Newly released video shows full encounter between Nelson and Kolstad

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This doesn't change my opinion of Nelson's behavior (totally inexcusable). At the same time, Kolstad is a sack of crap. Quite frankly, after seeing the video, I don't feel very sorry for Kolstad. Certainly, his injuries are a hefty punishment for his actions. But, Kolstad sucker punching a guy from behind like that could have easily knocked him to the pavement hard enough to suffer the same kind of injuries Kolstad is suffering from now. You play with the bull, you get the horns, and it looks like Kolstad is reaping what he sowed. In all honesty, Kolstad should be prosecuted too.
 


Ski U Master said:
You forgot your sarcasm mark (/s)
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When I first saw this video I commented about how it totally changed my outlook of what happened (must be a different thread). A lot of things have been discussed about that video, and I won't go into them here. But one major point that appears to be have been missed is that the verbal description of the situation made it sound like Nelson gave Kolstad an extremely violent, powerful kick to the head. The only true part of that, however, is the part about a kick to the head. It certainly was no running wind-up soccer kick.

The lack of kicking energy exerted by Nelson in that video appeared to me like something that would certainly hurt the victim (for a short while), but nothing that should leave a permanent brain injury. It seems Kolstad's injury was caused by his head hitting the unforgiving pavement after being knocked out. (Related side note: tragically, my aunt passed at 47 from brain trauma from a minor motorcycle accident where she had no major injuries other than hitting her uncovered head on the unforgiving pavement (no helmet).) That's where almost all of the violent energy to the head was displayed in that video. Unless Nelson was wearing steel toed shoes, IMO he should charged with some form of low-degree assault (as should Kolstad and the other man) and should not be in jail.

This was an extremely unfortunate, unlucky incident for all 3 men involved.
 

phipho said:
While the video made me think less of Kolstad it doesn't make me think any better of Nelson. Kicking somebody in the head while he is lying on the ground is beyond pathetic.
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I agree.

A heck of a lot of cowardly, stupid stuff in that eight seconds.
 

Dean S said:
Psychology is full of studies on human behavior that would convince you that most people would shoot a Jew without hesitation if given an order from an authority figure. Additionally, people will kill another human being when told to even though they have never met and never bothered one another. We call that soldiering. Then, of course, get a little drunk and tired and neurochemicals that calm are wiped away and replaced by epinephrine when provoked. This then overrides executive function which is already diminished by fatigue and booze. Add in the fact that autonomic fight response happened before conscious thought over rode the fight response. The sub conscious response was what happened. The fact that Nelson pulled away after getting past the automatic response shows that he cared not to continue and did not intend to harm Kolstad. I think he showed incredible restraint after being hit from behind. Of course, it helped that he was being restrained a little by calmer bystanders.

The fact that Kolstad became knocked unconscious and had serious injuries is incidental. The central story is about how much aggression occurred and how proportional it was to each participant. Kolstad was lucky Nelson didn't strike his head and be on the receiving end of this public assault.
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I think this might be the first time I've ever agreed with one of your posts, but I agree with you 100%.
Put all 3 on probation, do some community service. They are not threats to society. They all 3 made dumb, rash, (presumably) drunken decisions that they are all very unlikely to ever get involved in again.
 


everybody knows my name said:
If Nelson's behavior is inexcusable, then it doesn't matter whether he was provoked. Provocation is an excuse.

That's where this ends for me. Nelson did something inexcusable and regardless of Kolstad's prior behavior, it remains inexcusable to kick a man in the head when he's on the ground.
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I am in no way trying to imply that Nelson is blameless or doesn't deserve to be punished for his actions. I just think Kolstad also deserves to be punished for the role he played in things. He shouldn't get a free pass just because he got injured and people feel sorry for him. He attacked Nelson first from behind, he deserves to be charged with some form of assault.
 

I'm pretty sure Perry Mason could find a fourth person to confess to the whole affair, while everybody else goes out to dinner.
 

Dean S said:
I would defer to your broader knowledge. Wouldn't it go down like this. The body receives a blow and the ear is sending a massive signal that the body is upset. The interneurons send an emergency signal down to the adrenal gland to prepare for emergency action. The adrenal glands respond with a flood of epinephrine to flood the system with glucose from the liver, jump the heart rate, expand the airways, and constrict all blood vessels incase of injury. The rush of the autonomic nervous system kicks into high gear and is already calculating out motor response in how to take down the attacker. The motor neurons are rehearsing various scenarios and as the eyes sweep across Kolstad, the autonomic nervous system calculates that a kick to the head is the best course of action. Nelson is still not consciously thinking about poor, poor Kolstad on the ground, which is about 0.3 seconds away from coming into focus. The kick is away, the attempt at moral reasoning is coming into focus, the blow lands and suddenly regret appears in the mind as the confusion between the automatic system comes into conflict with all the lessons of Sunday school and mom and dad telling Phil to not get into fights over frivolous matters. So, he withdraws from the immediate vicinity and is wrestling to regain control after the flood of bodily response to the attack. He looks into the face of his friend who is pleading with him to not do anything else. Nelson looks over at the fallen Kolstad and a lifetime of fear now overwhelms him.

