Have we lowered our standards for transfers?

El Amin Fan

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A big knock on Monson was that he took a lot of local transfers into the program. The amazing thing is, almost all of the transfers he took were from major conference teams. Adam Boone (UNC), Dan Coleman (Boston College), Ben Johnson (Northwestern), Jonathan Williams (St. John's), Mo Hargrow (Arkansas), Lawrence McKenzie (Oklahoma). Most of these guys (outside of Boone) weren't really being "run out of town" per se, so it wasn't as if we were a fall back. They just wanted out of their current program for one reason or another, and all of these guys had nice contributions at the U, and I would argue that everyone of these guys would be an upgrade over our projected starters this year, outside of maybe Boone due to him being a bit slow, but he was still solid.

Now here we are in year three and we have had three local players transfer to Minnesota. One from Drake and two from Illinois State. This is not an indictment on anything, more of an observation that at least so far, the programs that we are getting our transfers from are much less accomplished than the programs we used to get our transfers from.
 

The current transfers are the up and coming stars of their teams. In the past it may have been more a switch to try and get playing time.


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I would argue that everyone of these guys would be an upgrade over our projected starters this year, outside of maybe Boone due to him being a bit slow, but he was still solid

6’9” 285lbs center that is slow and can't jump?
 

How many MN players are currently at schools like UNC, BC, etc. ? Tyus and Vaughn have gone pro after one year. So unless Reid transfers home, not many candidates meet your criteria. Maybe Riley Dearing from Wisconsin? Chambers at Harvard? Do those count as possibilities?
 

6’9” 285lbs center that is slow and can't jump?

Based off the limited minutes I saw Konate last year, yes, Williams seems better. But he could jump when he transferred here. He just couldn't jump when he left the program. Big difference.
 


How many MN players are currently at schools like UNC, BC, etc. ? Tyus and Vaughn have gone pro after one year. So unless Reid transfers home, not many candidates meet your criteria. Maybe Riley Dearing from Wisconsin? Chambers at Harvard? Do those count as possibilities?

Kyle Washington is from MN and is at NC State and is transferring. Illikainen will be at UW next year. Anim will be at Marquette.
 


Based off the limited minutes I saw Konate last year, yes, Williams seems better. But he could jump when he transferred here. He just couldn't jump when he left the program. Big difference.

Sophomore year Johnson or McKenzie vs. Mason.

I'd take Konate over can't jump Williams without question.

Boone, what a slug.
 

Sophomore year Johnson or McKenzie vs. Mason. I'd take Mason.

I'd take Konate over can't jump Williams without question.

Fair enough. The OP was just a thought I had on my way to work. Nothing more.
 



Kyle Washington is from MN and is at NC State and is transferring. Illikainen will be at UW next year. Anim will be at Marquette.

Washington is only sort of from here as he did prep school and his family now lives in the east coast.

And are you saying Alex and Anim should be transferring here prior to their freshman year? I'm not sure I get the argument there. They've played zero minutes at their current school, why would they be transferring exactly?
 

Washington is only sort of from here as he did prep school and his family now lives in the east coast.

And are you saying Alex and Anim should be transferring here prior to their freshman year? I'm not sure I get the argument there. They've played zero minutes at their current school, why would they be transferring exactly?

I'm not saying that, though Coleman did transfer back before ever playing at BC.
 

Fair enough. The OP was just a thought I had on my way to work. Nothing more.

It's an interesting question. Just hard not to compare their senior years vs. some of our guys in second year or incoming freshman.

Dan Coleman, he was a little soft, but a very skilled fella.
 





Fair enough. The OP was just a thought I had on my way to work. Nothing more.

El Amin- this is an interesting topic. I would submit to you that Monson's problem wasn't that he took some transfers but rather that they were his best recruits outside of Rickert. He just didn't put together enough good full classes of 4 year guys. I think it's fine to augment a nice class such as we have coming in with a transfer like Lynch. I don't think that Pitino has lowered the standards nor do I think transfers are his long term recruiting strategy.
 

El Amin- this is an interesting topic. I would submit to you that Monson's problem wasn't that he took some transfers but rather that they were his best recruits outside of Rickert. He just didn't put together enough good full classes of 4 year guys. I think it's fine to augment a nice class such as we have coming in with a transfer like Lynch. I don't think that Pitino has lowered the standards nor do I think transfers are his long term recruiting strategy.

Neither do I. He's filling roster holes right now trying to recover from what he had to do two years in a row now with transfer/spring recruiting. Hopefully this is not a trend, but I wouldn't be surprised if we have one more year with JUCO/Transfers coming in to even out our recruiting classes a bit.
 

