Can anyone hold Lucia accountable?

beat bucky

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Another year, another fizzle. Not that it couldn't have been predicted given the Gophers last dozen years under Coach Lucia. A team that has embarrassingly underperformed in tournament games, losing by 5, 3 and 3 goals in the last four years. But don't expect the bobos at GPL or Basketball Norwood Jones to do anything about it. They seem satisfied being the big engine that couldn't. Whereas honest people can look at the issues that are becoming problems in the Gopher program...
LEGACIES- How many average kids does Lucia have to recruit from his home town to get a key to the city, like Miskovich and P White, and how many average Gopher nephews and sons like Bischoff, Lettieri, Gates, Pitlick and Ramsey to fill the alumni club?
MR HOCKEY- The last three MN Mr. Hockeys, Jaremko and Peterson (maybe the one Thunderhawk we should have gotten) and Besse, all slipped through the Gophers fingers. A troublesome trend.
GOALTENDERS- Not one goalie recruited by Lucia has gone on to the NHL and his preference for small, reaction-style netminders (anti-Dubnyks) has often meant a lot of net to shoot at and poor rebound control. With all his accolades, if Wilcox gets a shot, he'll find it even harder to stop Getzlaf and Ovechkin than Soucy.
RECRUITING LOSSES- While the Gophs are always losing some MN kids, the recent trend of losing ones they're wanting is becoming disturbing- Lee, Boeser, Malmquist, Hurley, Gersich, the Poehlings are examples. Lucia, it seems, is securing the U border about as well as Obama.
PERSONALITY- What is it with Minnesota and its flat-line somnambulent athletic figures? Mauer, Rubio, Dungy, TK, Lucia. Watching Lucia standing cross-armed and glassy-eyed behind the bench has to be as uninspiring as it looks.
COMPLACENCY- One has to wonder if Lucia hasn't gotten a little complacent in the job. He's got his 2 Nattys. He's got his record number of wins. He's got a clueless-about-hockey AD. Why sweat it?
ELITE FORWARDS- In sixteen years, with all the advantages he's had, Lucia has recruited how many elite forwards? Vanek, Kessel, and maybe Wheeler and Okposo and Bjugstad. Nick Saban recruits that many elite players every year. This is just not good enough.
EUROS- Though, given all the above, attracting some Finns and Swedes might be necessary, it also shows how compromised Gopher recruiting has become.
FUTURE- Other than defensemen, who are the next big impact players on Lucia's committed list?...(uncomfortable pause)... Tommy Novak could be very good, and Ryan Norman and Casey Middlestadt show some real promise, but that's three players and they're years away. Likely then, I guess it's more of the same.
So I'll ask again, can anyone hold Lucia accountable for the underachieving state of Minnesota Gopher hockey? Does anyone dare?
 

If George Gwozdecky can be held accountable at a lesser program certainly Lucia can. The Denver AD would have sent him packing long ago.
 

The administration could, but they won't. They'll let him continue with his aw-shucks attitude and his teams will undoubtedly continue on the same path. The fact that he actually won two titles more than a decade ago along with the long-argued parity that exists in college hockey will probably convince them he's doing a bang-up job. It's too bad they'll rely on those factors rather than notice with their own two eyes that the program isn't in a good place. But, it is what it is.
 

The unsettling part of this is not only are the Gophers no longer one of the elite programs in college hockey , they are no better than the fourth best program in the State of Hockey. Mankato,Duluth and St.Cloud have legitimately passed them by.
 

You make a handful of good points, some incredibly shaky ones, and a couple horrifyingly bad ones. This one in particular is just awful:

GOALTENDERS- Not one goalie recruited by Lucia has gone on to the NHL and his preference for small, reaction-style netminders (anti-Dubnyks) has often meant a lot of net to shoot at and poor rebound control. With all his accolades, if Wilcox gets a shot, he'll find it even harder to stop Getzlaf and Ovechkin than Soucy.

There aren't more than a handful of American goalies in the NHL. It is dominated by European net-minders. To hold this stat against Lucia is absolutely ridiculous.
 


The unsettling part of this is not only are the Gophers no longer one of the elite programs in college hockey , they are no better than the fourth best program in the State of Hockey. Mankato,Duluth and St.Cloud have legitimately passed them by.

We have a single bad year, and this is what it comes to?

Listen, I'm as disappointed in this year as the next fan, but this is absurd.
 

