FSN's Tyler Mason: Wouldn't be surprised if QB position is open competition in spring

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Gopher028 said:
So, does anyone miss Max Shortell as much as I do?

And don't start with, he doesn't fit into this offensive system
as Leidner does? This offense is run or play action pass, hardly call
for any Leidner runs anymore and he slides or runs out of bounds the
moment he thinks he might be hit, yeah..... Max could do that.

Just think, Max to Maxx....all day long.
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I know I often find myself lamenting the loss of guys who don't start at I-AA schools.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I know I often find myself lamenting the loss of guys who don't start at I-AA schools.
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Shortell would not do well here he's a slower version of Leidner but just because a kid wears a D1 uniform doesn't mean he's teh man by comparison. Does anyone on here legitimately think that if Leidner was at Augustana right now that he'd be the starter ahead of his fellow RS Soph Lakeville product Trey Heid? Leidner caught lightning in a bottle and got a Gophers offer. Leidner and Heid played obviously in the same conference with comparable talent around them and Heid ended up as Metro Player of the Year and conference MVP as a senior, but lacked some size and arm strength so didn't garner big time offers. He's not a B1G QB either, but he'd beat Mitch out if both with right now at Augustana. Our guy as he's played to date is a middling college QB D1, 1-AA or D2. He has the size and arm talent to be more than that, but I don't think he's got "it" which is pretty darn important for a QB and the psuedo leader of our squad. Dead horse beaten, I hope he proves me dead wrong over the next five games.
 

This is stupid. Junior QBs who won a Big Ten title and were named MVP of the Peach Bowl automatically start the next year.
 

Indi1006 said:
Shortell would not do well here he's a slower version of Leidner but just because a kid wears a D1 uniform doesn't mean he's teh man by comparison. Does anyone on here legitimately think that if Leidner was at Augustana right now that he'd be the starter ahead of his fellow RS Soph Lakeville product Trey Heid? Leidner caught lightning in a bottle and got a Gophers offer. Leidner and Heid played obviously in the same conference with comparable talent around them and Heid ended up as Metro Player of the Year and conference MVP as a senior, but lacked some size and arm strength so didn't garner big time offers. He's not a B1G QB either, but he'd beat Mitch out if both with right now at Augustana. Our guy as he's played to date is a middling college QB D1, 1-AA or D2. He has the size and arm talent to be more than that, but I don't think he's got "it" which is pretty darn important for a QB and the psuedo leader of our squad. Dead horse beaten, I hope he proves me dead wrong over the next five games.
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Is your name George Whitfield Jr.?
 



bleedsmaroonandgold said:
If you are in a major conference, and your quarterback is 116th out of 126 in FBS completion percentage, I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that the coaches would at least look at the other options in spring camp. Its not like Mason said Perra should start coming out of the bye week or Leidner will never be good or anything of that nature.
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It is more than a QB issue. Develop the kids you have! This is the way Grover has decided to develope his YOUNG QB. remember Mitch is a RS Soph with limited experience. and on a team that demands to run the ball first. It took most of last year and most of the non conference schedule to establish that we are a running team. Once we get around to throwing the ball more they expect everything to work? timing is off and the poor QB hasn't been called upon to read a DB coverage in a long time.

does not matter who we put in until the staff decides to use the full playbook consistently.
 

Gopher028 said:
So, does anyone miss Max Shortell as much as I do?

And don't start with, he doesn't fit into this offensive system
as Leidner does? This offense is run or play action pass, hardly call
for any Leidner runs anymore and he slides or runs out of bounds the
moment he thinks he might be hit, yeah..... Max could do that.

Just think, Max to Maxx....all day long.
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Leidner is far superior to Shortell in what he can do to put pressure on defenses, and this team believes in him.
 

killme said:
Leidner is far superior to Shortell in what he can do to put pressure on defenses, and this team believes in him.
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Mmmmkay, Shortell nearly beat USC at the Coli.... Leidner can't even beat a really bad Illinois team at Champagne with A LOT more weapons than
max did back in 2011, going 12/30 and missing wide open receivers as if he had duct tape over his eyes.. so yeah.
 

Gopher028 said:
Mmmmkay, Shortell nearly beat USC at the Coli.... Leidner can't even beat a really bad Illinois team at Champagne with A LOT more weapons than
max did back in 2011, going 12/30 and missing wide open receivers as if he had duct tape over his eyes.. so yeah.
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Guess only one of us watched all the games Shortell played and all played by Mitch. Comparing Shortell's "best" against ML7 not beating Illinois seems a pretty ridiculous argument, like ones I had when my kids were little. Seems body of work might be considered. Have you read any of the team accomplishments under Mitch? Now, let's examine those on Shortell's resume. Throwing the Illinois loss all on Mitch is what one might expect from a fan who doesn't really follow football.
 



