Paterno to have new statue in state college

... while condemning an otherwise great person for his own ignorance. Unfortunately, hypocrisy is lost on the overly-emotional.

Just out of curiosity, what made him an otherwise great person? Because he won football games and donated money for a library? Honest question.
 

No.

The reactions of about every post in this thread are ridiculous, displaying gross lack of understanding of the situation involved.

There are few Penn Staters and few in State College who aren't ashamed of what happened in the Sandusky situation, few who aren't ashamed that more wasn't done by school officials. However, they largely tend to be educated about the subject, unlike most of the posters in this thread, obviously.

I think the irony here is the gross ignorance of those of you going over the top about this without knowing all (or most?) of the pertinent facts to the situation, while condemning an otherwise great person for his own ignorance. Unfortunately, hypocrisy is lost on the overly-emotional.

You are clueless. This is coming from a guy who said Sandusky never raped anybody even though he was convicted on 8 counts of involuntary deviate sexual intercourse.

Go away. You are a troll or scum.
 

No.

The reactions of about every post in this thread are ridiculous, displaying gross lack of understanding of the situation involved.

There are few Penn Staters and few in State College who aren't ashamed of what happened in the Sandusky situation, few who aren't ashamed that more wasn't done by school officials. However, they largely tend to be educated about the subject, unlike most of the posters in this thread, obviously.

I think the irony here is the gross ignorance of those of you going over the top about this without knowing all (or most?) of the pertinent facts to the situation, while condemning an otherwise great person for his own ignorance. Unfortunately, hypocrisy is lost on the overly-emotional.

enlighten us, please.
 

As I expected, many have made excellent points as to why Joe Paterno should have his memory completely tarnished. At this point, it seems no one is willing to state the rationale for why it shouldn't be. Since I have squarely dug myself in as the contrarian opinion in the conversation, I may as well continue. I'll try do so while clarifying my position.

Again, I am not in favor of the statue. And if we're talking about how Sandusky ought to be viewed in all of this, and what his punishment should entail, I'd venture to guess my stance is more harsh than the majority of others. However, Paterno did not commit the atrocious acts, so I look at him differently.

Given that a few things come to my mind. First, Paterno did know that something was going on, and he didn't act appropriately. For that, he deserves incredible criticism. I don't think he knew the extent of what he was covering up. I think he was in denial of the magnitude of what could be happening. I think he was growing senile. In fact, many people have argued over the last decade that he was more a figurehead than an actual coach, granted, he still weld much power. He was born in a generation that was not as up-front with these sorts of issues, where problems were dealt with in-house and in private. He came from a generation that less recognized the severity of abuse, whether it be mental, physical or sexual.

That said, none of this exonerates him. Any discussion of Joe Paterno's career ought to include his great omission. His legacy is deservedly tarnished. And anyone who wants to engage in a conversation about the good he did, has to also be willing to discuss that in the most important decision(s) of his life, involving the well-being of children, he acted in the worst possible way. I'm just not going to be up-in-arms about someone who wants to remember the long duration of his career where he had a positive impact on those around him.

a192.gif
 



This isn't my quote, it's somebody else's from here: http://www.sltrib.com/pages/comments?cid=57420230
But it's a great point relating to this situation.

"Most sadly, the kids in PA are no safer now, as filmmakers profit on making this about football, instead of educating people on how pedophiles operate and where the system broke down.

The truth is coming about what happened in State College, filmmakers and reporters will find out if they were duped or if they dug deep enough to find the truth.
"

Lazily blaming PSU for everything in this case does little other than make for a great news story or to fill an emotional vacuum for the distraught who are looking for a scapegoat to make them feel better about a confusing, chilling situation. We don't know the truth. You can act like you do, but you don't. One of the main players has deceased; many of the others have impending trials and therefore cannot publicly speak on the matter to defend themselves. The others not facing impending trial all continue to defend themselves in the face of public outcry, stories non wavering. The case against Penn State is rife with proven errors at this point, and from my standpoint appears to be a rush to judgment. As time continues, more and more evidence is indicating that the case against PSU officials is not very strong, which could be one of the reasons why the top officials at PSU have not gone to trial yet. Again, we don't know.

