Is Brewster really that bad.

jovs said:

This is tubby's third recruiting class. He arrived late for the first one, the second one was decent, and the third was decimated by off court issues. He is still building depth. I think the basketball program is still in pretty good shape. They have three losses by one basket two of them in overtime. It wouldn't take much to make this team 8-4 and in contention for the big ten title. Tell me the football program is that close. Football is exponentially more difficult to turn around so the comparison is unfair.

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I think the football team has much more depth than the basketball. Johnson and Westbrook are gone next year. Toss that in with questions regarding Nolan and whether Mbakwe's trial will be resolved in a satisfactory manner and any depth they had could be decimated. Fortunately things can turn fast in college basketball with bringing in the right players. Hopefully Tubby can land Cory Joseph and he will be part of the solution.

Ron Johnson Super Fan said:

Let me rephrase my argument in another way. Why is it that 99% (unscientific number I just made up) of the fans are willing to give Tubby more time on the job and far, far fewer are willing to give Brewster more time? They have both had similar results and neither have their programs where they want to be. Why does Tubby need more time to get things rolling then Brewster does? Brewster should be given enough time to get it done just like Tubby should.

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Because of Tubby's past and what he's done since he's been here. I wish it wasn't taking Tubby this long, but this season, due partly to things that are not his fault went off the rails. His first two years were as good as any rational fan would have hoped. You can't say that about Brewster. Also, as others have pointed out, we've lost a lot of close games this year. It's very easy to imagine that with just one of White or Mbakwe back and a full year of Nolen, we'd have won the Portland, Miami, MSU, @Indiana and @ NW games all of which we lost by a possession or two. Then we'd be sitting 19-5, 8-4, not 14-10 5-7. The OSU and Michigan were the only two 'embarassing' losses so far. Despite this disappointing season, there's every reason to believe that if Nolen and Mbakwe return, we will have a very solid team next year. Even better if we get either Cory Joseph or White comes back.

We have no solid evidence that things are going to get any better under Brewster. If we had lost the PSU game 20-17 instead of 20-0 and the Iowa game 24-17 instead of 12-0 and won the SDSU game 42-13 instead of 16-13 I think everyone would feel a lot better about Brewster's coaching abilities even though the record wouldn't have changed. All he has to hang his hat on so far is recruiting. And his most recently class just finished somewhere between 6th and dead last. So it doesn't appear anyone is coming to save us. Now he faces a brutal 2010 schedule where we're being conditioned to consider 6-6 a great triumph.

Brewster v Tubby

Ron Johnson Super Fan said:

Let me rephrase my argument in another way. Why is it that 99% (unscientific number I just made up) of the fans are willing to give Tubby more time on the job and far, far fewer are willing to give Brewster more time? They have both had similar results and neither have their programs where they want to be. Why does Tubby need more time to get things rolling then Brewster does? Brewster should be given enough time to get it done just like Tubby should.

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For one, both coaches have NOT had similar results. Tubby has had significantly better results than Brewster. Brewster is 1-11, 7-6, and 6-7 if you want look at record alone. He has no signature wins, no trophy wins, and no wins after Halloween. His teams also seem to lack an identity, likely because he can't keep any consistency in his assistant coaches/coordinators. His teams also tend to not look competitive against the better teams in the conference.

Tubby on the other hand has won 20 games in each of his first two seasons and brought us to the NCAA's last year. He has signature wins (Louisville 2008, Butler 2009, Ohio State 2009). His team is still likely to win near 20 games this year despite missing three impact players for a good portion of the season. His teams are in almost every game and have a clear identity, pressure defense. This year they were very successful with this defense until they lost Al Nolen.

If I had to put my faith in one of these coaches it wouldn't even be close. Tubby is clearly performing well above the talent level of his team right now and he'll continue to bring this team into NCAA consideration as long as he is with us. We are fortunate to have him.

Heber said:

For one, both coaches have NOT had similar results. Tubby has had significantly better results than Brewster. Brewster is 1-11, 7-6, and 6-7 if you want look at record alone. He has no signature wins, no trophy wins, and no wins after Halloween. His teams also seem to lack an identity, likely because he can't keep any consistency in his assistant coaches/coordinators. His teams also tend to not look competitive against the better teams in the conference.

Tubby on the other hand has won 20 games in each of his first two seasons and brought us to the NCAA's last year. He has signature wins (Louisville 2008, Butler 2009, Ohio State 2009). His team is still likely to win near 20 games this year despite missing three impact players for a good portion of the season. His teams are in almost every game and have a clear identity, pressure defense. This year they were very successful with this defense until they lost Al Nolen.

If I had to put my faith in one of these coaches it wouldn't even be close. Tubby is clearly performing well above the talent level of his team right now and he'll continue to bring this team into NCAA consideration as long as he is with us. We are fortunate to have him.