I really want to agree with you...

killme said:
Competition is good, especially internally. As the program evolves, we've witnessed greater contributions from the latest classes. But, the thing about ML7 that seems to get overlooked is the eye test. There's a large group who put too much emphasis on where he ranks nationally. He's missing passes, making some bad decisions, and statistically not impressive. But, it looks to me like he has been making progress all season, is gaining in confidence, and has demonstrated the ability to make some very good deep throws. Because of where we came from, we weren't able to land that 5-star guy, so we have to find QBs with desirable attributes and develop them. I'm excited to see where Mitch is at this time next year.
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but for me the eye test is this: Leidner has nearly regained his freshman year form after regressing to start his sophomore year.
But as a freshman he ran the ball. That was his greatest asset. Either by injury or coaching instructions that aspect is no longer available to Mitch. (Purdue one exception) Yes he throws some beautiful passes but as you mentioned he throws some dreadful balls and he makes some really bad decisions too.

As a freshman he ran for 151 yards versus San Jose St. He ran for 66 and passed for 145 at Michigan on 14 of 21 passing last year as a freshman. In the bowl versus Syracuse he passed for 205 yards.
Now, yes he passed for 240 yards but against an Illinois defense giving you the pass. And he was 12 for 30 doing so.
We don't throw passes behind the line of scrimmage or screens or to backs. I'm guessing that is because we don't do it well in practice.
So for me the eye test is what scares me. I don't see the improvement or even the freshman swagger he had...better than the start of this season but not better than last year.
 


Unless we have the next Andrew Luck playing for us of course the QB position should be open for competition. Every position should be open for competition in spring ball. Think how stagnant a team would get if starters didn't need to keep improving to keep their job. Every player should improve every year. None of them should have reached their peak ability by freshman year of college. Just like every other coaching staff in the country Coach Kill and Co. are playing the best players at their position every week. I like a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy but there is no conspiracy in college football. The best players play (unless they break the rules and have to sit)
 

Gopher028 said:
Mmmmkay, Shortell nearly beat USC at the Coli.... Leidner can't even beat a really bad Illinois team at Champagne with A LOT more weapons than
max did back in 2011, going 12/30 and missing wide open receivers as if he had duct tape over his eyes.. so yeah.
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Please explain to me how Shortell nearly beat USC? Was it by throwing 7-13 with a pick for 98 yards? Getting picked off deep in MN territory during the game winning drive? They were in that game because the defense shut out USC after getting smoked in the first half; not because of Max Shortell.
 



Gopher028 said:
Mmmmkay, Shortell nearly beat USC at the Coli.... Leidner can't even beat a really bad Illinois team at Champagne with A LOT more weapons than
max did back in 2011, going 12/30 and missing wide open receivers as if he had duct tape over his eyes.. so yeah.
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Shortell also went just 2 of 7 against New Mexico St. a few years ago.

It's the same thing that always happens. The talent and achievements (or lack of) of the player who hasn't been around for awhile is always exaggerated.
 

Indi1006 said:
Shortell would not do well here he's a slower version of Leidner but just because a kid wears a D1 uniform doesn't mean he's teh man by comparison. Does anyone on here legitimately think that if Leidner was at Augustana right now that he'd be the starter ahead of his fellow RS Soph Lakeville product Trey Heid? Leidner caught lightning in a bottle and got a Gophers offer. Leidner and Heid played obviously in the same conference with comparable talent around them and Heid ended up as Metro Player of the Year and conference MVP as a senior, but lacked some size and arm strength so didn't garner big time offers. He's not a B1G QB either, but he'd beat Mitch out if both with right now at Augustana. Our guy as he's played to date is a middling college QB D1, 1-AA or D2. He has the size and arm talent to be more than that, but I don't think he's got "it" which is pretty darn important for a QB and the psuedo leader of our squad. Dead horse beaten, I hope he proves me dead wrong over the next five games.
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So ridiculous. It is impossible to know. I don't know how you can't understand the differences in the levels of college football. The speed, size, and strength is so different it is impossible to know how a player would translate from one level to the next.
 

Gopher028 said:
Mmmmkay, Shortell nearly beat USC at the Coli.
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STOP! STOP! STOP!
I can not handle another case of romancing a past player who just wasn't good. STP before you look even dumber!
 