And yet, the law of the land states that he should be a good boy and retreat, ignoring all science on the subject of a dual track mind and how primitive survival mechanisms can make clear headed reasonable thinking a blackout moment. No, beer didn't do this to Phil Nelson. Millions of years of survival school and selective trait acquisition successfully led him to do what our ancestral genetic code told him to do. Kick first, ask questions later.

All in all, we will construct a legal theory of his guilt that ignores any scientific explanation of what happened in those brief seconds and we will tell ourselves that because Kolstad received terrible injuries to his mind that Phil Nelson should be held in prison to waste away even though we all know that Phil has already learned the terrible lesson not to hang out at bars late at night with your girl friend and that more calm social settings may be more suitable for a long and happy life.

I guarantee to everyone that Phil Nelson is not a social threat to humanity. Not then. Not now. Simply because we hire idiot legislators, drug addled Governors, and ego maniacal lawyers to prosecute for the perceived harms in our lives, doesn't make all of this okay to waste all these lives for some emotional pabulum. What Nelson and Kolstad need is some reconciliation and responsibility taken by both sides. Phil may have to own up to some economic damages for years to come. Kolstad needs to work on rehabilitation and to also stay away from the bar scene.

The bottom line suggests there is no justice that can possibly restore both men to being whole again. Kolstad may battle the injury for a lifetime. Nelson will have his superlative reputation taken away as so many have adopted him as an evil monster totally out of control. What good do these ideas of justice have for any of us? Drop the stones from your hands folks. Lend a helping hand to these people. They need our support.
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You are a man I'd like to know.
 

Dean,

What do you do in Northfield, other than sit at Froggy Bottoms and craft your Gopherhole prose?
 



Costa Rican Gopher said:
For a guy who dishes it out, you sure don't take it very well. :)

My "agenda" & "tactics"? Oh my, you are so dramatic. What I said from the beginning was that it took two to tango & that Nelson's lawyers will make a compelling case that Nelson was attacked from behind by the larger man, got floored, got back to his feet & institutionally charged. That he wasn't thinking straight because of blow to the head he suffered & didn't realize Kolstad was already injured. Turns out I was absolutely right.
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You were unequivocally right from the get go. I think a lot of posters simply have not been around many fights in their lives.... Weird how bad the reaction was back when the story broke; now it seems quite different. I'm curious to know what the heck everyone else thought went down; the video seems to read exactly like the story.... it pretty much confirms that this fight was as benign as they get, save for the horribly bad luck for Kolstad.

My guess is in reality, people have no idea what to think in that situation, part of them thinks it's right, part of them thinks it's wrong. They jump on here and fall all over themselves trying to showcase their moral superiority. The fawned outrage was spectacular. Had all the elements of a mob. The best part is when the video does come out, and it shows this bunch they were incorrectly biased, the human need for consistency rears it's ugly head.... It's rather ironic; the same human flaw in the brain, that propels Nelson to kick man on the ground, will not allow some posters, to reexamine their position. Weird how that works.
 

On a side note: Nelson does not appear to have a glass jaw. How in the hell did he get up that fast from such a brutal punch
 


atsgopher said:
My guess is in reality, people have no idea what to think in that situation, part of them thinks it's right, part of them thinks it's wrong. They jump on here and fall all over themselves trying to showcase their moral superiority. The fawned outrage was spectacular. Had all the elements of a mob. The best part is when the video does come out, and it shows this bunch they were incorrectly biased, the human need for consistency rears it's ugly head.... It's rather ironic; the same human flaw in the brain, that propels Nelson to kick man on the ground, will not allow some posters, to reexamine their position. Weird how that works.
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Or maybe. Just maybe. "Right & Wrong" is subjective in a case like this. Maybe. Just maybe.
 



maxwellsmart said:
Hmmm. A blindside shot, a second blindside shot and a kick to the head of a defenseless, prostrate person. Raises more questions than provides answers. One bothersome thought: Seems all three have developed effective methods of striking someone unprepared to offer a defense. Ugly all the way around.
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Its how young people fight these days. These three are cowards at best. One has a life sentence and the other two will get prison and a record. Brainless idiots.
 

