Minnesota H.S. football playoffs....

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I went to some of the semifinal games a few weeks ago, and I watched some of the Prep Bowl this weekend. A few thoughts....
Six classes is way too many. There really isn't much difference between classes 1-3. The 9 man thing can be left alone, combine classes 1-3 and 4-5. Three title games is plenty.

48 teams qualifying for "State" is a joke. Think about it. 48 teams?? If you average out each qualifying school at about 50 players, that's 2,400 kids who can say they went to "state" each year. Seems a bit excessive.

The atmosphere in the dome sucks. It's too big. Fans are too far away from the action. I'm sure it's fun for the players to play in such a venue, but I think they'd enjoy the experience of a packed house a whole lot more.

If weather is a factor for playing in the dome, how about this? End the season two weeks earlier. Don't let everyone make the playoffs. Play semifinal and final games at places like St. Cloud State, St. John's, or anywhere else that can seat 4000-5000 fans.

I really believe the MSHSL has ruined the state tournaments in football and basketball. Does anyone even watch the basketball tournament anymore? I go there every year and the whirlwind of games and teams reminds me of a weekend softball tournament.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?
 

The MSHSL wants the prep bowl on Thanksgiving weekend as the official end of the fall sports season.

On the classes, 4A is 623-1236 and 5A is >1236

Do you really want a school with an enrollment of 750 paired with EP or Wayzata?
 

I think the idea is to get a lot of kids involved. This makes it an attainable dream for a lot of teams. I would argue that it increases the competitiveness during the season: kids don't quit because they know there is a chance. I'm not one for participation trophies, and I definitely don't think rewarding quality football teams with a chance to play in a playoff falls under that category.
 

Still too many

Football is an odd duck in MN sports. To the principle that there are too many classes for football. I have to agree. How that number is pared down presents its own problems.

To eliminate even two classes, I would think that some of the smaller schools should be allowed the option to play 9-man. IT is in the middle portion where there could be larger classes.

For all other sports I'd be in favor of taking the census numbers from the schools. The lowest third by population is the class for them. The middle half of schools form the second class. The top quarter. The caviot I'd add is that private schools would have to play up one class.

Ski U Mah Gopher said:
The MSHSL wants the prep bowl on Thanksgiving weekend as the official end of the fall sports season.

On the classes, 4A is 623-1236 and 5A is >1236

Do you really want a school with an enrollment of 750 paired with EP or Wayzata?
Click to expand...
 

There are major differences between 3A, 2A, A and 9 -man.

In 9 man and A, just about 12 guys play the whole game.

A bit more subbing in 2A and 3A.

There maybe should be a smaller number of schools in 5A. Will an outstate 5A school ever have a chance to win a championship? Probably not, Brainerd did beat Wayzata last year in the quarters.
 


Analysis Could be interesting

Nemo makes an excellent point

It would be interesting to see what the playing patterns interms of personel usage are for schools in regards to their population.

At what population point do more than 15 players participate in more that 80 percent of offensive or defensive plays for their team?

Anyone can divide by 6 or 5 or 4 etc. But shouldn't the division points mean more than what is mathematically equal. There may be a very large resource/ participation difference between schools that are 100 to 150 that does not necessarily exist again until the difference is 250 students at schools at 850 to 1100.

There is something to be said for opportunity, but that opportunity should be to present a competition of coaching and talent among equals. Assuming that a single characteristic of population can determine what is "fair" is something close to relying on wishful thinking.

at
nemosgold said:
There are major differences between 3A, 2A, A and 9 -man.

In 9 man and A, just about 12 guys play the whole game.

A bit more subbing in 2A and 3A.

There maybe should be a smaller number of schools in 5A. Will an outstate 5A school ever have a chance to win a championship? Probably not, Brainerd did beat Wayzata last year in the quarters.
Click to expand...
 

Way too many teams, way too many classes

Its all about participtation, sportsmanship, and everyone is equal. Its social engineering by the MSHL. There is no Minnesota State Champion in any sport any more. 9 man is the only one with straight competition. Now you want to be 1,2,3,4, or 5a is up to you. Where is intrigue, where is Goliath vs David? Hoosiers? All gone for the sake of Jimmy or Johnny who never put the time in, but deserve a trophy.

They played with it a couple years ago in Basketball, but when push came to shove you had Litchfield traveling to Minneapolis North during the season and winning. But come tournement time no chance Litchfield could win the State Championship, rather take your 4a title and go home.

They should cut down the number of teams qualifying for state, they should regionalize the playoffs. 8 regions, 4 teams go to state. Two weekends and next year the finals are at TCF. Now if that means the 8 region finalists are Duluth Denfeld, Alexandria, Windom, Mankato West, Saint Cloud Catheral, Rochester Mayo, Cretin, and Eden Praire. Then lets go. You can seed them, site them, and may the best team win The Minnesota Highschool Football Championship.

