What grade would you give Max Shortell vs. Syracuse?

What grade would you give Max Shortell vs. Syracuse?

  • A

    Votes: 8 5.3%

  • B

    Votes: 115 75.7%

  • C

    Votes: 29 19.1%
  • Total voters
    152
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I gave him an A considering what expectations should be. He's still a young guy with limited game experience, and he made the throws he had to and didn't turn the ball over. He made smart decisions all game long. He put the ball right on the money to Barker in the end zone on the 1st possession of the game, and also had the long TD called back because of holding right before the half. There's 14 points that were left on the field. He also hit the clutch throws he needed to in the 4th quarter to ice the game.

If your expectations are that a back-up QB for the Gophers should be able to throw for 300+ yards against another BCS team without 2 of our best receivers on the field, you probably gave him a C. Anyone living in the reality of where the program has been the last few years will be much more excited by his performance.
 

afurry91 said:
Since everyone else is thinking it... If Gray put up the stat line that Shortell put up tonight, all of you guys would be driving him into the ground. The receivers dropped alot of balls, but they were poorly thrown balls, behind them, over their head, everywhere but between the numbers in the second half. The Syracuse defense was supposed to be horrible.

That being said, he played fine. We got the win, but let's not act like he played good. Struggling to maintain 50% completion is not what I would call good.
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You, are clueless.
 

Better than I thought he would. Good enough to win. Bad enough to make me hope gray is healthy ASAP.
 

Some Day...Is Coming! said:
You, are clueless.
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You really think he is clueless, when it has allready happened many times this year? Gray had similar statline to open the season, and people were allready calling for his head. I wouldnt have been supprised if most voters gave Gray a C if he would have been the quarterback last night
 

victor04 said:
You really think he is clueless, when it has allready happened many times this year? Gray had similar statline to open the season, and people were allready calling for his head. I wouldnt have been supprised if most voters gave Gray a C if he would have been the quarterback last night
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Fair or not, part of it is expectations. Gray is a senior who was highly touted, Shortell is a sophomore who wasn't.
 


GopherGack said:
One thing that is very hard for a casual fan to know is where the error lies when a ball is incomplete. Every pass play is a combination of QB and WR. I think there were a few obvious times tonight where Max just wasn't used to throwing to these guys yet. A case in point . Barker ran a drag @ 4yards from left to right on third down and long. Max threw the ball somewhat over his head and a little out in front and Barker can only get his fingertips on it. Well it's easy to say Max overthrew the ball. Which is true to a degree but it's also true that Barker could have throttled down and because Max hasn't had a lot of practice time with the first team he just hasn't locked in to Barker's tendencies yet. Either way often times it isn't just about the QB making a bad throw but really it's about the QB and the WR just not quite clicking. That isn't something the casual fan (unless you're going to actually break down the game film and do some analysis) can know. This is true for Gray as well. You have to know the idiosyncrasies of your WR's and the only way you learn those is with repetition. Max has not had much of that with the first team yet. Let's wait a few more games and see where he's at.
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+1 Not on the GopherHole where everybody is an expert!:cool:
 

John Galt said:
Fair or not, part of it is expectations. Gray is a senior who was highly touted, Shortell is a sophomore who wasn't.
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Well at the same time gray is a Sophmore as well in terms of QB development. You could even say that Gray is even further behind in terms of QB experinace than Shortell (not game time experience of course). Shortell has been dedicated to QB only the past 5+ years, Gray had a lapse of 2 years where the QB spot was not his main focus.

I like both of these guys, it just appears that Gray does not get a fair shake from some on this board from time to time.
 

John Galt said:
I gave him an A considering what expectations should be. He's still a young guy with limited game experience, and he made the throws he had to and didn't turn the ball over. He made smart decisions all game long. He put the ball right on the money to Barker in the end zone on the 1st possession of the game, and also had the long TD called back because of holding right before the half. There's 14 points that were left on the field. He also hit the clutch throws he needed to in the 4th quarter to ice the game.

