Estimated Season With Royce White - Based on his Sabermetric Projection

I know all about sabermetrics for baseball, but I've never seen nor heard of anything like what the original poster is talking about for basketball, and I'd love to read up on what it is all about.
 

I think it was GopherLady who earlier this year suggested that if White wouldn't have got himself (and the Gophers) into this mess that, just maybe, the Gophers would not have suspended Mbakwe. But the Gopher brass thought that with two guys under suspicion both needed to be suspended.

End result ... if White had gone somewhere else, Mbakwe is likely active and Gophers are several games better off for it. Nice going Royce!

This is incorrect. Mbakwe's suspension was automatic as per the school's student-athlete code of conduct. Royce's troubles have nothing to do with Trevor not being on the court.

As for Sabermetrics, they are, by definition, based on objective statistical evidence. Since there are no stats for Royce White, you have no objective statistical evidence. Would the Gophers be a better team with Royce White playing? Of course. But to suggest there is objective statistical evidence supporting that opinion is simply false.

John Wall and Royce White were both great 2009 kids.. but White is a guy that you say, 'he's potentially an impact guy right away... and likely at least a solid contributor... top 25 in his class..'. However, John Wall was on a whole different level than Royce and everyone else in the class - before he set foot on a college court, he projected as the 2010 #1 NBA Draft pick. No comparison.
 

Since we're on the topic of baseball, I'm going to expand my thoughts on this. Being both a huge baseball fan and a nerd, I've loved following the growth of sabermetrics in baseball over the last few years. I'd love to see other sports start getting in to more in-depth sabermetrics - but none of them will be as easy to analyze as baseball.

While baseball is a team sport, it is still much easier to measure individual performance than it is in other sports. One person is at bat at a time. One pitcher is pitching at a time. Usually, only one defender has the potential to field the ball at a time. Yes, the team can affect the performance of an individual in some small ways - who bats in front of and behind a certain player, the quality of the whole lineup (runs, rbi, etc.), the playcalling skill of the catcher can affect the pitcher, the defense behind the pitcher (which is starting to be easily accounted for), and other small things. However, given the relative simplicity of the sport, sabermatrics in baseball is still immensely complicated. It is often said that it takes at least 1/2 to 2/3 of a season to have enough data for a certain player to be able to accurately model how that player will perform for the rest of the season. It can take many, many years to have enough data for a certain player to be able to accurately model how well that player will perform over his career.

So now we come to baseball, which is far less individualistic than baseball. Every single play, offense and defense, is changed in some way by every player. There are also a million things that happen in a basketball game that cannot be tracked in the scoresheet. In baseball, every single pitch (velocity, trajectory, pitch type, break, EVERYTHING), every single swing, and every single fielded ball is tracked and analyzed. There is also a very important "chemistry" or "teamwork" element in basketball that is nearly nonexistent in baseball.

Hopefully you can see why I put incredibly little stock in the accuracy of these projections. Is Royce White good? Absolutely. Would he have made the Gophers better? Can't imagine he wouldn't. But to try to model the affect a player that has never played at this level could have on each game is, I think, far beyond our sabermetric abilities at this point. That said, I do think this is a great and interesting idea. I'd love to see the math (and explanation) that went into these numbers.
 

See This Post and the link
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Section201
You continue to astound me with your "musings".

Sentence #1 : I tend to agree with.

Sentence #2 : I never heard such a thing. Can you provide a link please?

Sentence #3 : "we would probably be close to unbeaten and be ranked in the top 5."

Respectfully I have to say sentence #3 is one of the most ridiculous opinions I have ever seen on this board. But that is just IMHO.

#2.. i think the 2009 ESPN's class breakdown did mention Wall would be the biggest impact PG and White would be an immediate PF impact player in the b10.. (that is now 'insider only' info on espn.com and i don't have an account.) Doesn't exactly compare the two per se, but it does say they will both provide immediate impact.
 

