STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

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jovs said:
They could possibly go D1 for hockey and basketball, where do they play, how long before they break even.
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Anderson Athletic Center seats 2000. While small, many schools in lesser leagues only have 1000+ seats. Sacramento St plays in a gym that doesn’t even seat 1000. It would be usable for the Summit Conference, but if it wanted to move up to the Horizon or MVC, they would have a have another place to play.

St Thomas Ice Arena in Mendota Heights only has seating on one side. For DI, that arena would need to be expanded to the other which think is possible.

For football, Allianz Field would be used for big games.

The Tommies have too many sports for DI. They only need 14 and have 22. Cutting eight non revenue ones like M/W swimming, baseball and M/W tennis that they will never be a power in would be wise.

But they should add M/W lacrosse and become the first DI school to offer it in Minnesota.

For private schools and even public, DI sports are a major cause of charitable contributions. In addition, St Thomas would become known throughout the nation, not just MSP, if it wins. DIII means a school must be exceptional for recognition. DI provides another vehicle for recognition that can’t be reproduced but by a multimillion advertising campaign. The NEC is almost all small Catholic schools in the North East that use tiny gyms. Merrimack just moved up to entirely DI (had DI hockey before) and they only have 1200 seats. The bar for DI is number of sports (14), not gym size or endowment size.
 
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After all is said, done and speculated...if the Tommies really think the D3 non scholly model is their cup of tea, they would probably remain D3 as an independent like a mini Notre Dame. Keep the Tommie/Johnnie rivalry in football and schedule any regional teams that are willing to play them. It would probably mean more games vs. the WIAC and others out of state, so a little more travel. Almost every UST team is good enough to make the NCAA playoffs as an at-large bid so the conference auto bid shouldn't be that big of a deal. The 97-0 beatdowns in football would end unless some lower level schools simply want to schedule a challenge.
 
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Panthadad2 said:
After all is said, done and speculated...if the Tommies really think the D3 non scholly model is their cup of tea, they would probably remain D3 as an independent like a mini Notre Dame. Keep the Tommie/Johnnie rivalry in football and schedule any regional teams that are willing to play them. It would probably mean more games vs. the WIAC and others out of state, so a little more travel. Almost every UST team is good enough to make the NCAA playoffs as an at-large bid so the conference auto bid shouldn't be that big of a deal. The 97-0 beatdowns in football would end unless some lower level schools simply want to schedule a challenge.
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Certainly could, but I don't think that's realistically on the table.

I think their #1 goal is to see if they can work out some back-room deal to stay in the MIAC. The sheer force of will to maintain the status quo, is something that's hard to grasp sometimes.
Then #2 I think would be to take the obvious, open spot in the Northern Sun, and see how that plays out.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Certainly could, but I don't think that's realistically on the table.

I think their #1 goal is to see if they can work out some back-room deal to stay in the MIAC. The sheer force of will to maintain the status quo, is something that's hard to grasp sometimes.
Then #2 I think would be to take the obvious, open spot in the Northern Sun, and see how that plays out.
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Unless there has been a change in the thinking in the last 5 years, the admin has no desire to go d2 or d1
 

Some guy said:
Unless there has been a change in the thinking in the last 5 years, the admin has no desire to go d2 or d1
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You haven’t the slightest clue what they desire, then or now.

Your post is just your wishful thinking. The weird thing though is ... why? Why are you so emotionally invested in pinning down ST to DIII?? Or is it just a troll job?
 


Hats off to Chip Scoggins at StarTribune. His article in the Sunday paper was excellent. He was spot on. St Olaf is really amazing at Choir!!

Congrats Chip


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Gophers_4life said:
You haven’t the slightest clue what they desire, then or now.

Your post is just your wishful thinking. The weird thing though is ... why? Why are you so emotionally invested in pinning down ST to DIII?? Or is it just a troll job?
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He can answer for himself, but my own thought is, I absolutely do not want a second D1 school in the state of Minnesota, ever. (I'm not talking about hockey, which is a niche college sport in most of the country). My concern with St. Thomas ever going D2 is that would open up the path to D1.
 

Gophers_4life said:
You haven’t the slightest clue what they desire, then or now.

Your post is just your wishful thinking. The weird thing though is ... why? Why are you so emotionally invested in pinning down ST to DIII?? Or is it just a troll job?
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Lol
 

WanderingGopher said:
He can answer for himself, but my own thought is, I absolutely do not want a second D1 school in the state of Minnesota, ever. (I'm not talking about hockey, which is a niche college sport in most of the country). My concern with St. Thomas ever going D2 is that would open up the path to D1.
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Any particular reason you would not want a second D1 team?
 



I agree .... that's pathetic Wisconsin Badgers style thinking. Although granted, they only do that for football. Milwaukee and Green Bay are DI, but no football. They force all other UW schools that have football down into DIII. They would never, ever allow Whitewater or Eau Claire to go to FCS.