Illikainen dicked around until we did not appear to have a scholarship anymore. He had a year to decide to come here and would not make a decision until we signed someone else. If Anim could shoot, he would be here, great kid. If he turns into a great shooter next year, he was a miss.
The real question is what the transfers had done where they were, not which school they came from. Lynch was a key factor in beating Wichita State this year, Wichita State is a good team and really well coached. The only guy we have missed on who can say he played a bigger game than that is Tyus.
 


If thats the case, then we are not the only school lowering our standards.
In the last 3 years I count at least 6 kids that transferred from the MVC to the Big 10.

Rayvonte Rice: Drake to Illinois
Joey King: Drake to MN
John Ekey: Illinois State to Illinois
Nick Ziesloft:Illinois State to Indiana
Lofton: Illinois State to MN
Lynch: Illinois State to MN
 

If thats the case, then we are not the only school lowering our standards.
In the last 3 years I count at least 6 kids that transferred from the MVC to the Big 10.

Rayvonte Rice: Drake to Illinois
Joey King: Drake to MN
John Ekey: Illinois State to Illinois
Nick Ziesloft:Illinois State to Indiana
Lofton: Illinois State to MN, then booted to Hamline
Lynch: Illinois State to MN

FIFY
 


I don't think it matters where they come from

If thats the case, then we are not the only school lowering our standards.
In the last 3 years I count at least 6 kids that transferred from the MVC to the Big 10.

Rayvonte Rice: Drake to Illinois
Joey King: Drake to MN
John Ekey: Illinois State to Illinois
Nick Ziesloft:Illinois State to Indiana
Lofton: Illinois State to MN
Lynch: Illinois State to MN

but we do have 3 of the 6 and Illinois has two and we are both struggling. We were in desperate need of of people and Joey was able to play right away. He is a solid contributer. Very cool with that addition, at the time. However if Pitino is building a program to win the Big Ten I don't think Lynch is a good sign. He does not fit the system and he ties up a scholarship for 3 years, but can only play two. Lofton, was last year and the argument can be made he could be spectacular....if he could harness his abilities. So, I see the argument for that one too. But, I think we are settling by accepting Lynch in year three versus recruiting an athletic player who is highly recruited and we beat some established programs out for his services. Or even an athletic potentially elite guy we develop. Don't think Lynch is that.
I just think we could manage the roster better than we are. Worried who these next two guys are because Hurt imo is not going to make an impact. We need to recruit something other than role players, bodies, contributors.
 

but we do have 3 of the 6 and Illinois has two and we are both struggling.....
I just think we could manage the roster better than we are. Worried who these next two guys are because Hurt imo is not going to make an impact. We need to recruit something other than role players, bodies, contributors.

Yes because we were doing so much better in 2003-2004 (Ben Johnson, Adam Boone and Kris Humphries, 3-13 BIG record) 2004-2005 was better(10-6BIG record) with Coleman and Jonathan Williams(never impacted the team) But 2005-2006 when Hargrow played his 1 season it was terrible (5-11 BIG record) followed by an atrocious 2006-2007 where we added McKenzie that resulted in Monson going bye bye.

Edit: My point is so far these mid-major transfers seem to be doing just fine on an overall team that is doing marginally better(if and only if in the next 2 years we get to the NCAA's)
 

but we do have 3 of the 6 and Illinois has two and we are both struggling. We were in desperate need of of people and Joey was able to play right away. He is a solid contributer. Very cool with that addition, at the time. However if Pitino is building a program to win the Big Ten I don't think Lynch is a good sign. He does not fit the system and he ties up a scholarship for 3 years, but can only play two. Lofton, was last year and the argument can be made he could be spectacular....if he could harness his abilities. So, I see the argument for that one too. But, I think we are settling by accepting Lynch in year three versus recruiting an athletic player who is highly recruited and we beat some established programs out for his services. Or even an athletic potentially elite guy we develop. Don't think Lynch is that.
I just think we could manage the roster better than we are. Worried who these next two guys are because Hurt imo is not going to make an impact. We need to recruit something other than role players, bodies, contributors.

If he had hit the open market he would of had plenty of offers. From what little film I could find, it appears he fits the system just fine.
 

Would Washington have been a better transfer "get" than Lynch?
 

Would Washington have been a better transfer "get" than Lynch?


Good question. I think they are very comparable 'gets'.
Kyle with a bit more range and a bit more polished offensively.
and Reggie being stronger and better defensively.
A better question is did we even have a shot at getting Washington?
 

Good question. I think they are very comparable 'gets'.
Kyle with a bit more range and a bit more polished offensively.
and Reggie being stronger and better defensively.
A better question is did we even have a shot at getting Washington?

Jigga, I don't want to inconvenience you, but do you have access to ISU game film for Lynch?
 

