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jamiche

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I hope this thread doesn't descend into a "you never played/coached the game so you know nothing" discussion but I would love to get feedback from anyone on the board who has coached or played at a high school level or above on the Gophers' current half court offense.

I never played past 10th grade, and I wasn't any good anyway, but I have spent probably far too many waking hours watching hoops (it's what gets me through the winter) and the assessment is the obvious. The half court sets involve very little movement; what movement there is, is highly predictable (e.g. Hoff runs back and forth along the baseline rarely varying his pattern); very little ball movement;no backdoor cuts; the ball goes in the post, the defense collapses, the ball doesn't come back out; one guy dribbling, four guys standing around, etc.

The basic question is why do the Gophers run such a stagnant half court offense, particularly with only one guy who can get his own shot (Westbrook)? A more active offense seems very teachable. What am I missing?
 

i think there are a couple issues. first of all westbrook (and the last couple games joseph has been showing some promise) is the only guard out there who can really create his own shots and be fairly good when doing it. therefore we need sets to get players like the Hoff open shots or else we need to be aggressive in transition. i think we have been aggressive in transition and that has been helped by our defense. i think another issue is we dont really come off picks as tight as i would personally like and most of the guys setting the picks are either not very big or pose no real threat to roll to the hoop, catch the ball in traffic, and make an athletic move to score the ball (this makes it easier for the bigs on the other team to show on high picks and put more pressure on the guard and push the offense out further or cause it to look herky jerky and look out of sync). this makes it tough especially in the big 10 where the refs allow the players to be more physical on defense. our team as a whole struggles to throw good passes to the post and the post players struggle to hold their spot on the block. this allows the D to push everything further out and adds to the problems. not having a legit scoring threat out of the post adds to the issues as well. yesterday johnson had a matchup that wasn't all that good for him with morgan on him but i would like to see him get the ball more often around the elbows and allow him to face up and shoot when smaller players are on him or try to take his guy to the hoop if he is a slower power forward. i think the bigs need another year in the weight room and we need a legit scoring guard and a lot of these problems will fade. just my assessment, others may have different opinions.
 

One Reason (Maybe)

Izzo is a superior defensive coach. He made halftime adjustments to stop what worked for Gophers in first half.

Maybe.
 

jamiche said:
I hope this thread doesn't descend into a "you never played/coached the game so you know nothing" discussion but I would love to get feedback from anyone on the board who has coached or played at a high school level or above on the Gophers' current half court offense.

I never played past 10th grade, and I wasn't any good anyway, but I have spent probably far too many waking hours watching hoops (it's what gets me through the winter) and the assessment is the obvious. The half court sets involve very little movement; what movement there is, is highly predictable (e.g. Hoff runs back and forth along the baseline rarely varying his pattern); very little ball movement;no backdoor cuts; the ball goes in the post, the defense collapses, the ball doesn't come back out; one guy dribbling, four guys standing around, etc.

The basic question is why do the Gophers run such a stagnant half court offense, particularly with only one guy who can get his own shot (Westbrook)? A more active offense seems very teachable. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

- This is a great posting and I am interested to see the responses as I notice some of the same issues but I am not an X and Os expert and don't know how to fix it, other then personnel changes that have been mentioned already
 

Ok, what were Izzo's defense adjustments that caused us to look so different in the 2nd half?
 



Friend Of Tubby said:
Deny the dribble penetration.
Click to expand...

The only way they were able to stop dribble penetration was to tighten their coverage in the middle which they did somewhat. Mich ST is a far superior shooting team than Minn which showed down the stretch. Tubby's half-court offense is pathetic. One of the worst I've seen around here in recent years. Usually we have been able to win games off of defense and the press. Hoff is a great shooter but is very slow and is still a defensive liabiltiy. He doesn't move well without the ball at all. I don't know if that's part of Tubby's boring 4 corner offense or the fact that he just isn't that good at getting open. Watch Joseph without the ball. He is pretty good at freeing himself up. Mich St is a very beatable team this year. They lost a lot of muscle in the middle from guys like Gray and Sutan. People say we shouldn't have beaten this team anyway but I totaly disagree. Vegas even had us as 2 pint favorites and they aren't stupid. This was a game Minny should have won.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Izzo is a superior defensive coach. He made halftime adjustments to stop what worked for Gophers in first half.

