Gophers vs. Wisconsin 1892

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My website contains the results from every Gopher Football game and a couple of years ago I was contacted by a Badger fan who gave me a link to the following article:

http://www.uwbadgers.com/blog/2011/11/it-started-innocently-enough-sundays.html

According to that article, the Gophers, who had been listed in the record books as 32-4 winners in that game, actually lost 40-32. Their evidence is from an 1894 Badger yearbook which lists the score that way. Their evidence was strong enough to convince the U athletic department because their current media guides list that score now, giving the win to Wisconsin. I also changed my website to reflect that updated score. It certainly seems reasonable to go with a source only two years removed from the game itself.

However, I was just looking through an old book of mine which was published in 1914 called Football at Minnesota. I went to the section on 1892 and it lists the game as a Gopher win, 32-4. It also has a three paragraph description of the game which describes how the game went, including the line "It was only a fumble of punt behind Minnesota's goal line that gave Wisconsin an opportunity to save herself from a shutout." Clearly, if this description is accurate, it could not have been a 40-32 Wisconsin win.

So, who do we believe? The 1894 source is only two years removed from the game while the 1914 source is 22 years removed, but I'd argue that it would be much easier to misprint a score from a single game than to write an entire game summary which is nothing like the game that was played. In my opinion, this game should go back to being listed as a Gopher win. Would you agree with me? And does anyone know who at the U I could contact about this?

For completeness, I'll type in the entire game description below:

Minnesota 32 - Wisconsin 4

The 1892 game with Wisconsin was played at Madison, on the 29th of October. It was only a fumble of punt behind Minnesota's goal line that gave Wisconsin an opportunity to save herself from a shutout. The Minnesota team played a magnificent game, and carried everything before it. Leary was unable to play on account of an injured knee and Patterson was in charge.

Early in the game the ball changed hands a number of times until Minnesota struck her pace, and then it was a mad rush for the Wisconsin goal. Harding, Patterson and Pillsbury vied with each other in advancing the ball for Minnesota. At the end of the first half the score stood 8 to 4 for Minnesota, Wisconsin's score coming early in the game on a fumble of a long punt.

In the second half Wisconsin started out with a rush, but soon lost the ball. Minnesota made two good runs and one rush, and carried the ball across the Wisconsin goal for a touchdown. Wisconsin neither gained through the line or around the ends. Minnesota's progress was a series of runs and rushes with an occasional punt. The game was characterized by unusually fine interference, and powerful rushes, with the whole team in every play. Harding did wonderful work in the line and in advancing the ball. There was no scrapping over decisions, and the Wisconsin men played up to their limit all of the time.
 


My website contains the results from every Gopher Football game and a couple of years ago I was contacted by a Badger fan who gave me a link to the following article: http://www.uwbadgers.com/blog/2011/11/it-started-innocently-enough-sundays.html According to that article, the Gophers, who had been listed in the record books as 32-4 winners in that game, actually lost 40-32. Their evidence is from an 1894 Badger yearbook which lists the score that way. Their evidence was strong enough to convince the U athletic department because their current media guides list that score now, giving the win to Wisconsin. I also changed my website to reflect that updated score. It certainly seems reasonable to go with a source only two years removed from the game itself. However, I was just looking through an old book of mine which was published in 1914 called Football at Minnesota. I went to the section on 1892 and it lists the game as a Gopher win, 32-4. It also has a three paragraph description of the game which describes how the game went, including the line "It was only a fumble of punt behind Minnesota's goal line that gave Wisconsin an opportunity to save herself from a shutout." Clearly, if this description is accurate, it could not have been a 40-32 Wisconsin win. So, who do we believe? The 1894 source is only two years removed from the game while the 1914 source is 22 years removed, but I'd argue that it would be much easier to misprint a score from a single game than to write an entire game summary which is nothing like the game that was played. In my opinion, this game should go back to being listed as a Gopher win. Would you agree with me? And does anyone know who at the U I could contact about this? For completeness, I'll type in the entire game description below: Minnesota 32 - Wisconsin 4 The 1892 game with Wisconsin was played at Madison, on the 29th of October. It was only a fumble of punt behind Minnesota's goal line that gave Wisconsin an opportunity to save herself from a shutout. The Minnesota team played a magnificent game, and carried everything before it. Leary was unable to play on account of an injured knee and Patterson was in charge. Early in the game the ball changed hands a number of times until Minnesota struck her pace, and then it was a mad rush for the Wisconsin goal. Harding, Patterson and Pillsbury vied with each other in advancing the ball for Minnesota. At the end of the first half the score stood 8 to 4 for Minnesota, Wisconsin's score coming early in the game on a fumble of a long punt. In the second half Wisconsin started out with a rush, but soon lost the ball. Minnesota made two good runs and one rush, and carried the ball across the Wisconsin goal for a touchdown. Wisconsin neither gained through the line or around the ends. Minnesota's progress was a series of runs and rushes with an occasional punt. The game was characterized by unusually fine interference, and powerful rushes, with the whole team in every play. Harding did wonderful work in the line and in advancing the ball. There was no scrapping over decisions, and the Wisconsin men played up to their limit all of the time.