My opinion is that this should never have happened but when drinking is involved and late at night bad things happen. I'm sure this happens all over in college towns but nothing is reported due to the nature of the injury and high profile kids. Feel bad for all the families involved. I hope Phillip gets another chance after a bad choice but hopefully he. An learn from this and get another chance.
 

Considering this is being handled by the same bungling Police Department and county attorneys that handled the Coach Todd Hoffner case. It's going to be very hard to predict the final outcome.
 

Good point and imagine Hoffmer still working with the guys that fired him
 

gopherjay said:
Its how young people fight these days. These three are cowards at best. One has a life sentence and the other two will get prison and a record. Brainless idiots.
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Well of course you're right, all three deserve criminal penalties. We'll see, but in the meantime I remain totally disturbed by what you correctly identify as cowardice that seems instinctive. Watch your backs folks.
 

phipho said:
While the video made me think less of Kolstad it doesn't make me think any better of Nelson. Kicking somebody in the head while he is lying on the ground is beyond pathetic.
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I assume phipho agrees punching someone from behind is pathetic.
 

1. Nelson was no threat to Kolstad standing with his back turned. Kolstad's punch was definitely a sucker punch from behind and instigated the fight. It was also more violent than earlier disclosed. It was no less violent than the punch delivered on him and it easily could have been Nelson hitting his head on the pavement.

2. Kolstad was definitely unconscious before he hit the ground and he hit it hard. Another sucker punch.

3. It all happened really fast.

4. I haven't been in a fight in 30 years and I'm not sure if I wouldn't get up looking to fight just like Nelson.

5. Kicking a guy when he is down is a shi!!y thing to do.

6. None of this happens if Kolstad doesn't sucker punch a guy from behind. The damage seems to have been done by the punch and hitting the pavement. I'm guessing Nelson gets a misdemeanor charge for fighting and gets on with his life and always wonders what might have been.
 

drinks at Northpoint said:
1. Nelson was no threat to Kolstad standing with his back turned. Kolstad's punch was definitely a sucker punch from behind and instigated the fight. It was also more violent than earlier disclosed. It was no less violent than the punch delivered on him and it easily could have been Nelson hitting his head on the pavement.

2. Kolstad was definitely unconscious before he hit the ground and he hit it hard. Another sucker punch.

3. It all happened really fast.

4. I haven't been in a fight in 30 years and I'm not sure if I wouldn't get up looking to fight just like Nelson.

5. Kicking a guy when he is down is a shi!!y thing to do.

6. None of this happens if Kolstad doesn't sucker punch a guy from behind. The damage seems to have been done by the punch and hitting the pavement. I'm guessing Nelson gets a misdemeanor charge for fighting and gets on with his life and always wonders what might have been.
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And Kolstad had a lot more time to think about the punch he threw than Nelson did with his kick.
 

Dean S said:
I would defer to your broader knowledge. Wouldn't it go down like this. The body receives a blow and the ear is sending a massive signal that the body is upset. The interneurons send an emergency signal down to the adrenal gland to prepare for emergency action. The adrenal glands respond with a flood of epinephrine to flood the system with glucose from the liver, jump the heart rate, expand the airways, and constrict all blood vessels incase of injury. The rush of the autonomic nervous system kicks into high gear and is already calculating out motor response in how to take down the attacker. The motor neurons are rehearsing various scenarios and as the eyes sweep across Kolstad, the autonomic nervous system calculates that a kick to the head is the best course of action. Nelson is still not consciously thinking about poor, poor Kolstad on the ground, which is about 0.3 seconds away from coming into focus. The kick is away, the attempt at moral reasoning is coming into focus, the blow lands and suddenly regret appears in the mind as the confusion between the automatic system comes into conflict with all the lessons of Sunday school and mom and dad telling Phil to not get into fights over frivolous matters. So, he withdraws from the immediate vicinity and is wrestling to regain control after the flood of bodily response to the attack. He looks into the face of his friend who is pleading with him to not do anything else. Nelson looks over at the fallen Kolstad and a lifetime of fear now overwhelms him.

And yet, the law of the land states that he should be a good boy and retreat, ignoring all science on the subject of a dual track mind and how primitive survival mechanisms can make clear headed reasonable thinking a blackout moment. No, beer didn't do this to Phil Nelson. Millions of years of survival school and selective trait acquisition successfully led him to do what our ancestral genetic code told him to do. Kick first, ask questions later.