We have a single bad year, and this is what it comes to?

Listen, I'm as disappointed in this year as the next fan, but this is absurd.

Gophers were 2-6 against those 3 and between graduations and underclassmen going pro , it's hard to imagine any of them lose as much as the Gophers going into next season.
 

Gophers were 2-6 against those 3 and between graduations and underclassmen going pro , it's hard to imagine any of them lose as much as the Gophers going into next season.

Like I said, these are the results from a single down year. A year that happened to coincide with surprisingly good performances from Mankato, UMD, and SCSU. All I'm asking is that you give it a bit more time before declaring that the world has started spinning in reverse.
 

You make a handful of good points, some incredibly shaky ones, and a couple horrifyingly bad ones. This one in particular is just awful:



There aren't more than a handful of American goalies in the NHL. It is dominated by European net-minders. To hold this stat against Lucia is absolutely ridiculous.

Tim Thomas, Marty Turco, Dan Ellis, Ty Conklin, Jimmy Howard, Bob Mason, Cary Price, Alex Stalock, Dwayne Roloson, Ed Belfour, Corey Schneider, Mike Richter, Wade Dubliewicz, Mike Dunham, Robb Stauber, Ryan Miller, Rick DiPietro are college NHL goalies and that's a list off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more. But no Lucia recruits.
 



Here's the biggest issue with Lucia...He just isn't recruiting many elite players anymore. I'll give him his due for offensive defensemen. There he's had good success. But forwards and goalies not so much. The Gophers lost to the in-state teams because UMD, Mankato, SCSU (and surely ND) are more talented than the Gophers. You can make all the excuses about motivation you want. The results speak loudly and clearly.
Ask yourself this...how many Gopher forwards even have a chance to play at the next level? Kyle Rau maybe, because of his intangibles. And Hudson Fasching maybe, though with only 12 goals this year he may have to rely mostly on his NHL size. Two "potential" NHL forwards on the entire team!
And this years class...well, Lucia brought in Bristedt, a nice little playmaker but hardly an elite prospect. That is everything you need to know about why the Gophers are college hockey also-rans again.
 

Tim Thomas, Marty Turco, Dan Ellis, Ty Conklin, Jimmy Howard, Bob Mason, Cary Price, Alex Stalock, Dwayne Roloson, Ed Belfour, Corey Schneider, Mike Richter, Wade Dubliewicz, Mike Dunham, Robb Stauber, Ryan Miller, Rick DiPietro are college NHL goalies and that's a list off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more. But no Lucia recruits.

How many of those were years (and in some cases, decades) before Lucia's time here? I count about two of the goalies on your list that he would have even had the opportunity to recruit.

Like I said before, NHL goaltending is dominated by Europeans (and Canadians). The fact that you're holding Robb Stauber's professional career against Lucia is pretty telling of how ludicrous people can be with their expectations.

I'm not infatuated with Lucia. He's a good coach, but it very well may be time to consider moving on from him. But you do yourselves no favors by holding these ridiculous expectations.
 

Well, I wouldn't characterize high expectations as ridiculous, but that is the crux of the matter. Many Gopher hockey fans that grew up in the State of Hockey idolizing John Mariucci, Herb Brooks, the Michelettis, the Brotens, John Mayasich, Phil Housely, Johnny Pohl, the Minnesota Olympians, the HS Hockey Tournament, and our great roster of NHLers are just not satisfied with participation medals. Some obviously are.
 

Again though, the point of my question is...can anyone say to Don Lucia "You've got this thing going in the wrong direction." or is he like Captain Smith on the Titanic?
 



Well, I wouldn't characterize high expectations as ridiculous, but that is the crux of the matter. Many Gopher hockey fans that grew up in the State of Hockey idolizing John Mariucci, Herb Brooks, the Michelettis, the Brotens, John Mayasich, Phil Housely, Johnny Pohl, the Minnesota Olympians, the HS Hockey Tournament, and our great roster of NHLers are just not satisfied with participation medals. Some obviously are.

This is a really bizarre post. As we were the national runner up as recently as last season and you think we are settling for "participation medals", then it seems like in your opinion anything short of a national title is a "participation medal". If you want to settle for nothing less than a national title, that is fine. However, you then go on to nostalgically list some former Gopher greats who did not settle for participation medals. However, John Mariucci, Pat Micheletti, Aaron Broten, Paul Broten, and John Mayasich all never won a national title at the U. Doesn't that also make them losers who settle for participation medals? They have combined for less national titles than the Don has here.
 