It's easy to get all high and mighty and emotional. It's harder to be rational, think about the situation, and analyze it with some logic; to be patient, let the facts come out before rushing to judgment. Most of you take the easy way, rely 100% on media narratives (even though many of you same people hypocritically often decry anti-Gopher media or the media in general) and simply assume Penn State should incur most of the blame in this situation. That's fine, everyone has a right to their opinion. But it's a pretty lazy opinion, IMO, and I'm not a big fan of laziness.

Now, go ahead and rip me for not being part of the hysterical torch and pitchfork crowd. But until I see actual evidence of a PSU coverup other than the very specious hypothesis put forward by Louis Freeh, I don't yet feel like joining your large cult and will remain the outsider.
 

Now, go ahead and rip me for not being part of the hysterical torch and pitchfork crowd. But until I see actual evidence of a PSU coverup other than the very specious hypothesis put forward by Louis Freeh, I don't yet feel like joining your large cult and will remain the outsider.

The evidence is undeniable that top PSU officials (including Paterno) knew Sandusky was investigated for suspected sexual abuse in 1998. At that time the authorities had two psychologists interview Sandusky and review the evidence. One of them determined that Sandusky exhibited classic behavior of a sexual predator. The other psychologist came to a different opinion even though Sandusky admitted to the mother of the young boy that he had been showering with her son. Sandusky then told her this: "I wish I was dead". The DA ignored the first psychologist and decided not to prosecute Sandusky.

Then four years later in 2002 assistant coach Mike McQueary reported to Paterno, Senior VP Gary Schultz, and AD Tim Curley that he saw Sandusky taking a shower with a young boy in a PSU locker room and it appeared something sexual was going on. Paterno later admitted to a grand jury that McQueary told him this, and emails from Schultz and Curley prove that they were given the same information. They in turn reported the allegation to PSU president Graham Spanier.

Despite Paterno, Schultz, Curley, and Spanier being aware of the 1998 sexual abuse investigation of Sandusky, the 2002 allegation by McQueary was summarily dropped, no investigation was ever completed, and the incident was never reported to the proper authorities as required by state law. Case closed.

Sandusky continued to have access to PSU athletic facilities with his young victims until 2010. He was even permitted to travel to bowl games with the children and stay with them in hotel rooms. Paterno, Schultz, Curley, and Spanier knew he was doing this and never said a word to anybody about it.

In 2012 Sandusky was indicted and tried on 52 charges of sexual crimes against children. Four charges were subsequently dropped, leaving 48 charges for trial. Sandusky was found guilty on 45 of the 48 counts of sexual abuse.

On the above evidence alone Schultz, Curley, and Spanier belong in prison, and Paterno's reputation deserves to be permanently tarnished. End of story.
 

The evidence is undeniable that top PSU officials (including Paterno) knew Sandusky was investigated for suspected sexual abuse in 1998. At that time the authorities had two psychologists interview Sandusky and review the evidence. One of them determined that Sandusky exhibited classic behavior of a sexual predator. The other psychologist came to a different opinion even though Sandusky admitted his inappropriate behavior to the mother of the young victim, and then told her this: "I wash I was dead". The DA ignored the first psychologist and decided not to prosecute Sandusky.

Then four years later in 2002 assistant coach Mike McQueary reported to Paterno, Senior VP Gary Schultz, and AD Tim Curley that he saw Sandusky taking a shower with a young boy and it appeared something sexual was going on. Paterno later admitted to a grand jury that McQueary told him this, and emails from Schultz and Curley prove that they were given the same information. They in turn reported the allegations to PSU president Graham Spanier.

Despite Paterno, Schultz, Curley, and Spanier being aware of the 1998 sexual abuse investigation of Sandusky, the 2002 allegation by McQueary was summarily dropped, no investigation was ever completed, and the incident was never reported to the proper authorities as required by state law. Case closed.

Sandusky continued to have access to PSU athletic facilities with his young victims until 2010. He was even permitted to travel to bowl games with the children and stay with them in hotel rooms. Paterno, Schultz, Curley, and Spanier knew he was doing this and never said a word to anybody about it.