A big knock on Monson was that he took a lot of local transfers into the program. The amazing thing is, almost all of the transfers he took were from major conference teams. Adam Boone (UNC), Dan Coleman (Boston College), Ben Johnson (Northwestern), Jonathan Williams (St. John's), Mo Hargrow (Arkansas), Lawrence McKenzie (Oklahoma). Most of these guys (outside of Boone) weren't really being "run out of town" per se, so it wasn't as if we were a fall back. They just wanted out of their current program for one reason or another, and all of these guys had nice contributions at the U, and I would argue that everyone of these guys would be an upgrade over our projected starters this year, outside of maybe Boone due to him being a bit slow, but he was still solid.

Now here we are in year three and we have had three local players transfer to Minnesota. One from Drake and two from Illinois State. This is not an indictment on anything, more of an observation that at least so far, the programs that we are getting our transfers from are much less accomplished than the programs we used to get our transfers from.

This is one of the more interesting questions posed on the board lately. I guess I'd start my own answer by saying that the transfer landscape has changed immensely since Monson was coaching the Gophers. In the past it was rare, if not unheard of, for successful mid-major players to transfer "up". Transfers used to basically only occur to do coaching changes, behavioral/academic issues, playing time, or the coach pushing/"suggesting" someone leave. I think three factors changed the landscape:

1. Prevalence of one and done or two and done players at the Blue Bloods: The 6-7 schools that can get the very best talent are recycling through 13 scholarships every 2-3 year instead of every 4-5 years. Maybe that adds up to 10-12 guys each season that would have been distributed to the rest of college basketball being taken by these programs.

2. More kids and/or their parents are becoming dissatisfied with playing time at an earlier stage in their careers. It used to be a kid would transfer out for their final two years if it didn't look like they were going to play much as an upperclassmen. Now we have kids leaving after their first year creating unexpected needs (ex Josh Martin with the Gophers).

3. The 5th year immediately eligible transfer. I think this was a game changer. High majors that had a scholarship open up could now get a guy who was productive at a lower level of competition with a ton of game experience instead of taking a player available in the Spring who might be a reach and would be unlikely to help immediately. The big advantage of course is taking the 5th year guy is just a one year gamble on the kids talent while taking a high school or JUCO guy ties up the scholarship for longer...unless you are confident you can "suggest" that player out of the program if it doesn't work out. I think the success of some of these guys from mid/low majors playing the one year at the high major level made high major coaches more open to taking a guy from a lower level. Further, when more successful mid/low major players saw guys they were better than move up to the high major level as 5th year guys it gave those guys confidence that if they decided to get out of their scholarship, they'd have high major interest.

I'd point out that it's not just the Gophers taking transfers from mid majors, but programs like Duke, Michigan State, and Arizona have also done it recently. I don't think it's necessarily a concern that the Gophers are taking guys from mid-majors, but it is a concern if those guys are not standouts at that level. I think it's fair to say that only Reggie Lynch (especially considering he's a 6'10 sophomore) could be considered a standout Missouri Valley Conference performer among the three recruits Pitino has taken. 3 years of Joey King is a lot to take on and it's an indictment on Pitino if he's starting again next year. That said, King as a 12-15 minute guy? I think he's ok. Given King's immediate eligibility and the state of the roster at the time, I understand why Pitino took him, but I really doubt he intended for him to regularly play big minutes. I didn't like the Lofton move at all, but I've heard from people I respect that he has a lot of talent. I am sure he impressed Pitino in his workout (Pitino said as much in interviews), but those numbers at Illinois State were not encouraging.

As for Monson and transfers, one of the main reasons why people were upset was the idea that their was no incentive for a local kid to pick the Gophers out of high school because if he chose to go elsewhere, Monson would just take him back if he didn't like choice number one. I think if these kids came back to Minnesota and had a lot of success (personal or team), then things would have been viewed differently. Hargrow was as his best as a Sophomore, had a somewhat disappointing JR year (slight regression in stats) and transferred to Arkansas where if I remember correctly he only participated in a few practices before transferring back to Minnesota for a SR year that was disappointing. The McKenzie situation hurt because Monson chose to prioritize Lawrence over Kam Taylor as he was only going to take one PG. McKenzie ended up choosing Oklahoma and Kam Taylor tormented us a bit as a Badger (famously rolling the ball toward Monson after one Badger victory) and we ended up getting McKenzie back for Monson's last abysmal season and the first year of Tubby's tenure.

I have been a little surprised at the lack of interest in Minnesota from some of the bigger transfers over the past couple of seasons. Last season in particular we had a very solid (on paper) team coming back with a clear opening for both a SF who could shoot it and an athletic PF. Do we have to go back to Terrence Simmons to find a non-Minnesota born kid transferring to the Gophers from another high major? With so many guys moving around, you'd think that would change fairly soon. That said, their have been some very good transfers from the mid major level recently, so I just hope we find someone who can have an impact regardless of their previous school.
 

