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Thread: Dream Act

  1. #1
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    Default Dream Act

    I don't understand why people want to punish people who were brought here as children if they have lived good lives and will contribute to America by joining the army or going to college. Also they don't even get citizenship they get a green card and a PATHWAY to citizenship.

    BGA and Diehard what is the reason the right hates this bill so much?


    Also how far has the right gone when in 2003 Mccain, Hatch and other republicans were for the more liberal version of the bill. Its so sad that to gain power in the "christian right" party you have to be the one who shows the most hate to the powerless.


    I guess Immortal technique said it best when he said "this *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# is run by fake Christians and fake politicians look at their mansions and look at the conditions we live in."



    With regard to the DREAM Act, a lot of these kids are brought in as infants. They don't even know that they're not citizens until they graduate from high school. If they've lived good lives, if they've done good things, why would we penalize them and not let them at least go to school?" Hatch Quote on the dream act

    Also he introduced the bill in 2001!


  2. #2

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    Wrong color skin.

  3. #3

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    It's a sad day in our country when we decide that children should be held responsible for the mistakes of their parents.

  4. #4

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    I don't really follow this issue closely, but from my view, most Republicans are confused by the Tea Party movement, and don't really get it. Like a lot of progressives, they think it's just a far "right" group that is gaining power, and so they are trying to figure out which stances to take to not anger them. This is of course totally wrong, but these are politicians we're talking about. I could be absolutely wrong though, I don't follow this stuff as closely. I would like to provide a path to citizenship for illegals that involved some kind of payment, or extraordinary volunteer work or something similar. It seems most people either want everyone in or everyone out.

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    I would like everyone to get in line an come and stay in America legally. Every last one. That is the difference here. Some believe that laws mean something and others only want to follow the laws they find convenience.

    If you don't like the law,then to change it for future cases, not past. We do need immigration reform just as we need health care reform. We need to change them for the better, not for the worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brew_recruit View Post
    I guess Immortal technique said it best when he said "this *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# is run by fake Christians and fake politicians look at their mansions and look at the conditions we live in."
    And Chuck D said...

    Be careful of the hand
    When it's coming from the left
    I ain't trippin just watch your step
    Can't truss it

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehard View Post
    I would like everyone to get in line an come and stay in America legally. Every last one. That is the difference here. Some believe that laws mean something and others only want to follow the laws they find convenience.

    If you don't like the law,then to change it for future cases, not past. We do need immigration reform just as we need health care reform. We need to change them for the better, not for the worse.
    I agree 100%. Of course I'm far Left of most Democrats. I WANT immigrants to come to the United States!!! My reasons are pragmatic though, not due to racial self-loathing or PC brainwashing.

    It's math. The number of people about to retire or on assistance vs. the number of active workers paying in does not work mathematically over the next 20-30 years. It's a Ponzi scheme & in order to keep Social Security, Medicare, Welfare & now Health Care flowing we need new blood paying in, it's that simple. So, I say completely OVERHAUL the immigration process. I've heard (Can not prove) that there's a 20 year waiting list for Mexicans to get an interview for a Green Card if they follow procedure in Mexico. If so, that's nuts & I'd jump the border too! Make the processing time less than 90 days. Invest a trillion in something that can shape our nation (for the better!) for years to come, instead of funding the "War of Terror". Lower the application fee from $1,420 to $150 + $500 to be repaid ("No interest" loan, repaid from future earnings) if you're approved & get everyone who passes a background check documented ASAP. Get them into mandatory English classes, mandatory orientation classes for life in the United States, get them driver's licenses, get their kids into school, help them buy houses, help their kids go to college & get that pipeline of workers paying into the system.

    Conversely, I'm absolutely against the status quo of free flow across the border with no regulation or security, under the table wages & believe illegals should be denied work, denied driver's licenses, public education for their kids (even if they're anchor babies), denied free medical, etc.

    Immigration: Like drugs, "Legalize it, don't criticize it"

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brew_recruit View Post
    I don't understand why people want to punish people who were brought here as children if they have lived good lives and will contribute to America by joining the army or going to college. Also they don't even get citizenship they get a green card and a PATHWAY to citizenship.

    BGA and Diehard what is the reason the right hates this bill so much?


    Also how far has the right gone when in 2003 Mccain, Hatch and other republicans were for the more liberal version of the bill. Its so sad that to gain power in the "christian right" party you have to be the one who shows the most hate to the powerless.


    I guess Immortal technique said it best when he said "this *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# is run by fake Christians and fake politicians look at their mansions and look at the conditions we live in."