In 2012 Sandusky was indicted and tried on 52 charges of sexual crimes against children. Four charges were subsequently dropped, leaving 48 charges for trial. Sandusky was found guilty on 45 of the 48 counts of sexual abuse.

On the above evidence alone Schultz, Curley, and Spanier belong in jail, and Paterno's reputation deserves to be permanently tarnished. End of story.

+45
 

The people are insane. I was recently in State College and in every business around the downtown area there was a sign that said "I Support Penn State Football."

They should have nuked the program out of existence

This is exactly right, and was my position as well. The NCAA should have glassed the entire football program with a tactical nuke. Make an example of PSU to the other 'win at all costs'-type programs out there.

The placement of this statue is just a way for the Joe-Bots to try and edify their position on Paterno's legacy, and thumb their noses in the face of thinking people everywhere who understand that no amount of football success is worth the destruction of a child's innocence and right to grow up safe and protected from evil people. And understand that there are Joe-Bots EVERYWHERE, and their insane position and defense of Paterno is entrenched.

It's crazy to me that so many refuse to see this situation for what it was - a serious cover-up to prevent any damage to a football program perceived to be 'too big to fail'. What's really sad is that, if Paterno had actually done the right thing initially, as far back as 1998 when Sandusky 'retired', and refused him access to campus, Sandusky wouldn't have been enabled and emboldened to use the University and the football program as a lure to these young boys.
 



The evidence is undeniable that top PSU officials (including Paterno) knew Sandusky was investigated for suspected sexual abuse in 1998. At that time the authorities had two psychologists interview Sandusky and review the evidence. One of them determined that Sandusky exhibited classic behavior of a sexual predator. The other psychologist came to a different opinion even though Sandusky admitted to the mother of the young boy that he had been showering with her son, and then told her this: "I wish I was dead". The DA ignored the first psychologist and decided not to prosecute Sandusky.

Then four years later in 2002 assistant coach Mike McQueary reported to Paterno, Senior VP Gary Schultz, and AD Tim Curley that he saw Sandusky taking a shower with a young boy and it appeared something sexual was going on. Paterno later admitted to a grand jury that McQueary told him this, and emails from Schultz and Curley prove that they were given the same information. They in turn reported the allegations to PSU president Graham Spanier.

Despite Paterno, Schultz, Curley, and Spanier being aware of the 1998 sexual abuse investigation of Sandusky, the 2002 allegation by McQueary was summarily dropped, no investigation was ever completed, and the incident was never reported to the proper authorities as required by state law. Case closed.

Sandusky continued to have access to PSU athletic facilities with his young victims until 2010. He was even permitted to travel to bowl games with the children and stay with them in hotel rooms. Paterno, Schultz, Curley, and Spanier knew he was doing this and never said a word to anybody about it.

In 2012 Sandusky was indicted and tried on 52 charges of sexual crimes against children. Four charges were subsequently dropped, leaving 48 charges for trial. Sandusky was found guilty on 45 of the 48 counts of sexual abuse.

On the above evidence alone Schultz, Curley, and Spanier belong in prison, and Paterno's reputation deserves to be permanently tarnished. End of story.

Couldn't have said it any better.
 

The evidence is undeniable that top PSU officials (including Paterno) knew Sandusky was investigated for suspected sexual abuse in 1998. ...
On the above evidence alone Schultz, Curley, and Spanier belong in prison, and Paterno's reputation deserves to be permanently tarnished. End of story.

Solid and fair post with no apparent errors. I'll disagree with the conclusion of your last sentence (based on my opinion that it's not clear how much the various PSU officials knew of the 1998 incident), however it's certainly not unreasonable to think that way given the rest of your post. Thanks for the educated opinion.
 

As I expected, many have made excellent points as to why Joe Paterno should have his memory completely tarnished. At this point, it seems no one is willing to state the rationale for why it shouldn't be. Since I have squarely dug myself in as the contrarian opinion in the conversation, I may as well continue. I'll try do so while clarifying my position.

Again, I am not in favor of the statue. And if we're talking about how Sandusky ought to be viewed in all of this, and what his punishment should entail, I'd venture to guess my stance is more harsh than the majority of others. However, Paterno did not commit the atrocious acts, so I look at him differently.