Maybe.
Click to expand...


That accounts for yesterday- sort of. Nevertheless the observations Jamiche and others have made are the result of watching the offense run all year.

If you look at it more closely- Izzo didn't stop our offense coming out of the half. We extended our lead beyond 10 and it was still 10 with 8 to 9 minutes left. Then we went into the stall. Too bad because yesterday they actually looked better than they have most of the year- up until those last minutes.
 

Izzo is a superior defensive coach.
Click to expand...

Using this logic - every coach we've faced has been a superior defensive coach. The halfcourt offense has been the same every game out this year if not last year also.

I love Tubby as a defensive mind - but his offensive "scheme" is not up to par. Can you have an offensive coordinator in college basketball?
 



Friend Of Tubby said:
Izzo is a superior defensive coach. He made halftime adjustments to stop what worked for Gophers in first half.

Maybe.
Click to expand...

You got it half right FOT. Izzo is superior coach, period.

There is not enough "motion" in Minnesota's motion offense, and the players don't seem to have enough "freedom" to create within the offensive set (not just talking about yesterday). Minnesota's shots were falling in the first half and early in the second. Michigan State started getting more out of their offense in the second half, especially Lucas. The zone defense worked for the Gopher's in the first half, primarily because MSU couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.

No one likes to talk about Tubby around here, but he is the reason they lost the game yesterday. The players gave a good effort and the bench coaching gave the game away. Tubby doesn't seem to be a very good strategic thinker down the stretch. He relies too heavily on talent to win basketball games. That's why Indiana beat the Gophers last week--Crean out coached Smith with less talented players.

The game was lost when MSU went on their 10 - 2 run in the second half. The Gophers never recovered from that.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Izzo is a superior defensive coach. He made halftime adjustments to stop what worked for Gophers in first half.

Maybe.
Click to expand...

And the rest of the games this year?

The rest of the coaches we faced superior in the D department?
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Izzo is a superior defensive coach. He made halftime adjustments to stop what worked for Gophers in first half.

Maybe.
Click to expand...

Don't we have a superior coach? I thought we did. I thought he was supposed to be the difference in games like this. In three years, I have seen very little difference from a good Monson team or an average Haskins team.

Isn't this guy supposed to be a step up? Especially three years in?
 

I have a feeling Tubby would let there be more creativity if more players could create. Carter, Westbrook, Nolen, and Joseph all seem to have a green light to take it to the basket whenever they want, but rarely are more than two of the above on the court at the same time. If you want to blame Tubby for the lack of players that can create, go for it, but until there are those type of players, we have what we have.
 



WilliamsArenaGuy said:
Don't we have a superior coach? I thought we did. I thought he was supposed to be the difference in games like this. In three years, I have seen very little difference from a good Monson team or an average Haskins team.
Isn't this guy supposed to be a step up? Especially three years in?
Click to expand...

Yes.


I think we were all expecting a bit more.
 

From the Barn said:
I have a feeling Tubby would let there be more creativity if more players could create. Carter, Westbrook, Nolen, and Joseph all seem to have a green light to take it to the basket whenever they want, but rarely are more than two of the above on the court at the same time. If you want to blame Tubby for the lack of players that can create, go for it, but until there are those type of players, we have what we have.
Click to expand...

It's not about taking it to the basket it's about ball and player movement so that somebody is in the proper position to take it to the basket or get an open look from the perimeter.
 

WilliamsArenaGuy said:
Don't we have a superior coach? I thought we did. I thought he was supposed to be the difference in games like this. In three years, I have seen very little difference from a good Monson team or an average Haskins team.

Isn't this guy supposed to be a step up? Especially three years in?
Click to expand...

The defense is clearly better than Monson's teams and the players generally work harder. The issue is that the offense often consists of one guy with the ball and four guys standing around waiting for him to do something.
 