Great stuff, did you present it to the badger fan yet?
 

Hmmmmm.... Rules have changed a lot in 120 years. How does one score 4 points off of a fumbled punt?

I guess I should brush up on my football history.

Sent from my MUCH i5 using Tapatalk
 

Have you tried to find the results in old newspapers? You could reference both a minneapolis one and a madison (or other wisconsin one if they didn't have a newspaper...). Might give you an additional reference to back either a gopher win or badger win? from the description in your book i sure sounds like the gophs dominated
 




My great great grandfather played in that game. Interesting tidbit, after the game the Gophers chopped down the goalposts - all four of them! There was no conflict with the Badger team gathered in the home end zone however because the goal posts were on the 8 yard line.
 

If nothing was reported as taken and never returned after the game...I am assuming the Gophers won.
 



We still lead in the series for the ax which many of the skunk fans seem too forget. Too them, the ax is their pacifier for
never having won a National Championship.
 

If nothing was reported as taken and never returned after the game...I am assuming the Gophers won.

<img src="http://www.hondagrom.net/forums/attachments/6080d1385329455-fs-super-rare-2013-5-grom-heavily-modded-king-kong-soap-edition-i-see-what-you-did-there.jpg">
 

According to the Saint Paul Sunday Globe from October 30, 1892, Minnesota won 34 to 4.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn90059522/1892-10-30/ed-1/seq-11.pdf

The graph describing the game is in the third column near the bottom of the page. I particularly like this bit:

The Wisconsin team was handicapped by having sis of*its heaviest men in the hospital, the result of the Purdue game. About 1.000 people witnessed the game. Krnshaw, left guard for Wisconsin, had his right ankle Broken in the second half. Bruised and torn faces, broken fingers and sprains were the special features of the game.
 

we won for sure. cheating, lying dirty skunks!
 



I'll have to check my CFB encyclopedia tonight but I'm going to say it's a win and without a head coach no less.
 



I've just sent an email off to a couple of Athletic Department addresses (and I included the link to the St. Paul Daily Globe paper - thanks for that!), so we'll see if that brings anything. I think I'll also send one off to the Wisconsin Athletic Department as well, but I'll see what response I get first.

I do think it would be worth looking into a good newspaper archive to see if we can find more information from other papers to confirm this - and to figure out whether the Globe's 34-4 score is accurate or if that is a misprint and the 32-4 score that we had for more than a century is correct. I think the downtown library has a pretty extensive collection, so when I get a chance, I'll try to get down there and take a look.
 

Intersting - on the Gophersports website it reflects a Gophers Victory:

http://www.gophersports.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/m-footbl-sched-1892-93.html

You're right - I didn't know that they haven't updated their website. If you look in the Gopher Football media guides, you'll see that in 2011, the score was still listed as a 32-4 Gopher victory, but by 2012, it had been corrected to show a Wisconsin 40-32 win.

http://www.gophersports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/minn-m-footbl-media-guides.html
 



OK, using the Hennepin County Library's website, I also just found an article from the 10/30/1892 Minneapolis Tribune which confirms the 32-4 victory for the Gophers. It may not affect our recruiting, but it changes our 58-57-8 record vs. the Badgers to 59-56-8, meaning they won't be playing us with a chance to tie up the all-time series next fall...
 

OK, using the Hennepin County Library's website, I also just found an article from the 10/30/1892 Minneapolis Tribune which confirms the 32-4 victory for the Gophers. It may not affect our recruiting, but it changes our 58-57-8 record vs. the Badgers to 59-56-8, meaning they won't be playing us with a chance to tie up the all-time series next fall...
Since we were also undefeated, can we get an 8th national title out of this?
 

OK, using the Hennepin County Library's website, I also just found an article from the 10/30/1892 Minneapolis Tribune which confirms the 32-4 victory for the Gophers. It may not affect our recruiting, but it changes our 58-57-8 record vs. the Badgers to 59-56-8, meaning they won't be playing us with a chance to tie up the all-time series next fall...

I work in sports information, so this stuff is in my wheelhouse. It is kind of disheartening that the Gopher football SID in 2011 did not do any research of his own - just took the Wisconsin guy's word for it and made the change.