Given that a few things come to my mind. First, Paterno did know that something was going on, and he didn't act appropriately. For that, he deserves incredible criticism. I don't think he knew the extent of what he was covering up. I think he was in denial of the magnitude of what could be happening. I think he was growing senile. In fact, many people have argued over the last decade that he was more a figurehead than an actual coach, granted, he still weld much power. He was born in a generation that was not as up-front with these sorts of issues, where problems were dealt with in-house and in private. He came from a generation that less recognized the severity of abuse, whether it be mental, physical or sexual.

That said, none of this exonerates him. Any discussion of Joe Paterno's career ought to include his great omission. His legacy is deservedly tarnished. And anyone who wants to engage in a conversation about the good he did, has to also be willing to discuss that in the most important decision(s) of his life, involving the well-being of children, he acted in the worst possible way. I'm just not going to be up-in-arms about someone who wants to remember the long duration of his career where he had a positive impact on those around him.

The problem is that you can't pick and choose what parts of a person's legacy you're honoring with a statue. Would you be OK if the New Orleans Saints retired Darren Sharper's number because he was an All-Pro on their Super Bowl team? What if they ensured everyone that they aren't endorsing the sex crimes--just celebrating his excellent Saints career?
 

Let's all just do anything we want.

And blame our parents.
 



The problem is that you can't pick and choose what parts of a person's legacy you're honoring with a statue. Would you be OK if the New Orleans Saints retired Darren Sharper's number because he was an All-Pro on their Super Bowl team? What if they ensured everyone that they aren't endorsing the sex crimes--just celebrating his excellent Saints career?

I think my post essentially addressed your rebuttal, but to reiterate, I don't think we should overlook Paterno's immense shortcomings in this scenario. Sharper is the perpetrator, Paterno was not. And Paterno had over a half century of service to the University - it wasn't a short stint. The length of Paterno's tenure plays a part in my thinking. If he had an otherwise great tenure that lasted only twenty years, I wouldn't be defending the idea of any statue. Prior to this I held Paterno in great regard. I don't anymore. I wouldn't build a statue. I just won't automatically condemn someone who feels differently.
 

This is exactly right, and was my position as well. The NCAA should have glassed the entire football program with a tactical nuke. Make an example of PSU to the other 'win at all costs'-type programs out there.

The placement of this statue is just a way for the Joe-Bots to try and edify their position on Paterno's legacy, and thumb their noses in the face of thinking people everywhere who understand that no amount of football success is worth the destruction of a child's innocence and right to grow up safe and protected from evil people. And understand that there are Joe-Bots EVERYWHERE, and their insane position and defense of Paterno is entrenched.

It's crazy to me that so many refuse to see this situation for what it was - a serious cover-up to prevent any damage to a football program perceived to be 'too big to fail'. What's really sad is that, if Paterno had actually done the right thing initially, as far back as 1998 when Sandusky 'retired', and refused him access to campus, Sandusky wouldn't have been enabled and emboldened to use the University and the football program as a lure to these young boys.

I agree with most of this. The only nuance, as far as Paterno's legacy is concerned, is that I don't view it in terms of wins or losses of the program. It's the positive impact Paterno had on the community and his players during his long tenure. I don't think Paterno should be viewed in high regard, as he was prior to this. I just won't automatically dismiss the idea of some fans who want to remember the rest. I may not agree with them, and I do want them to recognize the atrocity that occurred on Paterno's watch.
 

I agree with most of this. The only nuance, as far as Paterno's legacy is concerned, is that I don't view it in terms of wins or losses of the program. It's the positive impact Paterno had on the community and his players during his long tenure. I don't think Paterno should be viewed in high regard, as he was prior to this. I just won't automatically dismiss the idea of some fans who want to remember the rest. I may not agree with them, and I do want them to recognize the atrocity that occurred on Paterno's watch.

Paterno's stature and influence make it doubly-damning that he failed to take any reasonable action. His character is weak. That is what we know now. That is what he showed his current and former players. Never mind the prior 50 years of whitewash. Any person to make it to a CEO-type position has at least a little bit of politician in him. Including Jerry Kill. It is the most important qualification.