Add to this, you get Dave Lee on the Broadcast, it just unbelievable.
 

Here in Wisconsin, theres 7 Divisions...and I think that that is way to much..but they won't change it. The thing i like about the playoff's here is that in order to get into the playoffs in Wisconsin, you have to have a winning record and at least 3 wins in conference. Another thing different here is that State is just the State Final, which I like a lot better. Reedsburg (where i live) went to state for the first time this year in division 3, and we brought 6 thousand people to Camp Randall (Reedsburg's population is a little over 8,000).
 

Times have changed guys!! This is not 1950-1990. AAU is here. Sports specialization is here. The high school program isn't all powerful anymore (unfortunately, imo.) You can complain about going back to the way it once was but that's not reality anymore.
 



Number of classes depends on the sport. I can understand six classes in football, although I would entertain arguments for 5. Basketball is where you need the class consolidation (4 to 3).

If you think Minnesota dilutes the quality of their "state tournament," I suggest looking to Washington. They have six classes in football, but those same six classes are applied to ALL OTHER SPORTS, with a full state tourney for each of the six classes. Also, their state tournaments have 16 teams instead of 8, so you're looking at 96 teams going to the state tourney instead of the 48 you get here. And all of that is done with about 50 less schools in the WIAA than in the MSHSL (382 vs. 429).
 

GopherRock said:
Number of classes depends on the sport. I can understand six classes in football, although I would entertain arguments for 5. Basketball is where you need the class consolidation (4 to 3).

If you think Minnesota dilutes the quality of their "state tournament," I suggest looking to Washington. They have six classes in football, but those same six classes are applied to ALL OTHER SPORTS, with a full state tourney for each of the six classes. Also, their state tournaments have 16 teams instead of 8, so you're looking at 96 teams going to the state tourney instead of the 48 you get here. And all of that is done with about 50 less schools in the WIAA than in the MSHSL (382 vs. 429).
Click to expand...

With Basketball you can have four class championships. Another thing you can easily do is play 4 more games with the champions and have Class A vs 4A in one game and Class 2A vs 3A... then the winners and losers play eachother. One or two guys can make a team in basketball.

You could really do that in any sport BUT football.

Maybe the best solution for football and any class sport is something similar to English football league system where teams rise and fall between the divisions.
 

I think it was around 94 and 95 that basketball had just one tourney. Both years a small school made the title. Fertile-Beltrami might have been one and Staples was the other. Seemed like FB got beat by a bunch but Staples had a half court 3 to tie it. Both losses were to El-Amin and MPLS North. It seemed to work perfectly and then they dropped it after two years.

Baseball isn't much better. They could definitely get down to 2 classes
 

"9 man is the only one with straight competition"

This is not true. There are teams that play 9-man during the year and then play 11 man in the playoffs and also those that switch to 9-man for playoffs. The system is just fine. Other states play more regular season games and have fewer make the playoffs. Mn has more make the playoffs and there are a number of reasons. 1. Participation 2. If you had fewer teams make the playoffs, you'd have to force teams to play in conferences with schools that are the same size. This would affect travel and costs for programs. There are conferences with 4A, 3A, and 2A teams in them. A 2A team could go 2-6 and be left out of the 2A tournament.

As a Gopher fan, you should want as many classes as possible. If fewer classes, many potential gophers would never be seen.
 



It is all about participation. Mama wants Billy to play in the state tournament too, you know. The state tournament in nearly every major sport has been absolutely destroyed by this stupid social engineering approach. I thought the two class basketball tournament with the large school winner playing the small school winner the next week was a real winner.
 

I think the class system in football is just fine. Since participation in football is much greater in football than other sports, increased enrollment is a big advantage. Keeping teams close together (in terms of enrollment) is the best way to go.

Basketball is a different story, however. With only about 8-10 players actually getting playing time, there is a much greater chance of a smaller school being able to compete against bigger schools. Unless something has changed, this is how they break it down in basketball:

4A - 64 school with highest enrollment
3A - next 64 schools
2A - next 128 schools
1A - the rest of the schools, usually is about 220 schools

I remember several years ago where a 4A section only had 7 teams in it, meaning the top seed only had to win 2 games to go to state. That's ridiculous. 4A and 3A should be combined if it were up to me.
 

I think the state should realign everything and take out a class and then balance the classes out again. Also, it wouldn't kill them to seed the state tournament. There are way to many blowouts in the state tournament because the field is so diluted due to too many classes.
 

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