THe original work was done by the ABERmetrics group:

Justin Kubatko, The Ohio State University and basketball-reference.com
Dean Oliver, Basketball on Paper and Denver Nuggets
Kevin Pelton, Seattle Sonics & Storm
Dan T. Rosenbaum, University of North Carolina at Greensboro and Cleveland Cavaliers

See More Info at this link on Quantitative Analysis in Sports
http://www.bepress.com/jqas/vol3/iss3/1/
 


Would love to see the full article that you refer to because according to ESPN's rankings, White was the 10th ranked PF in the country, with Favors obviously at #1. John Wall was obviously the #1 PG.

To take Wall's performance and use it as a guide for what White would have done is patently ridiculous. Wall is the consensus #1 draft pick. Do you really think that White would have been #2? No way.


on Rivals, white is #19 overall... a 5*... 'immediate impact'.

yes, he's appx the 10th forward.. but many of those guys are really centers ( Cousins, Sidney, Yarou ) or small forwards ( Henson, Hamilton ).. in addition, I have no idea where L. Williams (#17)went.
Eliminating these guys, you have Dante Taylor from Pitt and Wally Judge from Kansas State followed by White..

yes, i would say our boy White is an 'immediate impact' guy at the PF.
 


You crack me up!!! That was a good one. Nor will it project his GPA in 2 years....

I have heard royce has the highest GPA on the team at this point (maybe not saying much with him majoring in music) but its just a thought that maybe he has realized he needs the gophers as much as we need him.....
 






Since we're on the topic of baseball, I'm going to expand my thoughts on this. Being both a huge baseball fan and a nerd, I've loved following the growth of sabermetrics in baseball over the last few years. I'd love to see other sports start getting in to more in-depth sabermetrics - but none of them will be as easy to analyze as baseball.

While baseball is a team sport, it is still much easier to measure individual performance than it is in other sports. One person is at bat at a time. One pitcher is pitching at a time. Usually, only one defender has the potential to field the ball at a time. Yes, the team can affect the performance of an individual in some small ways - who bats in front of and behind a certain player, the quality of the whole lineup (runs, rbi, etc.), the playcalling skill of the catcher can affect the pitcher, the defense behind the pitcher (which is starting to be easily accounted for), and other small things. However, given the relative simplicity of the sport, sabermatrics in baseball is still immensely complicated. It is often said that it takes at least 1/2 to 2/3 of a season to have enough data for a certain player to be able to accurately model how that player will perform for the rest of the season. It can take many, many years to have enough data for a certain player to be able to accurately model how well that player will perform over his career.

So now we come to baseball, which is far less individualistic than baseball. Every single play, offense and defense, is changed in some way by every player. There are also a million things that happen in a basketball game that cannot be tracked in the scoresheet. In baseball, every single pitch (velocity, trajectory, pitch type, break, EVERYTHING), every single swing, and every single fielded ball is tracked and analyzed. There is also a very important "chemistry" or "teamwork" element in basketball that is nearly nonexistent in baseball.

Hopefully you can see why I put incredibly little stock in the accuracy of these projections. Is Royce White good? Absolutely. Would he have made the Gophers better? Can't imagine he wouldn't. But to try to model the affect a player that has never played at this level could have on each game is, I think, far beyond our sabermetric abilities at this point. That said, I do think this is a great and interesting idea. I'd love to see the math (and explanation) that went into these numbers.

Finally some people on here who are taking my predictions seriously and see the success of Sabermetrics. Although this technology is in early development is does have huge potential to change the way we view NCAA hoops, especially in recruitment. I'm looking for a High School statistical comparison that will allow one to project high school performance against the predictive values of their college outcomes. That would make the impact of adding White or Trevor M. more predictable then the sabermetrics I outlined above. Its a start.
 




thank you. that link worked. unfortunately it is subscription ( $$$ ) only.

I will just have to believe you.

Sorry, Ya I forgot it was a paid site. I could give you my password and username but you might get my bank information and charge up a bunch of weird stuff on those wacky web sites you visit. No Offense!
 

I just paid for the link...........................
amumazing stuff, still to new for basketball however...
 

layup

Sorry, Ya I forgot it was a paid site. I could give you my password and username but you might get my bank information and charge up a bunch of weird stuff on those wacky web sites you visit. No Offense!

sometimes nothing can weirder than the GH.