If your expectations are that a back-up QB for the Gophers should be able to throw for 300+ yards against another BCS team without 2 of our best receivers on the field, you probably gave him a C. Anyone living in the reality of where the program has been the last few years will be much more excited by his performance.
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Your expectations for Max must have been incredibly low.
 

I gave him a B.

He was not accurate enough to warrant an A.

But no interceptions prevented a C.
 




John Galt said:
In his two starts as a true freshman, we lost 58-0 and 45-17. What was your expectation?
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That he'd hit open receivers, but since you hadn't seem him play THIS year, that explains a lot.
 

Iceland12 said:
That he'd hit open receivers, but since you hadn't seem him play THIS year, that explains a lot.
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Some folks don't expect that of the starting QB. It's probably unfair to expect it of the backup.
 

The expectations of some of our fans are unbelievable. Last I checked, we've struggled BIG TIME the last few years. Our back-up QB, a true soph 15 months out of high school, making his first start of the year, goes 16-30 for 231 with no INTs, pretty much outplays a senior who is the 3rd ranked passer in college football, and people are pissed at him. Wow... Tell me how many times in the last 30 years a back-up QB for the Gophers has led us to a quality BCS win....
 



John Galt said:
The expectations of some of our fans are unbelievable. Last I checked, we've struggled BIG TIME the last few years. Our back-up QB, a true soph 15 months out of high school, making his first start of the year, goes 16-30 for 231 with no INTs, pretty much outplays a senior who is the 3rd ranked passer in college football, and people are pissed at him. Wow... Tell me how many times in the last 30 years a back-up QB for the Gophers has led us to a quality BCS win....
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Like I said, they are clueless.
 

John Galt said:
The expectations of some of our fans are unbelievable. Last I checked, we've struggled BIG TIME the last few years. Our back-up QB, a true soph 15 months out of high school, making his first start of the year, goes 16-30 for 231 with no INTs, pretty much outplays a senior who is the 3rd ranked passer in college football, and people are pissed at him. Wow... Tell me how many times in the last 30 years a back-up QB for the Gophers has led us to a quality BCS win....
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But... but... but.... he can't run!!!
 


Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Some folks don't expect that of the starting QB. It's probably unfair to expect it of the backup.
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No kidding, unless one has been reading Gopherhole the last four weeks. Than one would be incredibly surprised that Gray EVER completed a pass and when any of Shortell's didn't go for a TD. It seems like a lot of people started talking about what a "great ball" Max throws. How he looked so "cool under fire". Mentioned him in the same breath with Hohensee and Sauter. Played-up how well he looked against New Hampshire. Ignored his "misfires" against Western Michigan even after Coach Kill mentioned them. That the low center snaps were the reason he overthrew guys or stretched them up over the middle. He wasn't constantly throwing behind receivers, he was throwing "back shoulder" passes. They said to forget about Michigan while ignoring Purdue. Now they say you have to take them account to explain away his problems hitting open receivers. We even got people saying if you don't give him an A-...No, that's just to stupid to repeat.

Why some of these same people had already written-off Shortell before the season started. They had already gone onto the next football savior, Mr.Nelson. They were saying they'd understand if Max transferred, because he wouldn't play anyway.

Now any criticism is unfair? :confused:

They're off to a 4-0 and we just can't enjoy it. Maybe it's because it's an Election Year and to many people are conditioned to demonize the opposition. The problem is Shortell and Gray play on the same team.

The tone was set right after he UNLV game when the focus here was not the win but how lousy Gray was. How it was his fault they didn't win by 7 Touchdowns. Then after a big margin against UNH, where Gray and Max played well, more drumbeats that Shortell is obviously the superior QB. He's ready to start now and let's get on with it. A lot of people who still weren't sold on Gray as a Big Ten QB started defending him because of the level of heat he's was taking around here even when he was winning!

Like the vast majority of Gopher fans I just want them to win, and I don't really give a damn how they do it. Just saying that it's "bullbleep" for people to whine loudly about how it's not fair to complain about Max after they spent four weeks building him up. Yeah just four weeks because some of them were writing him off before that.

F-ing clueless indeed.
 