GoldenGuts said:
i think there are a couple issues. first of all westbrook (and the last couple games joseph has been showing some promise) is the only guard out there who can really create his own shots and be fairly good when doing it. therefore we need sets to get players like the Hoff open shots or else we need to be aggressive in transition. i think we have been aggressive in transition and that has been helped by our defense. i think another issue is we dont really come off picks as tight as i would personally like and most of the guys setting the picks are either not very big or pose no real threat to roll to the hoop, catch the ball in traffic, and make an athletic move to score the ball (this makes it easier for the bigs on the other team to show on high picks and put more pressure on the guard and push the offense out further or cause it to look herky jerky and look out of sync). this makes it tough especially in the big 10 where the refs allow the players to be more physical on defense. our team as a whole struggles to throw good passes to the post and the post players struggle to hold their spot on the block. this allows the D to push everything further out and adds to the problems. not having a legit scoring threat out of the post adds to the issues as well. yesterday johnson had a matchup that wasn't all that good for him with morgan on him but i would like to see him get the ball more often around the elbows and allow him to face up and shoot when smaller players are on him or try to take his guy to the hoop if he is a slower power forward. i think the bigs need another year in the weight room and we need a legit scoring guard and a lot of these problems will fade. just my assessment, others may have different opinions.
Click to expand...

Great post, instructive.

Early in the season when Iverson had his success, the team seemed far more committed to the pick and roll. Next season with more bigs to run it and with RSIII and Colton a year older, I think it may figure more into the half-court set.
 

jamiche said:
The defense is clearly better than Monson's teams and the players generally work harder. The issue is that the offense often consists of one guy with the ball and four guys standing around waiting for him to do something.
Click to expand...


A consistent criticism of the Monson era, iirc.
 

pmgz said:
A consistent criticism of the Monson era, iirc.
Click to expand...

yes, but these observations were not consistently made during the Monson era:

Originally Posted by jamiche
The defense is clearly better than Monson's teams and the players generally work harder. The issue is that the offense often consists of one guy with the ball and four guys standing around waiting for him to do something.
Click to expand...
I've seen a very strong presence with RSIII and think both Williams and Cobbs will take large steps next year. All three should help distinguish that team from the teams of the Monson era.
 

Rick Mons said:
yes, but these observations were not consistently made during the Monson era:


I've seen a very strong presence with RSIII and think both Williams and Cobbs will take large steps next year. All three should help distinguish that team from the teams of the Monson era.
Click to expand...


RS and Cobbs are players I like and think will contribute - in the future.

Next year is year four; Tubby should be distinguishing his teams from Monson by then, dont you think? Suspicious that Tubby is relying on Monson players in year three. I would have expected a real influx of talent long before.
 

Rick Mons said:
yes, but these observations were not consistently made during the Monson era:

Rick- Please tell me you are kidding here. Monson took daily abuse on here for his last 4 to 5 years here. People were concerned about his offense, his defense, his recruiting, the amount of time he spent with his kids, whether or not he picked his nose or made certain expressions.

Tubby is a big upgrade. Right now it appears like his achilles heel is that he has one offense that depends a lot on the display of individual talents- some of which we don't have. In addition, a little more passion wouldn't hurt. It's okay that there's a little questioning of the coach as long as it isn't incessant or too personal. Face it Tubby is not having a banner Tubby year.

I think if you ask most any Gopher fan we are ecstatic that he's here. However, the name he brings and the pay he commands does raise expectations- appropriately.
Click to expand...
 

pmgz said:
RS and Cobbs are players I like and think will contribute - in the future.

Next year is year four; Tubby should be distinguishing his teams from Monson by then, dont you think? Suspicious that Tubby is relying on Monson players in year three. I would have expected a real influx of talent long before.
Click to expand...

What players was he supposed to rely on in year one?

This is still year 1.5 of Tubby's players.
 


From the Barn said:
What players was he supposed to rely on in year one?

This is still year 1.5 of Tubby's players.
Click to expand...

Please. He is Tubby Smith, not Dan Monson. We are in the middle of year 3. Current status = not very impressive, on many counts.

Should we wait a full 6 years to expect results?

Stop with the excuses.
 


My observations

I have been absolutely perplexed by our offense all season. My perspective comes from having played in college, coached at the HS level (AAU - don't have a teaching degree) and refereeing.

