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  1. #1

    Default What government do Egyptians want?

    First off - the first chapter of the revolt in Egypt has ended about as well as possible. The military is in control and that's the most stable institution they have. The question now is: what comes next?

    A poll was taken last year that gives some insight as to what Egyptians will vote for and rally around. Here's an article that details the results:

    http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...ly-Do-Want.htm


  2. #2

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    This should not be news to anyone. The ones to whom it is news will either not read it or choose not to believe it. Islam is not understood by Americans. This ignorance of Islam will cause extreme pain for America some day. Maybe some day soon. The chatter is very high right now.

  3. #3

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    I am a broken record, but if that's the system of government and laws that they prefer, why should we intervene to deny it to them? How is that a winning long term strategy or sustainable in any way? Muslims around the world who also want that type of government might move to Egypt. Or many moderates might leave Egypt. The free market determines how successful that system is economically. The people crave this system partly because it is denied to them. Give it to them and they may see it's not all it's cracked up to be. If you have faith that our way of life, or our religion is right, why do you have any fear? I would like to see those that are afraid of this news to think a few more moves ahead. What would a failed government run by the muslim brotherhood mean in the long run?

  4. #4

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    Another Iran. Another Afghanistan. Another Pakistan. Another Syria. Another Yemen. Another Islam Nuclear Bomb. Continue on. Sometimes pure Libertarianism means having your head in the sand.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by diehard View Post
    This should not be news to anyone. The ones to whom it is news will either not read it or choose not to believe it. Islam is not understood by Americans. This ignorance of Islam will cause extreme pain for America some day. Maybe some day soon. The chatter is very high right now.
    America has already lost the Middle East. And life will go on in the U.S, as always. However, it is time to bring the ground troops home. We have many other ways to protect our interests in the Middle East and everywhere else in the world.

    We need to get our financial house in order and that won't happen if we continue to write the military a blank check to send ground troops to fight unwinnable wars in foreign lands occupied by people whose families have lived there for thousands of years. It didn't work in Korea and Vietnam, and it is not going to work in the Middle East either.

    Iraq will be a client state of Iran within 10 years. Egypt is going to go its own way and it won't be in America's back pocket anymore. Israel is surrounded, and that is never going to change. That is the life they chose for themselves and they are welcome to it. I am not worried about Israel. They know how to take care of their enemies.

    Islamic extremists have three primary complaints against America:

    (1) America has army, navy, and air force bases all over the Middle East. We are the modern day Crusaders who Muslims have fought to protect their homelands for over a 1,000 years.

    (2) America helped create and continues to be the primary sponsor of Israel. Enough said. The world's fate was sealed in 1948 because Arabs were never going to agree to a Jewish state right in the middle of the Muslim world. It is a war that will never end because no people on earth are less afraid to die than Muslims. Since Israel's victory in the 1967 Six Day War, Muslim extremists have routinely fought back with terrorist acts all over the Middle East, Africa, and Europe. It wasn't until the first attack on the WTC in the early 1990's that the war finally reached America. Now we need to batten down the hatches and get control of our borders because for the first time in US history a foreign war has finally reached the shores of America.

    (3) Along with Great Britain, France, and other European colonial powers, America participated in dividing up the Ottoman Empire after WWI for the purpose of empire building and gaining access to Middle Eastern oil reserves. Toward that end we installed and propped up rulers who brutalized their own people and plundered the vast wealth of their countries. Egypt was a prime example of that.
    Last edited by UpnorthGo4; 02-12-2011 at 04:45 PM.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by diehard View Post
    Another Iran. Another Afghanistan. Another Pakistan. Another Syria. Another Yemen. Another Islam Nuclear Bomb. Continue on. Sometimes pure Libertarianism means having your head in the sand.
    But you aren't presenting me with a clear alternative. I don't support installing puppet regimes. I favor freedom. You're warning me that there is danger brewing, but unless I'm just missing something, you're not telling me what we should do about it?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Section2 View Post
    But you aren't presenting me with a clear alternative. I don't support installing puppet regimes. I favor freedom. You're warning me that there is danger brewing, but unless I'm just missing something, you're not telling me what we should do about it?
    Sec2- The point is that you have to choose which devil you want to deal with. In the Middle East - in Muslim nations you are always going to have something bad. For 30 years we gave backing to a dictator- very bad by our standards. But he was a partner for keeping the peace in the Middle East. Now we have a shot at "democracy". What will we get. I hope we miraculously get something resembling a democracy that is not unfriendly to Israel and who would upset thte delicate balance of peace in the region. If you look at what the people themselves are likely to vote for- it isn't anything like the smoke that CNN has been blowing.

    What can we do at this point now that we have participated in assisting the revolt with our words of support? Nothing but wait.