John Galt said:
The expectations of some of our fans are unbelievable. Last I checked, we've struggled BIG TIME the last few years. Our back-up QB, a true soph 15 months out of high school, making his first start of the year, goes 16-30 for 231 with no INTs, pretty much outplays a senior who is the 3rd ranked passer in college football, and people are pissed at him. Wow... Tell me how many times in the last 30 years a back-up QB for the Gophers has led us to a quality BCS win....
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There are a bunch of idiots that post on here. Just ignore them. I thought Max did great. Solid B. I thought Q was good when he played. But that is just me.
 

"just win baby, just win." Teams win games, not individuals. We should be happy were 4-0 and going to Iowa for another victory. We heading in the right direction finally! No haters, just positive juice. Drink the Kool-Aid.
 

John Galt said:
The expectations of some of our fans are unbelievable. Last I checked, we've struggled BIG TIME the last few years. Our back-up QB, a true soph 15 months out of high school, making his first start of the year, goes 16-30 for 231 with no INTs, pretty much outplays a senior who is the 3rd ranked passer in college football, and people are pissed at him. Wow... Tell me how many times in the last 30 years a back-up QB for the Gophers has led us to a quality BCS win....
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Sorry, you completely missed the point. Actually, you got the point and blew it way the heck out of proportion. All that was said, is that, if Gray had put up the numbers that Shortell did tonight, you guys would be drilling him into the ground.

Where does that say anything about our expectations? On the contrary, it is you "Start Shortell!! Gray sucks!!" folk that are delusional. The point being made, is that Gray still gives us the best chance to win, because he matches those numbers AND can run like a bull.

The point is, we have different expectations for Gray, but because Shortell is a Sophomore, he should start because he doesn't have the experience but can put up the same passing numbers. If you guys will screw your head on right for a second, you can realize that Gray is still the team's best option. This discussion wouldn't even be happening if we didn't have delusional fans who jump up and scream " OMG QB CONTROVERSY!!!!!11!!!!1!!" after Shortell leads a drive in garbage time against New Hampshire.

So calm down, get a class of water, and realize the context of what is being said. Gray plays like that against Syracuse, and he gets a C rating. Shortell plays like he did and he gets a B. Tell me what is wrong with that.
 

afurry91 said:
Sorry, you completely missed the point. Actually, you got the point and blew it way the heck out of proportion. All that was said, is that, if Gray had put up the numbers that Shortell did tonight, you guys would be drilling him into the ground.

Where does that say anything about our expectations? On the contrary, it is you "Start Shortell!! Gray sucks!!" folk that are delusional. The point being made, is that Gray still gives us the best chance to win, because he matches those numbers AND can run like a bull.

The point is, we have different expectations for Gray, but because Shortell is a Sophomore, he should start because he doesn't have the experience but can put up the same passing numbers. If you guys will screw your head on right for a second, you can realize that Gray is still the team's best option. This discussion wouldn't even be happening if we didn't have delusional fans who jump up and scream " OMG QB CONTROVERSY!!!!!11!!!!1!!" after Shortell leads a drive in garbage time against New Hampshire.

So calm down, get a class of water, and realize the context of what is being said. Gray plays like that against Syracuse, and he gets a C rating. Shortell plays like he did and he gets a B. Tell me what is wrong with that.
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My point is, when the program is where it is and you have a game like this (all the hype, momentum, sell out crowd) and your back up QB starts and throws for more yards against Syracuse than Matt Barkley or the Northwestern QB's combined, and throws less picks than them, and you win the game, you're going to come on here and post stuff like that...and say he didn't play good. And you know what, he's had 1/10 the playing time of Gray the previous 15 games, so ya, there may be just a little different expectation level. And for your info, Syracuse's pass defense was ranked in the top 20 in the nation going into this game, it's there run defense that sucked.
 

afurry91 said:
Sorry, you completely missed the point. Actually, you got the point and blew it way the heck out of proportion. All that was said, is that, if Gray had put up the numbers that Shortell did tonight, you guys would be drilling him into the ground.