The prevailing offense philosophy in college basketball right now is variations of the Louisville Dribble Drive. This offense is predicated on a player with the ball being able to beat the on ball defender 1 on 1. The resulting help defense creates gaps for 3 pt shooters or for players crashing the rim. The dribble drive offense stays on the parameter, trying to get defensive switches, until a match up is found where an offensive player can beat the on ball defender. Then, it is attack the rim. If help does not come (leaving no gaps) the player attacking the rim must be able to finish. If, you never get the match up you can exploit, the offense stagnates and leads to long jumpers.

[A variation used by a very few teams is to get the dribble drive spacing by feeding a dominant offensive post player after a couple of ball rotations.]

Unfortunately, have only have 3 players who can do this to some degree. One doesn't play much (Bostick), one has a significant height disparity that makes finishing at the rim problematic (Westbrooke) and one is coming into his own (Joseph).

If you are not a threat to shoot from distance, the defender will lag back making it very difficult to beat him off the dribble. This is Nolan's problem. If you don't have the quickness, the defender will play you so tight that you can't get around them. This is Hoff's problem. And neither Sampson nor Iverson have the post game to get the spacing that way. (In fairness, in all off college basketball, there are only a few who do)

In anticipation of other comments, based on what I saw in HS and AAU ball, neither White nor Trevor are create your own space / shot players. Even with them, we would have the same issue in the half court - though I will say that our transition would be so fantastic with Trevor and White, that the number of half court possessions would be significantly decreased.

From my perspective, we need to be a more "Princeton" like offense. As much as it pains me to say it, Bo Ryan's offense would be far better fit for our personnel. We need more off the ball screens to get us the mismatches we need to exploit. We need more back cut to the basket to create space. We need to use players, especially tough players like Iverson, to set those crunching away from the ball screens. Tubby needs to do for Hoff what Coach K did for JJ Redick - run him off several back side screens to get him open.

Tubby is a great coach. Knows defense, knows the game inside and out, motivates the kids, great role model. But I am just shocked that he (or his staff) have not been able to come up with some offense variations to offset the lack of players able to create for themselves. It is our Achilles heel this year.
 

UST82Gopher said:
I have been absolutely perplexed by our offense all season. My perspective comes from having played in college, coached at the HS level (AAU - don't have a teaching degree) and refereeing.

The prevailing offense philosophy in college basketball right now is variations of the Louisville Dribble Drive. This offense is predicated on a player with the ball being able to beat the on ball defender 1 on 1. The resulting help defense creates gaps for 3 pt shooters or for players crashing the rim. The dribble drive offense stays on the parameter, trying to get defensive switches, until a match up is found where an offensive player can beat the on ball defender. Then, it is attack the rim. If help does not come (leaving no gaps) the player attacking the rim must be able to finish. If, you never get the match up you can exploit, the offense stagnates and leads to long jumpers.
Click to expand...


It is not referred to as the Louisville Dribble Drive - ti's the Memphis dribble drive or Vance Walberg dribble drive motion.

And this is hardly revolutionary stuff, even though it's got these new monikers.

"Space the floor and let your athletes beat their athletes with penetration."

That's it.
 

One way to open things up in the half-court game is to get it to your big man. The big then must decide whether to create a shot or pass it out to an (hopefully) open shooter. Our problem is that Ralph is too weak to get solid position down low, making it very hard to get close shot attempts. Another problem is that Ralph often gets doubled and tends to bring the ball down low. This leads to turnovers or awkward passes out. Not to only blame Ralph as he has been a bright point at times. Only being able to succeed with this strategy once in a while means we get a lot of passing it around without anything happening

Another way to run the offense is to let your guards penetrate. Problem is that Nolen couldn't hit a lay-up to save his life. Westbrook is too busy dribbling between his legs that when he does get by the defender he is often out of control. Joseph has shown some nice pull-up jump shots, but he is still young and doesn't have "it" yet. Hoff is not a penetrator.

Tubby has gotten a free pass for a long time now, but it is obvious fans are getting fed up with the lack of success with the half-court offense. Great coaches adapt and make it happen. I haven't seen this yet.
 

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