This is the first I've heard of the debate, though little red flags went up in my mind when The Monsignor stopped by for the annual Axe Week post and said "even with this incredible string for the Badgers, the overall series still stands at 58-56-8 for the Gophers."
 


It looks like we have a mystery. Based on the evidence presented, it looks like Minnesota won the game, and that the 40-32 Wisconsin win was a transcription error. The 1914 Football at Minnesota book was from later, but it doesn't just have a score, it has a description of the game. There also is the score from the 1892 newspaper.

Apparently, all we have as a source for the 40-32 Wisconsin win is a yearbook. We have NO description of the 40-32 Wisconsin win. Note that the discrepancy is just a zero. Minnesota 32, Wisconsin 4 vs. Minnesota 32 Wisconsin 40. All it would have taken is someone transcribing the score misreading 4 as 40. The evidence looks pretty compelling that it was a Minnesota win.

The nail in the coffin would be a score from a Wisconsin newspaper from 1892. If that says Minnesota 34, Wisconsin 4, then it's obviously just a transcription error.
 

It looks like we have a mystery. Based on the evidence presented, it looks like Minnesota won the game, and that the 40-32 Wisconsin win was a transcription error. The 1914 Football at Minnesota book was from later, but it doesn't just have a score, it has a description of the game. There also is the score from the 1892 newspaper.

Apparently, all we have as a source for the 40-32 Wisconsin win is a yearbook. We have NO description of the 40-32 Wisconsin win. Note that the discrepancy is just a zero. Minnesota 32, Wisconsin 4 vs. Minnesota 32 Wisconsin 40. All it would have taken is someone transcribing the score misreading 4 as 40. The evidence looks pretty compelling that it was a Minnesota win.

The nail in the coffin would be a score from a Wisconsin newspaper from 1892. If that says Minnesota 34, Wisconsin 4, then it's obviously just a transcription error.

unfortunately Wisconsin is way behind Minnesota in digitizing their newspapers so it would take either a wisconsin newspaper subscription or going to the wisconsin historical society to check their end of it.
 

unfortunately Wisconsin is way behind Minnesota in digitizing their newspapers so it would take either a wisconsin newspaper subscription or going to the wisconsin historical society to check their end of it.
I didn't think Wisconsin had developed the ability to write until 1904? Maybe they can find some hieroglyphics describing the game.
 


It's "Axe", not "ax." Wisconsin holds the lead "in the series for the ax [sic]

As ruppert already said, both spellings are acceptable. In fact, "ax" is the preferred spelling according to Webster. I'm all for pedantry, but at least be accurate if you're going to call someone out over something so trivial.

unfortunately Wisconsin is way behind Minnesota in digitizing their newspapers so it would take either a wisconsin newspaper subscription or going to the wisconsin historical society to check their end of it.

You mean Wisconsin is backwards and outdated at something? Naaawww, couldn't be...
 

Is anyone gathering up the evidence to present to the athletics department yet?

The article linked to in the OP is pretty weak tea. The evidence for a Wisconsin win? A document from 1901 which listed a Wisconsin win, and then a yearbook from 1894. That's not to say that it is of no value, but they stopped there. It's always tempting to stop looking when further evidence might disprove your conjecture. Someone made a mistake a long time ago. Why automatically assume that the 34-4 score was the error. There is the newspaper article from right after the game which confirms that Minnesota won. The article doesn't have a lot of detail, so it is possible that was were the mistake came from. But the 1914 book "Football at Minnesota" (it's a free download, I recommend it you are interested in Gopher history) has not just the score, but a description of the game. That can't be a mistake, if that description is wrong, it would have had to have been faked. We have no evidence that this description was faked. The most likely answer was someone made a transcription error in the 1894 yearbook, and that someone used the 1892 yearbook as a source for the 1901 document.


This part is so Minnesota "The next step was to contact my counterpart at Minnesota and tell him of my findings and show him the proof. Luckily, the intense Border Battle rivalry does not extend to the Athletic Communications staffs. His response was basically, "Good research. We'll get it changed on our end.""

Don't verify it for yourself, just take their word for it. That's so Minnesota Nice.


I'm not outraged by this, just interested. It's a great mystery, and a matter of school pride. And it's a dull time anyway. And I'm not going to give away a win easily, no matter how long ago it was. Wikipedia still has this as a Minnesota win when you look at the article on the 1892 Minnesota Gophers team, but lists it as a win under the Badgers article. The Badger Wikipedia article cites the article from the Badger website. We need to U to take back the win, and put up their own article, so we can use it as a source. Or someone here can write up the article for them. Anyone feel up to writing the article?

Maybe a first step would be a Gopherhole article?
 




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