    With regard to the DREAM Act, a lot of these kids are brought in as infants. They don't even know that they're not citizens until they graduate from high school. If they've lived good lives, if they've done good things, why would we penalize them and not let them at least go to school?" Hatch Quote on the dream act

    Also he introduced the bill in 2001!
    You have to take the Dream Act in context. On the surface it seems nice. Then add reality.

    Reality is that we have no control of the borders.

    We have an annual cost in the range of $200 billion because of illegals.

    We aren't the least bit serious about enforcing current immigration laws.

    We have close to 10 % unemployment of our own citizens.

    I think if we were serious about enforcement and controlling the borders then there might be a little more sympathy for the Dream Act. But considering the current picture there is no way that we should be enacting further laws that are an incentive for illegal acts. Bring this back up when we have controlled the borders and don't have a huge illegal immigration issue. If we don't value citizenship in our country more, then citizenship in America will someday soon lose its value.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bga1 View Post
    You have to take the Dream Act in context. On the surface it seems nice. Then add reality.

    Reality is that we have no control of the borders.

    We have an annual cost in the range of $200 billion because of illegals.

    We aren't the least bit serious about enforcing current immigration laws.

    We have close to 10 % unemployment of our own citizens.

    I think if we were serious about enforcement and controlling the borders then there might be a little more sympathy for the Dream Act. But considering the current picture there is no way that we should be enacting further laws that are an incentive for illegal acts. Bring this back up when we have controlled the borders and don't have a huge illegal immigration issue. If we don't value citizenship in our country more than citizenship in America will someday soon lose its value.
    Beeg, if we invested in integrating immigrants into the system right now it'd pay off in spades down the road, imo. We're not going to ship 20,000,000+ illegals + family who joined them + US born children out of the country. The horse has left the barn.

    I agree 100% current immigration laws are meaningless & unenforced (my words).

    For argument's sake though, I suggest that the many hard working immigrants will do a better job, for a lesser price than their American counterparts & that, that's good business & an example of the free market & moreover the American Dream at work.

    I mean this in the least condescending way possible. The Republicans are shoulder deep in this "Globalization" push & North American Union stuff with the Democrats. It's going to make citizenship obsolete & both the left & the right should agree this is bad, but instead everyone's afraid to questions "Globalism", lest they be called an "Isolationist". I see no Republican resistance to this new "Global economy" outside of Ron Paul. They're ALL CFR members. Bush, Cheney (Ex-President of the CFR), Rice, Rumsfeld, down the line they're all members & leaders of the CFR. This group of course includes the Clintons, the Kerry/Hienz's, the Gore's, Pelosi, etc. etc. All on the same "Global" team.

    Here's an excerpt from the CFR website....

    Richard N. Haass, President, Council on Foreign Relations


    "As a result, new mechanisms are needed for regional and global governance that include actors other than states. This is not to argue that Microsoft, Amnesty International, or Goldman Sachs be given seats in the United Nations General Assembly, but it does mean including representatives of such organisations in regional and global deliberations when they have the capacity to affect whether and how regional and global challenges are met.

    Moreover, states must be prepared to cede some sovereignty to world bodies if the international system is to function."

    http://www.cfr.org/publication/9903/...alisation.html

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by diehard View Post
    I would like everyone to get in line an come and stay in America legally. Every last one. That is the difference here. Some believe that laws mean something and others only want to follow the laws they find convenience.

    If you don't like the law,then to change it for future cases, not past. We do need immigration reform just as we need health care reform. We need to change them for the better, not for the worse.
    Hang'em high right?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnboiler View Post
    Hang'em high right?
    Please expand on what you intended to mean with this comment.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Costa Rican Gopher View Post
    I agree 100%. Of course I'm far Left of most Democrats. I WANT immigrants to come to the United States!!! My reasons are pragmatic though, not due to racial self-loathing or PC brainwashing.

    It's math. The number of people about to retire or on assistance vs. the number of active workers paying in does not work mathematically over the next 20-30 years. It's a Ponzi scheme & in order to keep Social Security, Medicare, Welfare & now Health Care flowing we need new blood paying in, it's that simple. So, I say completely OVERHAUL the immigration process. I've heard (Can not prove) that there's a 20 year waiting list for Mexicans to get an interview for a Green Card if they follow procedure in Mexico. If so, that's nuts & I'd jump the border too! Make the processing time less than 90 days. Invest a trillion in something that can shape our nation (for the better!) for years to come, instead of funding the "War of Terror". Lower the application fee from $1,420 to $150 + $500 to be repaid ("No interest" loan, repaid from future earnings) if you're approved & get everyone who passes a background check documented ASAP. Get them into mandatory English classes, mandatory orientation classes for life in the United States, get them driver's licenses, get their kids into school, help them buy houses, help their kids go to college & get that pipeline of workers paying into the system.