  8. #8

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    Assisting the revolt? I very much doubt we assisted in any significant way. I also don't really think we've had peace in the region. Maybe not outright war, but not peace either. It's like saying we've had a stable economy in the US. Nope, we've papered over some very serious problems and eventually things are going to need to get much worse before they get better. Put another way, I don't see how we can reach an equilibrium and find peace in the middle east on the path we've been. But I will admit to you and DH that my way could cause chaos for a long time. Your way may be better for the next 25 years. I just think in the long run, to have any kind of lasting peace and stability, the people will have to be allowed to choose their own way, make mistakes, and learn and correct their course.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Section2 View Post
    But you aren't presenting me with a clear alternative. I don't support installing puppet regimes. I favor freedom. You're warning me that there is danger brewing, but unless I'm just missing something, you're not telling me what we should do about it?
    Change at the hands of street demonstrators is change without form or design. The future of Egypt is now in the hands of the Army and Muslim Brotherhood. It is difficult to fix something when it clearly too late. Egypt has been a partner in the stalemated Arab-Israeli "peace process" (it doesn't exist in reality). It has been a truce that has held for 30 years with Israel, Egypt, and Jordan. All of which who have been dependent on huge amounts of US aid to survive.

    What should have happened? There should have been a different set of conditions for the aid they have received. Egypt should have been slowly reforming and moving towards a more prosperous, better educated, freer country. Free elections should have been tied to the aid. There should have been adequate time for the people of Egypt to consider what freedom and elections are and what they mean. They should have been in the process of developing political parties and structure to their form of democracy which surely can not be a Jeffersonian democracy.

    Why did we not do this over 30 years. The established political parties in America have only been concerned with attaining and holding on to power and providing government benefits to those who have been financing them.

    You and I and the rest of America have allowed this to go on since the beginning of the century as the "progressives" took root and began dominating American government. Why? We are either dumb or have been duped. Government schools have played a role as well with an ever declining level of education being provided and the principles of freedom and liberty ignored in the teachings as they celebrate progressivism.

    At least that is my story and I'm sticking with it (until the next post anyway).

    Oh, so what do we do now that we have failed in another area of national interest and diplomacy? As long as the Egyptian Army maintains order, we should support them and assist them using low profile techniques to set up moderate secular based alternatives for the new government. Panetta has the expertise and capacity to effect that if given the chance. Based on Obama's actions to date, I am not confident he has a green light. It has to have a charismatic Egyptian face to be successful and can not be or appear to be a US puppet. Totally possible,but I suspect Obama has other loyalties.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Section2 View Post
    Assisting the revolt? I very much doubt we assisted in any significant way. I also don't really think we've had peace in the region. Maybe not outright war, but not peace either. It's like saying we've had a stable economy in the US. Nope, we've papered over some very serious problems and eventually things are going to need to get much worse before they get better. Put another way, I don't see how we can reach an equilibrium and find peace in the middle east on the path we've been. But I will admit to you and DH that my way could cause chaos for a long time. Your way may be better for the next 25 years. I just think in the long run, to have any kind of lasting peace and stability, the people will have to be allowed to choose their own way, make mistakes, and learn and correct their course.
    The Egyptians have not had free elections since some time prior to the Pharaohs. This process is guaranteed to fail in the worst way if it isn't given enough time and that time is in years. Obama has been giving this revolt an assist since his speech in Cairo. Don't believe for a second it came all on its own by accident.

  11. #11

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    You're right again, dh. Those progressives bush, Cheney, and rove who were in charge at the beginning of the century screwed the pooch on this. Those darn progressives.

  12. #12

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    Glad we agree rural. They were/are indeed progressives. They just don't seem to be to some because Obama is on progressive steroids.

  13. #13

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    Ultimately it really doesn't matter what type of gov't the Eqyptians want. The U.S pays for their military and the U.S and Israel will have the last say who the next puppet is....Presumably they will try to put someone in who will try to break the country into factions (divide and conquer), same as we see in Iraq and Afghanistan......A real democracy in the middle east is the last thing the U.S wants to see....No money in it....a divided Eqypt will give them the chance to go after Iran, that's what they ultimately want...

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by diehard View Post
    Glad we agree rural. They were/are indeed progressives. They just don't seem to be to some because Obama is on progressive steroids.
    You realize that obama is the president right? That means the most powerful person in the world, now please name me some progressive things he has done while president. Most progressives think Obama is a republican sell out. Calling Obama a progressive is like calling Ronnie Reagan or Geroge Bush a fiscal conservative.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeGuy View Post
    Ultimately it really doesn't matter what type of gov't the Eqyptians want. The U.S pays for their military and the U.S and Israel will have the last say who the next puppet is....Presumably they will try to put someone in who will try to break the country into factions (divide and conquer), same as we see in Iraq and Afghanistan......A real democracy in the middle east is the last thing the U.S wants to see....No money in it....a divided Eqypt will give them the chance to go after Iran, that's what they ultimately want...
    Canada should really try to get a seat at the table, don't you think?

  16. #16

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    I kind of like the new edgey rural. Got some life to him.

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