coach)
Baseball: #3 seed of 12 in their section
Lacrosse: #1 in section, 3rd at State
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I would contend that Boys Lacrosse is the only other program they are close to being consistently at the top of. When you take the above with the sports like boys soccer and girls softball that they are below average at, it doesn't leave you with supporting evidence that size = success.
 

LakerFan said:
I would contend that Boys Lacrosse is the only other program they are close to being consistently at the top of. When you take the above with the sports like boys soccer and girls softball that they are below average at, it doesn't leave you with supporting evidence that size = success.
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I assume you at an advocate of having fewer classes since that is the case?
 

Some guy said:
I assume you at an advocate of having fewer classes since that is the case?
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No I was making the point that Mike Grant is the primary driver behind the success, not school size. I don't care if they split or not, I don't see it as that big of an advantage over the 31 schools in their 6A class that are of similar size. In general, I don't think you make decisions to split not split schools over high school athletics, that's silly.
 

Some guy said:
I assume you at an advocate of having fewer classes since that is the case?
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Multiple classes is a marketing problem. Need better names to distinguish the divisions. Call 6A the championship division, then the others B,C,D or 2,3,4.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
By average?

Basketball: #1 section seed and lost to Hopkins in Section Final.
Hockey: #1 Section Seed and 4th at State.
Wrestling: 30-6 but 4th seed in section. (hired old Apple Valley Coach)
Baseball: #3 seed of 12 in their section
Lacrosse: #1 in section, 3rd at State
Click to expand...

Plus numbers in football is much much more important than numbers in any other sport so they would have more of an advantage in that sport, not that they aren't good in other areas.
 

AO54 said:
These are not the accurate enrollment numbers. This is the adjusted number the MSHSL uses after they take away 40% of the free and reduced price lunch crowd. Some Minneapolis/St. Paul schools are 90% free lunch, therefor their enrollment on the MSHSL page will show much lower than reality, allowing them to play down a class or two in sports. They can also apply to move down another class if they are over 50% free lunch. They also double the male only schools such as St. Thomas Academy.
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Plus many schools like Edina and Hopkins off the top of my head have only sophomores, juniors and seniors while the freshman are still at the middle school so that skews the enrollment numbers.
 

gopherdad said:
I am a MV parent. We tend to be on the smaller size. The last few years, we were actually moved to 5A and we opted up to stay in 6A...
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Thanks for the post. I wish more people felt the way you do and showed the same respect you show. It's fine to cheer for the Davids against the Goliaths, but too often it goes way beyond that and becomes downright mean in nature (especially on anonymous message boards and newspaper comment sections).

It's frustrating as an Eden Prairie parent to see the hatred some people have against EPHS. And it's mostly because the community made the economically prudent decision to have a single large high school instead of two smaller ones. Had they gone with two schools, I believe one or both would eventually be struggling to maintain viable enrollments now that the city is almost 100% developed and the residents that moved here when it was growing are getting older.

I wasn't around when the decisions were being made, but I have to believe it isn't a coincidence that EPHS was opened in 1981 and Edina East High School closed the same year. I have a feeling that the issues Edina was facing were probably a driving force in the decision to only have one high school for Eden Prairie.

So go ahead and cheer against EPHS football. I know I probably would, too if I didn't live there.
 

die hard gopher said:
Plus many schools like Edina and Hopkins off the top of my head have only sophomores, juniors and seniors while the freshman are still at the middle school so that skews the enrollment numbers.
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The freshmen are included for these schools. Edina is only 2,010 students 10-12.
 

And they keep getting bigger - Wayzata is doing a decent sized addition right now.
 

gopherdad said:
I am a MV parent. We tend to be on the smaller size. The last few years, we were actually moved to 5A and we opted up to stay in 6A.

Being closely involved in the HS Sports community for the last several years, I have close relationships with many dads in similar positions at other north metro schools... Champlin Park, Park Center, Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, etc. Some a big 6A schools, some are small. Watching other teams look to find success, I believe a school is good in FB because of three things.

1) A good coach. Without this, you can have seasons where you compete, but long term success requires a top notch coach.
2) A community that financially invests in their program. If a program invests in uniforms, weight room, etc, it tends to breed success. Kids want to play for a program that has nice stuff, nice fields, etc. Poorer communities that don't or can't invest tend to struggle having consistent success.
3) A community feeder program - It works best when you have a coach that openly embraces the youth fb program and parents that give kids a vision. Kids that want to play for EP when they are 11 years old, will probably want to play when they are 15.
4) 4th is numbers. It is nice, but not neccesary.

We are the smallest public school in 6A but are usually ranked in the top teams almost every year. I feel we are lucky to have the coach we have. Schools that I feel are similar are Rosemount - I could say the same about Coach Erdmann. Lakeville North, Osseo, and Maple Grove* are also ranked the same in my mind, all great programs that compete with the largest schools despite having enrollments below 1800 kids. When these guys beat a bigger school, I have to give them their props.

Numbers alone don't equal success ( Mtka, Stillwater, Champlin, all over 2500 kids) may be examples of this...they have nice years, but not consistent success.

EP has all three, plus a massive amount of students. Tough to complete with. I respect their success, but acknowledge they have an advantage most don't - big money, big numbers. That helps significantly. I believe Grant is a great coach, but they have advantages no school in the area has. Am I negative on them? No. Do I root for their opponents? Yes.

As for the privates? I will refrain because that is a separate post. I have strong feelings about recruiting after we have lost several high end athletes to their schools.

*edit - Maple Grove's enrollment is now in the top 10 http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/enrollments15.asp?sort=2
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Excellent post. Number of football players is the key, not just enrollment. Other communities based on demographics don't have the same amount of football (Size) people.

I believe that Coon Rapids could play down in every sport if wanted to based on the number of kids on free or reduced lunches. I believe you can't just pick the sports you want to do it in. It has to be all sports. Plus Baseball and Wrestling would likely dominate at a lower level. (Both these sports have pull-tabs supporting them.)
 

LakerFan said:
I would contend that Boys Lacrosse is the only other program they are close to being consistently at the top of. When you take the above with the sports like boys soccer and girls softball that they are below average at, it doesn't leave you with supporting evidence that size = success.
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This may suggest otherwise. MSHSL Challenge Cup Standings.
 

If you don't like Eden Prairie, then beat them. It can be done. It has been done. Just Do It. There should be a circled date and the focus at Minnetonka needs to peak on September 18th at 7 P.M. Dave Nelson, you are on the clock. You have all the facilities. You have enrollment. There is no excuse. Next Up Brad Anderson you need to finish strong and take it to EP, October 9th. You have done it once, get it done. Again. These two programs have not met the expectations of fans, backers, yet both enjoy funding facilities, and comparable enrollment. There are no excuses.
 

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