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Heber - No doubt Tubby is the higher rated coach. The concern is the trajectory of the program. Last year he clearly did a fine coaching job and got the team through the close games. I give him credit for that. By the same token - this year they have lost most all of the close games and the talent he has recruited has big time legal issues- and he has to take the blame (though he refuses any of it currently). You can't get credit for recruits that don't hit the floor. So the future of our talent base (for the next two years) is in serious doubt. Brewster certainly has a lot to prove in game coaching, but he does leave one with a feeling that he is going all out to find better and better talent and there is not the same uncertainty about whether or not they will play.

Tubby Smith's Trajectory

bga1 said:

Heber - No doubt Tubby is the higher rated coach. The concern is the trajectory of the program. Last year he clearly did a fine coaching job and got the team through the close games. I give him credit for that. By the same token - this year they have lost most all of the close games and the talent he has recruited has big time legal issues- and he has to take the blame (though he refuses any of it currently). You can't get credit for recruits that don't hit the floor. So the future of our talent base (for the next two years) is in serious doubt. Brewster certainly has a lot to prove in game coaching, but he does leave one with a feeling that he is going all out to find better and better talent and there is not the same uncertainty about whether or not they will play.

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Are you concerned with the trajectory of the UCONN program? They are in serious danger of being on the outside looking in just like the Gophers. I personally, am not. UCONN will rebound. They have a good coach and a good base of players. They will rebound.

I feel the same way about the Gophers. It is easy to panic and say the program is on the way down. The truth is, however, that this program is simply having a "down" year. The Gophers were hit in the worst possible way, basically losing two entire positions with the loss of those three players. The only true point guard on the team is Cobbs. The only true PF's on the team were White and Mbakwe. The loss of a ball-handler is killing this team. Joseph and Westbrook are 2 guards and turning the ball over way too much. Sampson and Iverson basically have no help on the boards. Carter and Johnson do what they can but they are primarily suited to play the 3. Having inadequate ball-handlers and rebounders are the reason this team is losing close games. It is not having an inadequate coach.

This team was simply ill-prepared to lose those three players. If you want to blame this on Tubby, be my guest. I personally think that is way too harsh. Blame the athletes. Tubby cannot watch over them 24/7. Young kids make mistakes and are ultimately responsible for their actions.

The Gophers have a very good nucleus of players poised to come back in 2010 (Sampson, Joseph, Mbakwe, Hoffarber, Carter). This team WILL win 20 games next year. They will be in the thick of the race to make the tournament and will likely be a lot better in 2011-2012 when Joseph/Sampson/Mbakwe are seniors. This season has been high on disappointment, yes. But this team is also high on potential.

P.S. White has NOT had big time legal issues. He has a couple of misdemeanors all which happened in one bad week. The guy should be forgiven. He has paid a big price for his actions and will need to learn from his mistakes. To call petty theft and trespassing in a dorm big time legal issues is a little over the top.

Heber said:

Are you concerned with the trajectory of the UCONN program? They are in serious danger of being on the outside looking in just like the Gophers. I personally, am not. UCONN will rebound. They have a good coach and a good base of players. They will rebound.

I feel the same way about the Gophers. It is easy to panic and say the program is on the way down. The truth is, however, that this program is simply having a "down" year. The Gophers were hit in the worst possible way, basically losing two entire positions with the loss of those three players. The only true point guard on the team is Cobbs. The only true PF's on the team were White and Mbakwe. The loss of a ball-handler is killing this team. Joseph and Westbrook are 2 guards and turning the ball over way too much. Sampson and Iverson basically have no help on the boards. Carter and Johnson do what they can but they are primarily suited to play the 3. Having inadequate ball-handlers and rebounders are the reason this team is losing close games. It is not having an inadequate coach.

This team was simply ill-prepared to lose those three players. If you want to blame this on Tubby, be my guest. I personally think that is way too harsh. Blame the athletes. Tubby cannot watch over them 24/7. Young kids make mistakes and are ultimately responsible for their actions.

The Gophers have a very good nucleus of players poised to come back in 2010 (Sampson, Joseph, Mbakwe, Hoffarber, Carter). This team WILL win 20 games next year. They will be in the thick of the race to make the tournament and will likely be a lot better in 2011-2012 when Joseph/Sampson/Mbakwe are seniors. This season has been high on disappointment, yes. But this team is also high on potential.

P.S. White has NOT had big time legal issues. He has a couple of misdemeanors all which happened in one bad week. The guy should be forgiven. He has paid a big price for his actions and will need to learn from his mistakes. To call petty theft and trespassing in a dorm big time legal issues is a little over the top.

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Actually UConn is an interesting situation. Calhoun has been a recruiting machine for years. Health issues will likely bring that to an end. Will the next guy maintain the trajectory or is this the end of a great run at the elite level. Arizona is another such case.

We've not seen Tubby here in this situation for long. His past major posts - have a far better recruiting base than does Minny. Will Tubby at this age have what it takes to recruit to Minny?
Perhaps his good name and the respect it brings alone are enough. Perhpas not. I think we should be concerned though not in a panic.

Look these next few years are HUGE for our program- if he has difficulty after this year people will say that NO ONE can do the job because HOF coach Tubby Smith couldn't. it's really crucial that he gets the train back on the tracks next year in a big way.