Tradition rich athletic programs like Minnesota in hockey, Alabama in football, Kentucky in basketball, and Iowa in wrestling absolutely are judged on NCAA Championships. Whether you like it or not.
 

Tradition rich athletic programs like Minnesota in hockey, Alabama in football, Kentucky in basketball, and Iowa in wrestling absolutely are judged on NCAA Championships. Whether you like it or not.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be. I am saying if that is the case, why are you holding up the guys I mentioned (none of whom have any NCAA championships) as examples of successes and Lucia (2 NCAA championships) as a failure? If NCAA championships are the metric, that should be true for Mariucci, A. Broten, P. Broten, and Mayasich as well. If we are judging solely based on NCAA championships, then Lucia is the second most successful coach in the history of a tradition rich program.
 

Here's the biggest issue with Lucia...He just isn't recruiting many elite players anymore. I'll give him his due for offensive defensemen. There he's had good success. But forwards and goalies not so much. The Gophers lost to the in-state teams because UMD, Mankato, SCSU (and surely ND) are more talented than the Gophers. You can make all the excuses about motivation you want. The results speak loudly and clearly.
Ask yourself this...how many Gopher forwards even have a chance to play at the next level? Kyle Rau maybe, because of his intangibles. And Hudson Fasching maybe, though with only 12 goals this year he may have to rely mostly on his NHL size. Two "potential" NHL forwards on the entire team!
And this years class...well, Lucia brought in Bristedt, a nice little playmaker but hardly an elite prospect. That is everything you need to know about why the Gophers are college hockey also-rans again.

When he was recruiting the elite players, people were complaining because they kept going pro after 1-2 years and he'd have to start over. Now that he's recruiting guys who are staying 3-4 years whom other programs would be quite happy with, people are complaining again. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I suppose.
 

I'm not saying we shouldn't be. I am saying if that is the case, why are you holding up the guys I mentioned (none of whom have any NCAA championships) as examples of successes and Lucia (2 NCAA championships) as a failure? If NCAA championships are the metric, that should be true for Mariucci, A. Broten, P. Broten, and Mayasich as well. If we are judging solely based on NCAA championships, then Lucia is the second most successful coach in the history of a tradition rich program.

Well forget titles then and instead talk lackluster performance in important games. That's been going on here for years and is as much the Gopher identity as anything else. After that talk about offensive d-men. Way too many of them have made us physically soft as a program. That also has become an identifying characteristic of Gopher hockey. We know how to play with the puck, but are frail and ineffective without it.
 

Well forget titles then and instead talk lackluster performance in important games. That's been going on here for years and is as much the Gopher identity as anything else. After that talk about offensive d-men. Way too many of them have made us physically soft as a program. That also has become an identifying characteristic of Gopher hockey. We know how to play with the puck, but are frail and ineffective without it.

We can forget titles and talk about all of that, but I was responding to someone who claimed it was all about titles and then in the next breath asserted that Lucia was inferior to a bunch of people who had no titles.

I don't disagree with you about offensive defensemen. That has been a major complaint of mine for years with Lucia, that he puts too many defensemen out there for whom playing in their own zone is a big weakness. I actually don't particularly like Lucia as a coach, most of his hockey philosophies are different from mine. After missing the tournament three years straight, I was all for firing him. I just think that based on his recent performance, a firing would not be justifiable. You want to talk about big games? We went from being a bubble team who might miss the tournament to rattling off four straight to sweep our last regular season series and win the BTT to lock up a tournament spot which was not guaranteed heading into the last game. We have won five of our nine NCAA tournament games in the last four years, including a national semifinal. I would say that those qualify as big games. I was definitely upset by the showing we gave in the NCAA tournament, and Lucia deserves a good part of the blame for that. If we miss the tournament next year, I'd probably be willing to at least entertain the notion of firing Lucia.
 

Don't bother arguing maxwellsmart, I've seen this reaction on GPL for five years. With the cult of personality crowd, results just don't matter.
Case in point, I make a list of the great people that have BUILT this program to where it is, and I get some non sequitur about how I'm comparing their title numbers. They just can't imagine this hockey program without "the leader". But many can and do.
 