GophersInIowa said:
So ridiculous. It is impossible to know. I don't know how you can't understand the differences in the levels of college football. The speed, size, and strength is so different it is impossible to know how a player would translate from one level to the next.
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I first figured out the difference in levels of football players 30 years ago when I went to camp at the U with Gary Hadd. I thought I was a real bad a$$ and I was a very good player but Gary could intimidate everyone just by walking into the cafeteria for breakfast much less when he was on the field. Light bulb goes on "so that's what a B1G football player looks like". I get it and that's actually my point when I watch Leidner play so far I see me and not Gary.
 

Spoofin said:
STOP! STOP! STOP!
I can not handle another case of romancing a past player who just wasn't good. STP before you look even dumber!
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We have had our scuffles, but I totally agree with you. I nearly fell out of my chair when read that line.
 



60's Guy said:
but for me the eye test is this: Leidner has nearly regained his freshman year form after regressing to start his sophomore year.
But as a freshman he ran the ball. That was his greatest asset. Either by injury or coaching instructions that aspect is no longer available to Mitch. (Purdue one exception) Yes he throws some beautiful passes but as you mentioned he throws some dreadful balls and he makes some really bad decisions too.

As a freshman he ran for 151 yards versus San Jose St. He ran for 66 and passed for 145 at Michigan on 14 of 21 passing last year as a freshman. In the bowl versus Syracuse he passed for 205 yards.
Now, yes he passed for 240 yards but against an Illinois defense giving you the pass. And he was 12 for 30 doing so.
We don't throw passes behind the line of scrimmage or screens or to backs. I'm guessing that is because we don't do it well in practice.
So for me the eye test is what scares me. I don't see the improvement or even the freshman swagger he had...better than the start of this season but not better than last year.
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Some of my biggest "noooooo!" moments last week came after decisions on the read-option. JK teams have always featured a heavy dose of QB runs and Mitch is a load, quick enough, and that threat really exploits defense's vulnerability. It's too bad we didn't win because I have seen improvement from him, even some flashes of brilliance, that make me optimistic he his on the cusp of being an upper tier B1G QB. It's easy in hindsight to question play-calling, which so many of the experts here are wont to do, but in the last two years our losses have come down to execution and I'm seeing progress as ML7 gains experience.
 

Indi1006 said:
I first figured out the difference in levels of football players 30 years ago when I went to camp at the U with Gary Hadd. I thought I was a real bad a$$ and I was a very good player but Gary could intimidate everyone just by walking into the cafeteria for breakfast much less when he was on the field. Light bulb goes on "so that's what a B1G football player looks like". I get it and that's actually my point when I watch Leidner play so far I see me and not Gary.
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Yes because physical attributes and frame are Leidner's biggest problems.
BTW Augustana is 4-4 this season, but they do throw the ball a ton which is why I can see your fascination with them and their QB. Still not B1G football which Mitch is 3-1 as a starter this season.
 

Ole said:
Yes because physical attributes and frame are Leidner's biggest problems.
BTW Augustana is 4-4 this season, but they do throw the ball a ton which is why I can see your fascination with them and their QB. Still not B1G football which Mitch is 3-1 as a starter this season.
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I am almost as big as Hadd and to go back to my day again Ross Ukkelberg was a larger man than him but not nearly the player. My point is there is something about the aura of the elite players that generally is just different; many times described as having "it". Hard to explain if you haven't been there first hand ever which you probably have not, but some players have it and some are just like the rest of us just trying to get by day-to-day. QBs generally need to be from that different breed and Mitch; questionable.
 

We aren't a pass happy team, but we can be successful as a run first team. Focusing on our national passing rank is nearly meaningless. The best four passing teams (by total yards) in the Big 10 are (in order) Illinois, Michigan State, Maryland and Rutgers. So passing success and overall success aren't necessarily linked. Georgia is a fringe top 10 team and is 115th in the country in passing.
 

LakerFan said:
We aren't a pass happy team, but we can be successful as a run first team. Focusing on our national passing rank is nearly meaningless. The best four passing teams (by total yards) in the Big 10 are (in order) Illinois, Michigan State, Maryland and Rutgers. So passing success and overall success aren't necessarily linked. Georgia is a fringe top 10 team and is 115th in the country in passing.
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We can certainly be a run first team. We don't need to pass for a lot of passing yards. What we can't do is be unable to complete passes when we decide to throw it. That is what Illinois showed us. Illinois is a terrible run defense team, so we should have expected to be able to run all over them. To counter that, Illinois totally sold out to stop the run, 8 or 9 guys in the box. Even a bad run defense can stop a good rushing attack if they dedicate 9 guys to it. That kind of focus on the run defense left open receivers on virtually every play. We weren't able to convert enough of that to get our offense going (and part of that is on receivers for drops). We should have had a field day with the passing game when Illinois was that run-focused.
 