True character is how you treat people when no one is looking. Paterno failed when the chips were down. End of story. There are no excuses.

Someone described them before as Joe-bots. And it's a good description. The cult of personality is a fascinating thing. We see it in politics all the time, fanatical conservatives and liberals cheerleading obvious sociopaths while the rest of us gape upon them in utter incredulity.
 

Solid and fair post with no apparent errors. I'll disagree with the conclusion of your last sentence (based on my opinion that it's not clear how much the various PSU officials knew of the 1998 incident), however it's certainly not unreasonable to think that way given the rest of your post. Thanks for the educated opinion.

That is just a ridiculously collegial response. Where is the venom?
 

That is just a ridiculously collegial response. Where is the venom?

That poster actually did some homework before posting and displayed an understanding of the general facts of the situation. If he has obtained good information and derives his opinion therefrom, I think that's all you can ask, even if you disagree.
 

Paterno's stature and influence make it doubly-damning that he failed to take any reasonable action. His character is weak. That is what we know now. That is what he showed his current and former players. Never mind the prior 50 years of whitewash. Any person to make it to a CEO-type position has at least a little bit of politician in him. Including Jerry Kill. It is the most important qualification.

True character is how you treat people when no one is looking. Paterno failed when the chips were down. End of story. There are no excuses.

Someone described them before as Joe-bots. And it's a good description. The cult of personality is a fascinating thing. We see it in politics all the time, fanatical conservatives and liberals cheerleading obvious sociopaths while the rest of us gape upon them in utter incredulity.

No doubt, Paterno failed when it mattered most, and he had the most power to do something. He did take the proper step in bringing the situation to superiors. If it was his superiors who chose to do nothing in terms of an investigation, he was morally obligated to push them towards an investigation. If it was Paterno who encouraged no investigation, then you can scrap all of my previous posts, because he becomes too complicit in enabling the abuse to continue. I don't have the facts to make that determination, and I'm willing to accept other people wishing to honor him, even if I would not.
 

No doubt, Paterno failed when it mattered most, and he had the most power to do something. He did take the proper step in bringing the situation to superiors. If it was his superiors who chose to do nothing in terms of an investigation, he was morally obligated to push them towards an investigation. If it was Paterno who encouraged no investigation, then you can scrap all of my previous posts, because he becomes too complicit in enabling the abuse to continue. I don't have the facts to make that determination, and I'm willing to accept other people wishing to honor him, even if I would not.

I don't understand the bolded part. The most Paterno could have done was badger his superiors to continue on the situation. Only those superiors know if he did or not. He was an icon, but he didn't have a lot of power. I think what people forget was that Sandusky was no longer associated with Paterno; he was an ex-employee of PSU who ran the Second Mile Charity, but had access to campus. Those superiors could have taken away Sandusky's campus access. Paterno did not have that authority. Further, any "power" Paterno had at the time of the Sandusky issues in the early 2000s was about as low as could be; Paterno was losing ball games, was on the hot seat as a coach, was being asked to consider retirement, and the PSU faithful weren't big on Paterno either at that time. The sense that Paterno was some all-powerful god ruling the PSU campus is ridiculous. Spanier (the Pres) was clearly the most powerful person on campus at that time.
 

I don't understand the bolded part. The most Paterno could have done was badger his superiors to continue on the situation. Only those superiors know if he did or not. He was an icon, but he didn't have a lot of power. I think what people forget was that Sandusky was no longer associated with Paterno; he was an ex-employee of PSU who ran the Second Mile Charity, but had access to campus. Those superiors could have taken away Sandusky's campus access. Paterno did not have that authority. Further, any "power" Paterno had at the time of the Sandusky issues in the early 2000s was about as low as could be; Paterno was losing ball games, was on the hot seat as a coach, was being asked to consider retirement, and the PSU faithful weren't big on Paterno either at that time. The sense that Paterno was some all-powerful god ruling the PSU campus is ridiculous. Spanier (the Pres) was clearly the most powerful person on campus at that time.