All in all, we will construct a legal theory of his guilt that ignores any scientific explanation of what happened in those brief seconds and we will tell ourselves that because Kolstad received terrible injuries to his mind that Phil Nelson should be held in prison to waste away even though we all know that Phil has already learned the terrible lesson not to hang out at bars late at night with your girl friend and that more calm social settings may be more suitable for a long and happy life.

I guarantee to everyone that Phil Nelson is not a social threat to humanity. Not then. Not now. Simply because we hire idiot legislators, drug addled Governors, and ego maniacal lawyers to prosecute for the perceived harms in our lives, doesn't make all of this okay to waste all these lives for some emotional pabulum. What Nelson and Kolstad need is some reconciliation and responsibility taken by both sides. Phil may have to own up to some economic damages for years to come. Kolstad needs to work on rehabilitation and to also stay away from the bar scene.

The bottom line suggests there is no justice that can possibly restore both men to being whole again. Kolstad may battle the injury for a lifetime. Nelson will have his superlative reputation taken away as so many have adopted him as an evil monster totally out of control. What good do these ideas of justice have for any of us? Drop the stones from your hands folks. Lend a helping hand to these people. They need our support.
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Interesting Utilitarian argument, Dean. You've managed to rationalize the events down to a point where there is no moral cause or effect thus making the entire event relative. There are no moral responsibilities because, in your scenario, Phillip Nelson was incapable of making a moral decision in that short amount of time.
Does the idea that Nelson "is not a social threat to humanity" thus make his actions inconsequential? Is justice served by such an argument?

Where I am in agreement with you is in the proposal that Restorative Justice be sought for all people involved. Certainly that route would be more healthy for all and less expensive for society. The question is whether our judicial system has any protocol set in place for Restorative Justice to take place.
 

drinks at Northpoint said:
1. Nelson was no threat to Kolstad standing with his back turned. Kolstad's punch was definitely a sucker punch from behind and instigated the fight. It was also more violent than earlier disclosed. It was no less violent than the punch delivered on him and it easily could have been Nelson hitting his head on the pavement.

2. Kolstad was definitely unconscious before he hit the ground and he hit it hard. Another sucker punch.

3. It all happened really fast.

4. I haven't been in a fight in 30 years and I'm not sure if I wouldn't get up looking to fight just like Nelson.

5. Kicking a guy when he is down is a shi!!y thing to do.

6. None of this happens if Nelson doesn't go after Kolstad inside the bar for talking to his girl after mistaking him for the bouncer. Then Kolstad doesn't sucker punch a guy from behind. The damage seems to have been done by the punch and hitting the pavement. I'm guessing Nelson gets a misdemeanor charge for fighting and gets on with his life and always wonders what might have been.
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All true except for the missing info, which seems to be forgotten about often in this thread.
 

atsgopher said:
You were unequivocally right from the get go. I think a lot of posters simply have not been around many fights in their lives.... Weird how bad the reaction was back when the story broke; now it seems quite different. I'm curious to know what the heck everyone else thought went down; the video seems to read exactly like the story.... it pretty much confirms that this fight was as benign as they get, save for the horribly bad luck for Kolstad.

My guess is in reality, people have no idea what to think in that situation, part of them thinks it's right, part of them thinks it's wrong. They jump on here and fall all over themselves trying to showcase their moral superiority. The fawned outrage was spectacular. Had all the elements of a mob. The best part is when the video does come out, and it shows this bunch they were incorrectly biased, the human need for consistency rears it's ugly head.... It's rather ironic; the same human flaw in the brain, that propels Nelson to kick man on the ground, will not allow some posters, to reexamine their position. Weird how that works.
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Been around more such fights involving drunks than I wish I had, plus a few more in a more controlled setting playing hockey. I've thrown punches I wish I could have back, but never to someone on the ground and never to someone who wasn't facing me.

Either was, as to the bold I disagree. When the story initially broke, I don't remember if this was from a police report, the criminal complaint, or a news article, but the prevailing version initially seemed to be that Kolstad "shoved" Nelson from behind. Now that we see a video, if that was a "shove", then Nelson "nudged" Kolstad with his foot.
 

Iceland12 said:
All true except for the missing info, which seems to be forgotten about often in this thread.
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I think its fair to leave that part out. There are jackasses in life all of the time who say stupid stuff, sometimes they even say it loudly, angrily, and obscenely. The single biggest escalation in pretty much any fight is the person who takes it from verbal to physical. In my opinion, when we are talking about two blindside sucker punches to the head and a kick while someone is down, an argument in a bar is pretty inconsequential.