FSN's Tyler Mason: Wouldn't be surprised if QB position is open competition i...

LakerFan said:
We aren't a pass happy team, but we can be successful as a run first team. Focusing on our national passing rank is nearly meaningless. The best four passing teams (by total yards) in the Big 10 are (in order) Illinois, Michigan State, Maryland and Rutgers. So passing success and overall success aren't necessarily linked. Georgia is a fringe top 10 team and is 115th in the country in passing.
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I agree that team passing stats are not something to look at too deeply

However, there is a couple people on this board saying our passing attack isn't much worse than Georgia's. That is unfiltered BS.

Say what you will about Georgia, but the difference between them and us is Hutson Mason has a 70% completion percentage.

Jerry Kill would give both nuts for that completion percentage out of Leidner. Hutson Mason is 9th in the country in that stat. Leidner is 116th.

If you're planning to be a run first and run 2nd team. You need to have a QB that completes more than 60% of his passes, and turns the ball over maybe once every other game at most. Knowing that Leidner is only a Sophomore, I think he can get close to that 60% threshold and be serviceable for us in the next 2 years, but he'll never complete 70% of his passes like Hutson Mason.
 

I think the real question is this: what is Leidner's ceiling? Is this as good as he's ever going to be? Can he get better, and if so, how much better? and how long will it take for him to reach his full potential?

I can't answer any of those questions. He may be one of those guys who looks good in practice but struggles in games. I will agree that, given the current state of the Gopher offense, the QB has to be able to run the ball. I don't know if it's the injuries, or he's being coached to play it safe, but Leidner just does not look like the same runner this season. I still wouldn't mind seeing Streveler get a couple of series a game, just to give the defense a different look, and see what happens.
 

Ole said:
Yes because physical attributes and frame are Leidner's biggest problems.
BTW Augustana is 4-4 this season, but they do throw the ball a ton which is why I can see your fascination with them and their QB. Still not B1G football which Mitch is 3-1 as a starter this season.
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I get the record comparison. But augustana has a terrible roster. Tough to judge by W/L

ML is 3-1 as a starter. How much credit does he get for the 3 wins though.



I can tell you this.
There is a reason ML was the preseason player to watch and the D1 recruit going into his senior year....because he excelled as a junior and sophomore. Lakeville north kid didn't blow up till he was a senior...hence no offers. North kid won the conference and the metro player of the year.


Similar to a lot of kids. MN high school football is filled with late bloomers. Late bloomers often have mediocre junior seasons and great senior seasons...but by that time much of the recruiting process has already run it's course. Don't know who is better. ML was not better their senior years, but has a much better frame to build on. I honestly thought ML was going to end up a TE or DE.
Look at South Dakota state running back zenner. He had about 500 yards his junior year, got no offers. He had 1500 yards his senior year...too late to get big offers...goes FCS...nearly 6000 yards later...maybe he is better than a lot of big ten backs.


Minnesota struggles because of the late bloomer aspect of playing in MN (I blame the cold weather for lots of late bloomers as well as the fact MN has a lot of quality people who have brains and work ethic). It is hard to know who is going to be good. Meanwhile NDSU, northern Iowa, South Dakota state, St. Cloud state, Winona, and Duluth all are very good for their level because they profit from these late bloomers.
 

Spoofin - Help Me Out

Spoofin said:
Well played! LOL
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Hey Spoof, I'm coming to you here cause I know you'll know where to find this data. I got too much time on my hands here and a thought popped into my head:

Is there any statistical correlation between the number of pass attempts and the pass completion ratio? I'm wondering if Mitch's pass completion ratio is perhaps due in part to the low number of passes he throws. Kinda like my golf game: the longer I have to wait between shots due to slow players ahead of me, the worse I play.:confused: Maybe statistics show the longer a QB has to wait between throwing his next pass the less likelihood he'll complete that next pass. Just curious.

Thanks for your help.

Double Alum
 

DoubleAlum said:
Hey Spoof, I'm coming to you here cause I know you'll know where to find this data. I got too much time on my hands here and a thought popped into my head:

Is there any statistical correlation between the number of pass attempts and the pass completion ratio? I'm wondering if Mitch's pass completion ratio is perhaps due in part to the low number of passes he throws. Kinda like my golf game: the longer I have to wait between shots due to slow players ahead of me, the worse I play.:confused: Maybe statistics show the longer a QB has to wait between throwing his next pass the less likelihood he'll complete that next pass. Just curious.

Thanks for your help.

Double Alum
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It doesn't look like it.

His games with the most passing attempts were Illinois and TCU.
Illinois - 12-30 (40%)
TCU - 12-26 (46%)
 

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