    Conversely, I'm absolutely against the status quo of free flow across the border with no regulation or security, under the table wages & believe illegals should be denied work, denied driver's licenses, public education for their kids (even if they're anchor babies), denied free medical, etc.

    Immigration: Like drugs, "Legalize it, don't criticize it"
    The problem with many of our own citizens is that they aren't properly plugged into education and long term employment/career planning. If we've failed with our own, what makes you think we'll be any more successful with people that haven't demonstrated personal development in their own country and don't even speak the language (I speculate, I have no idea what the average education level of a Mexican immigrant is). The concern (I believe valid) is that we'll broadly expand the lower class, they'll end up being a burden to society, and they will never have the means to pay taxes and they aren't going to care for you in your old age. We'll jump out of the frying pan right into the fire.

    And, if I were a member of the American lower class I'd be pissed if American resources were diverted from helping me get educated (etc, etc) and given to immigrants. I don't know the answer to all of this, and most of this is theory, but I think it is fact that we haven't figured out how to raise up our own. So until we demonstrate otherwise you'd have to assume we'd screw them (immigrants) up too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diehard View Post
    Please expand on what you intended to mean with this comment.
    Make an example of illegal immigrants. Lock them up, send them home no questions asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas-Gopher View Post
    The problem with many of our own citizens is that they aren't properly plugged into education and long term employment/career planning. If we've failed with our own, what makes you think we'll be any more successful with people that haven't demonstrated personal development in their own country and don't even speak the language (I speculate, I have no idea what the average education level of a Mexican immigrant is). The concern (I believe valid) is that we'll broadly expand the lower class, they'll end up being a burden to society, and they will never have the means to pay taxes and they aren't going to care for you in your old age. We'll jump out of the frying pan right into the fire.

    And, if I were a member of the American lower class I'd be pissed if American resources were diverted from helping me get educated (etc, etc) and given to immigrants. I don't know the answer to all of this, and most of this is theory, but I think it is fact that we haven't figured out how to raise up our own. So until we demonstrate otherwise you'd have to assume we'd screw them up too.
    Thoughts...

    I see your point on expanding the lower class & there's no doubt that would happen to some extent. However, between the Bi-Partisan commitment to "Globalization"/Nafta/Cafta + 20,000,000 illegals already in the country + relatives joining them + anchor babies + a mostly unguarded border (I've advocated here for years that we abandon our overseas empire & wars to instead focus on National Security by manning our own borders)...the horse has left the barn. So "this is happening" as they say & I think we're better off documenting them, making them pay taxes & planning for it now than rather than ignoring it & paying the price later.

    Generally with immigrants it's the 2nd generation that really becomes part of the system, speaks English 1st language, goes to college, etc. The first generation are generally laborers & we can use laborers.

    There will be no welfare system for those folks to suckle off soon if if they don't pay in. Just like the foreign wars & Federal Reserve Ponzi schemes, they're coming to an end because math doesn't lie.

    Here in Minneapolis I haven't met a single unemployed immigrant yet. The ones I know all work. Perhaps it's "Machismo" but the idea of a man not working is beyond embarrassing to most foreign men.

    I was away from Mpls for almost 18 years & I was shocked when I came back this summer that the worst parts of the South side that once saw burnt out buildings & crack dealers on the corners are now thriving immigrant community's.

    As for the existing lower class being pissed about spending money on immigrants instead of them, I doubt they'd notice. They already don't seem to notice that the people they vote for currently are sending their jobs overseas via Nafta & allowing illegals to work here. As crazy as it sounds, I bet MOST lower class people probably think of "Globalization" as a good thing. In fact, many are so unaware of what's going on I bet we could literally offer medical marijuana & a PlayStation3 to the existing monthly benefits & get over 50% to vote "Yes" to their own demise.

  15. #15

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    CRG, I agree with most of what you're saying (those that are here, etc). However, much is also speculation. Once they become a part of the US "system", they will be elligible for tax returns, even though a min wage job with kids won't require any paying in (who wouldn't take what's handed to them for free). I know a number of Americans that fall into this category right now. And, IMO, the economy is changing faster than most people have figured out how to change with it. Many, if not the majority of the jobs/careers in existence right now will soon dramatically change if not disappear altogether as the economy evolves. I think it's risky (IMO) to bet on people that haven't shown a high level of engagement with education and personal development. We'll see. I think our competitors (other nations) have high requirements for immigrants and we probably should also.

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