:)
 



I just paid for the link...........................
amumazing stuff, still to new for basketball however...

You are probably the same guy, who while riding in your horse drawn carriage, said the Automobile was too new for the streets of Chicago.

Its the future!!
 

layup

I'm sorry, I don't understand. I apparently don't speak Section 201. What is GH?

What is Section 201 in reference to?

Seriously?

You are cracking me up.

GH is "Gopher Hole".

Section 201 is where I sit at Willum Arena. Oops, "Willum Arena" is the Clem pronunciation. Oops, "Clem" is Clem Haskins.

:confused:
 

Example 17 why Missed-layup definitely isn't a Gopher fan.

I am a Gophger Fan, believe me or not, that is your choice. I just try to see things realistically. I will admit I have only been to the Barn for 2 games in my life. Is 201 is the alcoholic section or something?
 


Seriously?

You are cracking me up.

GH is "Gopher Hole".

Section 201 is where I sit at Willum Arena. Oops, "Willum Arena" is the Clem pronunciation. Oops, "Clem" is Clem Haskins.

:confused:

Fair enough. I never picked up on the lingo. I'm slow.
 



Gophers Plus/Minus Statistics for current players:

ust in time for the new year, net plus-minus for the current NCAA Division I college basketball season is available! By net plus-minus, I mean that the team’s performance with that player on the floor is compared to the team’s performance overall. It is measured on a per possession basis. For example, if a player has an overall plus-minus of +5, it means that his team is expected to outscore the opponent by five points over an average-paced 40 minute game. For overall and offensive plus-minus, a more positive number is better, while for defensive plus-minus a more negative plus-minus is better.

However, you must approach these numbers with caution. First of all, it is very early in the season. Most teams have only played 10 or 12 games, so plus-minus with such a small sample is very unreliable. As the season progresses the numbers should become more accurate. Secondly, as I’ve mentioned before, the official play-by-play data is filled with errors, so for some players the numbers may be slightly off. Also, some players and teams aren’t available, so if there’s a team you’d like to see that’s not already there, let me know. Finally, we must remember that all plus-minus stats have their own strengths and weaknesses. This is not adjusted plus-minus, so a player’s teammates are not taken into account. Therefore, if a poor player is often paired with an excellent player, the poor player may look better than he actually is.

With all of that being said, below is a spreadsheet containing all of the data. To sort by team, click on the filter at the top and choose which team you’d like to see. Also, if you click the arrow at the top left, you can download the file as an Excel spreadsheet. If you notice any errors, please let me know

http://basketball-statistics.com/blog1/2010/01/01/ncaa-plus-minus-01-01-10/
 

As a statistical nerd, I would love to look at this. Where can I find the methodologies, formulas, inputs, anything?

Example: See further postings for links to the Experts

Team’s performance with that player on the floor compared to the team’s performance overall would be
(3* 100/50) - (100/50+100/100)=
3 pts per 150 total team possessions
or =+2 per 100 team possessions at the 1:2 ratio of on vs off playing time. Change that ratio and you change the stated impact. Ok, as long you know what you mean.

On/off is simpler so I'd label & call it that and use that description.

Any interest in presenting a list of values for just those on mock drafts? I didn't recognize any name in the top 250. Luke Sikma was the first name I recognized at #264 on overall +/-. Perhaps the quality of subs is more often real bad at small schools? I scanned the top 1000 and found it hard to find guys I recognized.

Raw +/- against just the top 65 (or some such cut) would be even valuable to me.

A crude form of adjusted +/- might use a power ranking to adjust the data on a team and boxscore basis. If anyone need true, play by play based Adjusted +/- for the NCAA I'd suggest it be against just the top 65 and probably 2 year to get more data and including the Tournament.
 

Mich State: Another game where the Sabermetric prediction of adding Royce White would have clearly been a deciding factor in us beating Mich State.

We likely would have a record between between (20-1 and 18-3) and ranked in the top 5 and a contender to win the big 10.
 




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