Your criticism of my bolded comment is fair. Regardless of titles, I do believe Paterno had a lot of power, even if it wasn't the most, and the rest of my points stand. If he was acting with strong character he should have badgered superiors. I didn't state that as a possibility, as I assume if he did more would have been done. I could be incorrect in that assessment.
 

First look at statue. Or don't look:

<img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/11210690313_07fd4b96ae_o.jpg" width="35%" height="35%">
 

<img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/11210690313_07fd4b96ae_o.jpg" width="25%" height="25%">

Inspiration for that statue must have been "Stupid Sexy Flanders"

<img src="http://th07.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2011/008/c/b/stupid_sexy_flanders_by_thefightingmongooses-d36omio.png" width="25%" height="25%">

Pro tip: You can override the size issue with pictures by using the code below. For example, I used this code to resize the original to 25% on w+h:
img src="#" width="50%" height="50%" - but you have to enclose the previous with a < at the beginning, and a > at the end.
[the Flanders picture was reduced to 50% h+w:]
 

I don't understand the bolded part. The most Paterno could have done was badger his superiors to continue on the situation. Only those superiors know if he did or not. He was an icon, but he didn't have a lot of power. I think what people forget was that Sandusky was no longer associated with Paterno; he was an ex-employee of PSU who ran the Second Mile Charity, but had access to campus. Those superiors could have taken away Sandusky's campus access. Paterno did not have that authority. Further, any "power" Paterno had at the time of the Sandusky issues in the early 2000s was about as low as could be; Paterno was losing ball games, was on the hot seat as a coach, was being asked to consider retirement, and the PSU faithful weren't big on Paterno either at that time. The sense that Paterno was some all-powerful god ruling the PSU campus is ridiculous. Spanier (the Pres) was clearly the most powerful person on campus at that time.

Uh, ok. I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. So if a worker has knowledge of a felony offense (via a credible source) vs a child he's off the hook if he tells the perpetrator's boss? If the boss sits on the information he doesn't have a moral obligation to go the the police himself. Ok.

How do you know all these things about the power structure at Perv State?
 

Paterno's stature and influence make it doubly-damning that he failed to take any reasonable action. His character is weak. That is what we know now. That is what he showed his current and former players. Never mind the prior 50 years of whitewash. Any person to make it to a CEO-type position has at least a little bit of politician in him. Including Jerry Kill. It is the most important qualification.

True character is how you treat people when no one is looking. Paterno failed when the chips were down. End of story. There are no excuses.

Someone described them before as Joe-bots. And it's a good description. The cult of personality is a fascinating thing. We see it in politics all the time, fanatical conservatives and liberals cheerleading obvious sociopaths while the rest of us gape upon them in utter incredulity.

Agreed.
 

Paterno put his own image and the FB program ahead of the well being of the victims and possible future victims. These victims were children who couldn't fight for themselves. That is not deniable. If anyone still feels he is getting a raw deal in any way what-so-ever then you have issues of your own that need to be dealt with first.
 

Pro tip: You can override the size issue with pictures by using the code below. For example, I used this code to resize the original to 25% on w+h:
img src="#" width="50%" height="50%" - but you have to enclose the previous with a < at the beginning, and a > at the end.
[the Flanders picture was reduced to 50% h+w:]

Thx. It's been a while since I had to write code.

Done and done. Doesn't make me feel any more comfortable with the link. :cry:
 

Speaking of statues, the plaza would look nice with statues of Bernie Bierman, Bronko Nagurski, and Bruce Smith. One can dream.
 

<img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/11210690313_07fd4b96ae_o.jpg" width="25%" height="25%">

Inspiration for that statue must have been "Stupid Sexy Flanders"

<img src="http://th07.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2011/008/c/b/stupid_sexy_flanders_by_thefightingmongooses-d36omio.png" width="25%" height="25%">

Pro tip: You can override the size issue with pictures by using the code below. For example, I used this code to resize the original to 25% on w+h:
img src="#" width="50%" height="50%" - but you have to enclose the previous with a < at the beginning, and a > at the end.
[the Flanders picture was reduced to 50% h+w:]

ah, so these are the hideous, gross and obnoxious pictures on these pages that a certain someone was talking about. Truly bringing down GH. ;)
 




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