This is one of the more interesting questions posed on the board lately. I guess I'd start my own answer by saying that the transfer landscape has changed immensely since Monson was coaching the Gophers. In the past it was rare, if not unheard of, for successful mid-major players to transfer "up". Transfers used to basically only occur to do coaching changes, behavioral/academic issues, playing time, or the coach pushing/"suggesting" someone leave. I think three factors changed the landscape:

1. Prevalence of one and done or two and done players at the Blue Bloods: The 6-7 schools that can get the very best talent are recycling through 13 scholarships every 2-3 year instead of every 4-5 years. Maybe that adds up to 10-12 guys each season that would have been distributed to the rest of college basketball being taken by these programs.

2. More kids and/or their parents are becoming dissatisfied with playing time at an earlier stage in their careers. It used to be a kid would transfer out for their final two years if it didn't look like they were going to play much as an upperclassmen. Now we have kids leaving after their first year creating unexpected needs (ex Josh Martin with the Gophers).

3. The 5th year immediately eligible transfer. I think this was a game changer. High majors that had a scholarship open up could now get a guy who was productive at a lower level of competition with a ton of game experience instead of taking a player available in the Spring who might be a reach and would be unlikely to help immediately. The big advantage of course is taking the 5th year guy is just a one year gamble on the kids talent while taking a high school or JUCO guy ties up the scholarship for longer...unless you are confident you can "suggest" that player out of the program if it doesn't work out. I think the success of some of these guys from mid/low majors playing the one year at the high major level made high major coaches more open to taking a guy from a lower level. Further, when more successful mid/low major players saw guys they were better than move up to the high major level as 5th year guys it gave those guys confidence that if they decided to get out of their scholarship, they'd have high major interest.

I'd point out that it's not just the Gophers taking transfers from mid majors, but programs like Duke, Michigan State, and Arizona have also done it recently. I don't think it's necessarily a concern that the Gophers are taking guys from mid-majors, but it is a concern if those guys are not standouts at that level. I think it's fair to say that only Reggie Lynch (especially considering he's a 6'10 sophomore) could be considered a standout Missouri Valley Conference performer among the three recruits Pitino has taken. 3 years of Joey King is a lot to take on and it's an indictment on Pitino if he's starting again next year. That said, King as a 12-15 minute guy? I think he's ok. Given King's immediate eligibility and the state of the roster at the time, I understand why Pitino took him, but I really doubt he intended for him to regularly play big minutes. I didn't like the Lofton move at all, but I've heard from people I respect that he has a lot of talent. I am sure he impressed Pitino in his workout (Pitino said as much in interviews), but those numbers at Illinois State were not encouraging.

As for Monson and transfers, one of the main reasons why people were upset was the idea that their was no incentive for a local kid to pick the Gophers out of high school because if he chose to go elsewhere, Monson would just take him back if he didn't like choice number one. I think if these kids came back to Minnesota and had a lot of success (personal or team), then things would have been viewed differently. Hargrow was as his best as a Sophomore, had a somewhat disappointing JR year (slight regression in stats) and transferred to Arkansas where if I remember correctly he only participated in a few practices before transferring back to Minnesota for a SR year that was disappointing. The McKenzie situation hurt because Monson chose to prioritize Lawrence over Kam Taylor as he was only going to take one PG. McKenzie ended up choosing Oklahoma and Kam Taylor tormented us a bit as a Badger (famously rolling the ball toward Monson after one Badger victory) and we ended up getting McKenzie back for Monson's last abysmal season and the first year of Tubby's tenure.

I have been a little surprised at the lack of interest in Minnesota from some of the bigger transfers over the past couple of seasons. Last season in particular we had a very solid (on paper) team coming back with a clear opening for both a SF who could shoot it and an athletic PF. Do we have to go back to Terrence Simmons to find a non-Minnesota born kid transferring to the Gophers from another high major? With so many guys moving around, you'd think that would change fairly soon. That said, their have been some very good transfers from the mid major level recently, so I just hope we find someone who can have an impact regardless of their previous school.

Very accurate take.


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Jigga, I don't want to inconvenience you, but do you have access to ISU game film for Lynch?

Doesn't seem to be a lot out there...

He's highlighted at halftime against his only match up against a Big10 team
Northwestern his freshmen year. Probably the video that best showcases him.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x-jlP5Y1R8A

Sophomore year against Wichita State with a bad back.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1sqclzJHks

He's the 4th player highlighted at the beginning of this game against Drake his freshmen year.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EUMw1lMVwFI

I believe he has gotten stronger and slightly more polished from his freshmen year, the redshirt season might be good for him.
 




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