It would be like if I were working as a waiter and someone was upset with my service (maybe I screwed up his order) and they said something rude to me on the way out like "learn to do your job jackass." If I run up from behind and drill them in the back of the head, i don't think the discussion would be "well, this could have been avoided if the guy hadn't have been mean to me" or "well, this could have been avoided if I had done my job and gotten his order right." While it would be true to say that either of those things likely would have prevented the episode, such benign disagreements are so wildly insufficient to justify what happened next that they don't belong in the discussion.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
I think its fair to leave that part out. There are jackasses in life all of the time who say stupid stuff, sometimes they even say it loudly, angrily, and obscenely. The single biggest escalation in pretty much any fight is the person who takes it from verbal to physical. In my opinion, when we are talking about two blindside sucker punches to the head and a kick while someone is down, an argument in a bar is pretty inconsequential.

It would be like if I were working as a waiter and someone was upset with my service (maybe I screwed up his order) and they said something rude to me on the way out like "learn to do your job jackass." If I run up from behind and drill them in the back of the head, i don't think the discussion would be "well, this could have been avoided if the guy hadn't have been mean to me" or "well, this could have been avoided if I had done my job and gotten his order right." While it would be true to say that either of those things likely would have prevented the episode, such benign disagreements are so wildly insufficient to justify what happened next that they don't belong in the discussion.
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" "Why Phil was minding his own business, walking a group of blind orphans across the street when this monster came flying at him from behind to do him bodily harm!"

No shat, and it's hard to believe anybody could be so naive as to think that's what happened.

If you actually think your example was analogous there is no reason in discussing it. If you think that saying it started with the sucker punch that's just factually wrong. It would only come into play if someone was trying to make Nelson an innocent victim of an unprovoked attack. But all kinds of people around here are commenting about something they never saw including myself.

"6. None of this happens if Nelson doesn't go after Kolstad inside the bar for talking to his girl after mistaking him for the bouncer. Then Kolstad doesn't sucker punch a guy from behind. The damage seems to have been done by the punch and hitting the pavement. I'm guessing Nelson gets a misdemeanor charge for fighting and gets on with his life and always wonders what might have been"

That made you want to re-write what happened?
 

Iceland12 said:


" "Why Phil was minding his own business, walking a group of blind orphans across the street when this monster came flying at him from behind to do him bodily harm!"

No shat, and it's hard to believe anybody could be so naive as to think that's what happened.

If you actually think your example was analogous there is no reason in discussing it. If you think that saying it started with the sucker punch that's just factually wrong. It would only come into play if someone was trying to make Nelson an innocent victim of an unprovoked attack. But all kinds of people around here are commenting about something they never saw including myself.

"6. None of this happens if Nelson doesn't go after Kolstad inside the bar for talking to his girl after mistaking him for the bouncer. Then Kolstad doesn't sucker punch a guy from behind. The damage seems to have been done by the punch and hitting the pavement. I'm guessing Nelson gets a misdemeanor charge for fighting and gets on with his life and always wonders what might have been"

That made you want to re-write what happened?
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I am no Nelson defender through any of this, and I don't think anything I have said is too sympathetic to him. Nor do I think I ever doubted (or suggested) that Nelson didn't act like a drunk asshole in the bar. My main point is that the the start of the any real incident was the escalation from drunken idiots arguing to a physical assault. If the story starts and ends with Nelson yelling at Kolstad to stay away from his girlfriend in the bar, I doubt this story is even the most noteworthy thing that happened in that bar on that night. My overall argument that I was trying to make is that in pretty much any altercation I believe the single biggest point of escalation is the person who first physically attacks the other.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
I am no Nelson defender through any of this, and I don't think anything I have said is too sympathetic to him. Nor do I think I ever doubted (or suggested) that Nelson didn't act like a drunk asshole in the bar. My main point is that the the start of the any real incident was the escalation from drunken idiots arguing to a physical assault. If the story starts and ends with Nelson yelling at Kolstad to stay away from his girlfriend in the bar, I doubt this story is even the most noteworthy thing that happened in that bar on that night. My overall argument that I was trying to make is that in pretty much any altercation I believe the single biggest point of escalation is the person who first physically attacks the other.
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Fair enough. We just disagree on what started this one.
 

Iceland12 said:
Fair enough. We just disagree on what started this one.
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I see two separate events entirely. I am not sure how pointing out they had an argument/episode of posturing in the bar is useful besides emphasizing there was a separation in time and space between that encounter and the cheap shot Kolstad threw at Nelson. You seem intent on placing blame on Nelson for the entire event which in my opinion would never have occurred if it wasn't for the running haymaker Kolstad hit Nelson with.
 


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