Regarding White- if my own child had had this list of violations in the past year- I would be saying that he/she has major legal issues. One isolated incident- maybe not. A string like this -yes.

to reply to your subject

YES, Brewster is awful.

bga1 said:

Actually UConn is an interesting situation. Calhoun has been a recruiting machine for years. Health issues will likely bring that to an end. Will the next guy maintain the trajectory or is this the end of a great run at the elite level. Arizona is another such case.

We've not seen Tubby here in this situation for long. His past major posts - have a far better recruiting base than does Minny. Will Tubby at this age have what it takes to recruit to Minny?
Perhaps his good name and the respect it brings alone are enough. Perhpas not. I think we should be concerned though not in a panic.

Look these next few years are HUGE for our program- if he has difficulty after this year people will say that NO ONE can do the job because HOF coach Tubby Smith couldn't. it's really crucial that he gets the train back on the tracks next year in a big way.

Regarding White- if my own child had had this list of violations in the past year- I would be saying that he/she has major legal issues. One isolated incident- maybe not. A string like this -yes.

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There are several schools that are percieved as top jobs now that have had only one legendary coach in place for a long time. It will be interesting to see the fall-out as these legends leave one-by-one. Arizona was the first. They were nothing special before Lute Olsen, what will happen now? UConn was nothing before Calhoun, what will happen when he leaves? When Boeheim leave Syracuse? It will depend who the successor is. I think Arizona will be fine because Sean Miller's a heckuva coach. If any of them try to hand-off to some long-time assistant, it may not work though. (See Bill Guthridge.) Kansas, UK, UCLA, UNC have all maintained greatness through multiple generations and coaches. Those second-level schools have not.

I think Tubby will be fine. The earlier post that Tubby had easier recruiting bases at his prior stops is wrong. Obviously it was easier at UK. But it Minnesota is an easier place to recruit then Georgia or Tulsa. Not even close.

But if it doesn't work out, I disagree that this job becomes some sort of untouchable waste-land. It can be argued that Monson is the only coach in the last 40 years who hasn't succeeded to a large degree. Mussleman won here. So did Dutcher. So did Clem. Yes, other things happened to mitigate thier success. But we have proven over multiple coaches that we can win here.

howeda7 said:

It can be argued that Monson is the only coach in the last 40 years who hasn't succeeded to a large degree. Mussleman won here. So did Dutcher. So did Clem. Yes, other things happened to mitigate thier success. But we have proven over multiple coaches that we can win here.

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This is the big difference. Brew is taking a program that nobody has been able to win at for 40 plus years vs Tubby and a program that has had a lot of success over the last 40 years, with multiple coaches.

ruralgopher said:

This is the big difference. Brew is taking a program that nobody has been able to win at for 40 plus years vs Tubby and a program that has had a lot of success over the last 40 years, with multiple coaches.

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This is true. However, Brew also didn't take over a program in shambles the way Tubby did. And ultimately, the bar Brewster has to jump over is lower. While we'd all love a Rose Bowl, chances are if even got us to a couple OutBack bowls everyone would love him. That's about the eqivalent of getting to the second round of the NCAA tournament. Right now, we'd all be thrilled with that level of production out of Tubby. But eventually we'll want more. This is a basketball school now, and has been for those same 40 years. I don't see it changing back into a football school anytime soon.

howeda7 said:

This is true. However, Brew also didn't take over a program in shambles the way Tubby did. And ultimately, the bar Brewster has to jump over is lower. While we'd all love a Rose Bowl, chances are if even got us to a couple OutBack bowls everyone would love him. That's about the eqivalent of getting to the second round of the NCAA tournament. Right now, we'd all be thrilled with that level of production out of Tubby. But eventually we'll want more. This is a basketball school now, and has been for those same 40 years. I don't see it changing back into a football school anytime soon.

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The bar always gets risen. Mason is a perfect example of that. If you would have said during the end of the Wacker era that the next coach would make us a consistent bowl team, even putting up a couple of w's over the likes of Alabama and Oregon, and still get fired for performance reasons no one would have believed you. If Brew gets us to multiple Outback bowls you can bet that the next thing will be not getting over the hump from top 3 to champion, that is just the way things work.

ruralgopher said:

This is the big difference. Brew is taking a program that nobody has been able to win at for 40 plus years vs Tubby and a program that has had a lot of success over the last 40 years, with multiple coaches.

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A lot of success? 2 Big Ten titles in the last 73 years? 4 trips to the Tourney in the last 20 years (the last 3 of those one and done)?

Maximus said:

A lot of success? 2 Big Ten titles in the last 73 years? 4 trips to the Tourney in the last 20 years (the last 3 of those one and done)?

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4 trips? I count 1990, 94, 95, 97, 99, 05 and 09. That's 7 and was during a huge academic fallout period. Or are you being puritan and disregarding those vacated? Two Big 10 titles, would have been more if not for ineligble teams in 1977, etc.