Where does that say anything about our expectations? On the contrary, it is you "Start Shortell!! Gray sucks!!" folk that are delusional. The point being made, is that Gray still gives us the best chance to win, because he matches those numbers AND can run like a bull.

The point is, we have different expectations for Gray, but because Shortell is a Sophomore, he should start because he doesn't have the experience but can put up the same passing numbers. If you guys will screw your head on right for a second, you can realize that Gray is still the team's best option. This discussion wouldn't even be happening if we didn't have delusional fans who jump up and scream " OMG QB CONTROVERSY!!!!!11!!!!1!!" after Shortell leads a drive in garbage time against New Hampshire.

So calm down, get a class of water, and realize the context of what is being said. Gray plays like that against Syracuse, and he gets a C rating. Shortell plays like he did and he gets a B. Tell me what is wrong with that.
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I think you may have anger management issues. Just a thought.

For the record, we don't know how Gray would have been graded with those stats because for the second season in a row, he hasn't managed to make it to the start of BT play.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
I think you may have anger management issues. Just a thought.

For the record, we don't know how Gray would have been graded with those stats because for the second season in a row, he hasn't managed to make it to the start of BT play.
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Do you really have nothing better to do than to play therapist on a football board? Sad life, huh?
 

Gave him a B because he had no turnovers. Lots of room for improvement though. Saw several passes sail high or behind the receiver. 16 for 30 isn't really anything to brag about at all. Still think he did a good job though and made some timely throws that were on the mark. I think the passes behind the receiver could be corrected with more playing and practice time. Not sure about the high passes though. Maybe it was nerves or way too much energy. He seems to be a high energy guy and pretty fiery which I like but he needed a little more touch on several passes.
 

I've never understood the "Gray hate" that exists here. He's limited as a passer and not an ideal fit for Limegrover's offense, but the guy is a stud.

As for Shortell's performance, I'm not a hater, but I'm just trying to be as objective as possible and I'm not going to give him a B because of what my expectations were. If I had any expectations at all, they were probably a bit higher than his performance. I gave him a C+ because he missed a ton of receivers that were wide open on relatively easy throws. Part of the failure in those situations may lie with the receivers, most of whom are very inexperienced. That said, Max wasn't hitting the bulls-eye on those throws and almost got Goodger killed.

I fully agree with those who laud his playing within himself and not forcing throws.
 

50PoundHead said:
I've never understood the "Gray hate" that exists here. He's limited as a passer and not an ideal fit for Limegrover's offense, but the guy is a stud.

I fully agree with those who laud his playing within himself and not forcing throws.
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"Hate" is pretty strong. My frustration with Gray is the intangibles. Yes, he's not a very accurate thrower. That's the obvious, most acknowledge that, even the strong Gray supporters. So my expectations are that, from a throwing standpoint he is what he is and that hasn't changed and it's not changing anytime soon. I can accept that, QB's miss throws. Max missed on a bunch Saturday as well, no doubt about it.

I struggle with his absolute refusal to stay in the pocket for more than a millisecond. Leaving a pocket set up for him to deliver a ball downfield to open receivers. Yes, one time out of 4 he'll scramble for 6-10 yards and it looks great. Against BT defenses with BT athletes, he'll get sacked much more often than not.

I struggle with him not EVER (seriously) looking downfield once he DOES break the pocket. He never makes slight movements to buy himself more time, other than the ONE time that Studwell and I noted in the UNH game when he slid a little away from pressure and completed a 33-yard pass to Rabe.

Lastly, I'm just frustrated with how much improvement we heard about through Spring Ball and fall camp and nothing has changed. I came into this season, knowing what he's capable of and hearing about this improvement, thinking we could have a QB that could shock the Big Ten, lead them to 7 or 8 wins (or more), and really put the team on his back. And instead we see the things we saw last year.

He's a Gopher, he's given everything he has to the program, and when he's under center I'll be pulling for him 110% and I think he can do some positive things. But I just don't see a QB. I just don't see it. Every announcer that does Gopher games this year says the same things; he doesn't look comfortable in the pocket, he takes a long time to go through his progressions, he's leaving the pocket before he has to, etc. When one of the only things you can say about your QB is that he's a good runner, that's a problem.