Don't bother arguing maxwellsmart, I've seen this reaction on GPL for five years. With the cult of personality crowd, results just don't matter.
Case in point, I make a list of the great people that have BUILT this program to where it is, and I get some non sequitur about how I'm comparing their title numbers. They just can't imagine this hockey program without "the leader". But many can and do.

Non-sequitur? You discounted Lucia taking this team to the national title game last year as a "participation medal" because for a program like Minnesota, national titles should be all that matter. And then you made a list of great Gophers, many of whom did not win national titles. But, since apparently you think I am mischaracterizing your positions, maybe you can help me out with a straight yes or no answer: should the performance of the Gopher hockey program be evaluated strictly on the basis of national titles?

If the answer is yes, then Lucia is the second most successful Gopher coach ever, behind only Herb Brooks. If not, then you should not totally dismiss two Frozen Fours, a trip to the national title game, and four NCAA tournament bids in the last four years.
 

Alright, we disagree on whether Lucia is "currently" getting the job done.
So let's make my question more hypothetical...If the Gophers finish third in the BIG next year, don't make the NCAA tournament, and watch UMD and ND and SCSU advance again. Then, would Norwood Teague do anything about Lucia?
What exactly are this AD's minimum expectations for Gopher hockey? And do they match those of the long-time, premium-paying fans?
 

Alright, we disagree on whether Lucia is "currently" getting the job done.
So let's make my question more hypothetical...If the Gophers finish third in the BIG next year, don't make the NCAA tournament, and watch UMD and ND and SCSU advance again. Then, would Norwood Teague do anything about Lucia?
What exactly are this AD's minimum expectations for Gopher hockey? And do they match those of the long-time, premium-paying fans?

You never answered my question. As for your questions, I have no idea what Teague would do in your hypothetical, what his minimum expectations are, or what those of the collective fanbase are.

What I can tell you is my thoughts if the hypothetical you presented comes to pass. If we do finish third in the B1G and miss the NCAA (which would be a worse finish than he has seen in any of his last four seasons), then I would be very upset. I would likely not advocate for his termination at that point, as I have seen him right the ship to take a non-tournament team to a Frozen Four the following season. I think that winning two national championships and taking a team to five Frozen Fours is showing enough that I would be curious to see if he can bounce back again. However, at that point, I also would no longer feel like other people advocating for firing him are behaving irrationally. Missing the tournament is a horrendous year for a program with the advantages that the Gophers enjoy. Certainly (especially as it happened three years in a row within the last seven years), you could make a fair argument that missing the tournament is a fireable offense. Like I said, I would disagree, and want to see if the next year took us on a positive or negative trajectory.

If you want me on record for when I think it would be a good idea to fire Lucia, then I will say that if we miss the tournament next year, and the following year is a worse performance than next year, then I think he should be fired. Feel free to bookmark this, hold me to it, whatever you want. However, so long as winning three NCAA tournament games en route to an appearance in the national title game is a more recent occurrence than missing the tournament, I think that firing him is a pretty bad idea. Tough to recruit great coaches when they know they will face termination one year after making the championship game if they "merely" make the first round.
 

Don't bother arguing maxwellsmart, I've seen this reaction on GPL for five years. With the cult of personality crowd, results just don't matter.
Case in point, I make a list of the great people that have BUILT this program to where it is, and I get some non sequitur about how I'm comparing their title numbers. They just can't imagine this hockey program without "the leader". But many can and do.

Huh? Bleeds is the one who's saying that results DO matter.
 

Here's the danger...
Remember when Gopher football was a tradition rich, championship program? Probably not, because a generation of fans stood quietly by while the program did a slow slide from expectation of championships to acceptance of competitiveness to resignation as a non-factor. Lucia's last 12 years have put the hockey program on the same trajectory. To the point where not even hard-core Gopher hockey fans seem to expect us to win an NCAA championship.
This is how a hockey empire falls, from within. When no one believes in its greatness anymore.
 

Tradition rich athletic programs like Minnesota in hockey, Alabama in football, Kentucky in basketball, and Iowa in wrestling absolutely are judged on NCAA Championships. Whether you like it or not.


True, and Lucia is the winningest coach in MN history and has 2 NCAA Titles which is 2 more that the Wooger ever gave us. You guys just don't remember what bad hockey looked like. It's hard to win championships. We're not the only team to underachieve. Look at Kentucky tonight in basketball. Look at Mankato St, who was #1 overall in hockey playoffs and choked.
 





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