I would also be able to stomach it more if he were an elite runner, like a Vick or even a D. Robinson but he's not. I think some of our fans, on a scale of 1-to-10, see Gray as like an 11 or 12 when he's more like a 7 or 8.

That being said, if this were next year or the year after that, when the Gophers should finally have a veteran O-Line filled with upperclassmen and they are pushing people around, the offense would probably produce pretty well with Gray at the helm. But this year, with the line still in full blown development mode, I think they'll need to throw it to be successful and that's why I think Shortell is a better fit this year.
 

"Backup Quarterback Syndrome" continues.

When Weber was the starter, there were loads of people on this board demanding (requesting) that Gray replace him. Now Gray is the starter, and people want him replaced by Shortell.

The Starter is The Starter for a reason; the Backup is The Backup for a reason.

I've said this before - please name one coach who evaluated his QB's, decided one QB gave his team the best chance to win - AND THEN started the other QB. Not going to happen.

Yes, Shortell is probably a better pure passer, and Gray is a better runner. The question is - and this a question that ONLY the coaching staff can answer - is the team better off with a running QB who can pass a little, or a passing QB who can run a little. So far, the coaching staff seems to believe that Gray (when healthy) gives the team a better chance to win. I'm willing to give the coaches the benefit of the doubt on this one.

BOTTOM LINE - The Gophs are 4-0. Quit Pi**ing and moaning, and enjoy the ride.
 

I gave him a B. His game reminded me a lot of Gray's UNLV game. Played well for stretches, did what he needed to do to win, but had some stretches where he missed some wide open stuff. If Shortell improves as much this week as Gray did after UNLV the team will be in good shape.

The one thing about Shortell is they run a significantly different offense when he's in there, and I tend to like a lot of what they do. More snaps under center, I-formation, etc. I don't personally get why we don't see any of that with Gray. No criticism of Gray (unless he's incapable of going under center which I highly doubt), more of a question for the coaches.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
I struggle with him not EVER (seriously) looking downfield once he DOES break the pocket.
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That's the biggest issue with Gray. However, it's one of those things where the grass is always greener. Gray is an extremely good runner. He might not be the caliber of Vick or Robinson, but he is still a very good runner. You can't say that style doesn't work in college after seeing him play against Iowa, Northwestern, Illinois and Michigan State last year. He was by far our best offensive player on the field in those games.

That said, you do miss out on some things with him. Shortell will connect on more throws deep because he isn't as good of a runner. He'll always look for the pass, even when breaking the pocket. At times, he'll look fantastic doing that. At other times, we'll all be thinking, "darn, he had 10 yards of open field in front of him".

The only part I disagree with your post, is your last paragraph. I think Gray is more suited for our team now and Shortell will be more suited for the team in the future. I think if our OL develops like we all think it will, we'll have a great running attack with our RBs. I think right now, we still need some of what Gray brings to the table (dragging defenders, making the first guy miss, spread option (essentially getting 1 free block). Where as I think in the future, with a good OL and a good running attack, Max will be fantastic. I think Max Shortell on 2nd and 4, is extremely dangerous.
 

Lakeville Goldy said:
I gave him a B. His game reminded me a lot of Gray's UNLV game. Played well for stretches, did what he needed to do to win, but had some stretches where he missed some wide open stuff. If Shortell improves as much this week as Gray did after UNLV the team will be in good shape.

The one thing about Shortell is they run a significantly different offense when he's in there, and I tend to like a lot of what they do. More snaps under center, I-formation, etc. I don't personally get why we don't see any of that with Gray. No criticism of Gray (unless he's incapable of going under center which I highly doubt), more of a question for the coaches.
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I gave him a B as well. I think he was better than Gray was against UNLV (even though I defended Gray on here after that game). Both games we left a lot of points on the board, but I don't think many of them were a result of Shortell's game this week.

I actually don't like how they run with Shortell in the game. I think it's a neccesity right now because we don't want Shortell taking hits. However, that limits our playbook quite a bit. I like the power running game, but I don't think it's how we built our team.
 

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