Come to think of it ... there are actually very few private schools that have DI varsity scholarship football, when you think of north of the Mason-Dixon line and north central or great lakes. Obviously Northwestern and Notre Dame. But other than that ... struggling to think of another one until you get pretty far out east. Drake, Valpo, Butler, and Dayton have non-scholarship varsity football, as a special sub-caste of FCS.
 

per Shooter:

There was buzz last week that the University of St. Thomas might not contest the Division III Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference’s attempt by some members to expel it, and instead in two years join the Division II Northern Sun conference. There also was talk of the Tommies considering a move to Division I.

https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/...cruz-says-twins-remind-him-of-2010-al-champs/

Go Gophers!!
 

Chip: MIAC's mysterious push to oust St. Thomas baffling, high-handed

Something seems totally unfair within the MIAC, an inequity that demands drastic measures, perhaps expulsion of one institution.

St. Olaf College is just too dang good at choir.

Just ask them.

“St. Olaf College is recognized worldwide for the exceptional breadth and depth of its music program,” the school’s website boasts.

Why, if the MIAC held a singing competition — their version of “American Idol” — St. Olaf would embarrass some rivals so badly that, if they kept score, the outcome would be something like 97-0.

“The St. Olaf Choir continues to attract capacity audiences at top venues around the country including Carnegie Hall, Philadelphia’s Verizon Hall, the Kennedy Center, Cleveland’s Severance Hall and the Orchestra Halls of both Chicago and Minneapolis,” the school notes.

This is outrageous! Who can compete with that kind of talent? The other MIAC schools should band together and boot those baritone bullies right out of the conference.

How dare St. Olaf make a sizable investment in something that enhances the school’s overall image and pursuit of excellence.

Sound silly? Of course it does.

http://www.startribune.com/miac-s-mysterious-push-to-oust-st-thomas-baffling-high-handed/509486642/

Go Gophers!!
 

Dang. Would love to see the complete column. I've already used my 3 free visits to Strib online for the month.

Love the start of it, Scoggins taking some shots at high-brow St. Olaf!!!
 



SelectionSunday said:
Dang. Would love to see the complete column. I've already used my 3 free visits to Strib online for the month.

Love the start of it, Scoggins taking some shots at high-brow St. Olaf!!!
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My guess is the Ole Administrators are appreciative of Chip's accolades for the Choir program, and don't care one iota about his digs at the movement to remove St Thomas.
 


HOOP DREAMS said:
Odd that Olaf is getting singled out when they apparently have 8 other schools who agree.
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It's pretty well established the St. Olaf president is the main guy behind this. He didn't like getting beat 97-0 in football, and now we're here.
 

SelectionSunday said:
It's pretty well established the St. Olaf president is the main guy behind this. He didn't like getting beat 97-0 in football, and now we're here.
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I have heard the "main guy" part is not necessarily true (though they are on board with the effort), but the fact that nobody is talking makes it impossible to refute.
 

SelectionSunday said:
It's pretty well established the St. Olaf president is the main guy behind this. He didn't like getting beat 97-0 in football, and now we're here.
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If he gets 8 other schools to agree, he might be onto-something.

It kinda seems like a bi*** move to me, but I would also love to follow ST as a D1 program.
 

BleedGopher said:
Chip: MIAC's mysterious push to oust St. Thomas baffling, high-handed

Something seems totally unfair within the MIAC, an inequity that demands drastic measures, perhaps expulsion of one institution.

St. Olaf College is just too dang good at choir.

Just ask them.

“St. Olaf College is recognized worldwide for the exceptional breadth and depth of its music program,” the school’s website boasts.

Why, if the MIAC held a singing competition — their version of “American Idol” — St. Olaf would embarrass some rivals so badly that, if they kept score, the outcome would be something like 97-0.

“The St. Olaf Choir continues to attract capacity audiences at top venues around the country including Carnegie Hall, Philadelphia’s Verizon Hall, the Kennedy Center, Cleveland’s Severance Hall and the Orchestra Halls of both Chicago and Minneapolis,” the school notes.

This is outrageous! Who can compete with that kind of talent? The other MIAC schools should band together and boot those baritone bullies right out of the conference.

How dare St. Olaf make a sizable investment in something that enhances the school’s overall image and pursuit of excellence.

Sound silly? Of course it does.

http://www.startribune.com/miac-s-mysterious-push-to-oust-st-thomas-baffling-high-handed/509486642/

Go Gophers!!
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A lot of the Strib's coverage has been way off base and this adds to it. They keep pushing the narrative that it is about blowouts in football games when that is a small piece of it, and really more of a symptom. As far as this specific article -- the music program at St. Olaf offers degrees in music. It's an academic program. Is St. Thomas offering degrees in football or basketball? If UST threw a bunch of money into a music degree program I can guarantee no MIAC school would want to kick them out for doing that. It sounds like a good argument until you realize that it's not a valid comparison.

It really boils down to three things:
1 -- UST has much larger undergraduate enrollment than all other MIAC schools and student population matters a ton when it comes to fair competition in D3 athletics.
2 -- UST spends more money on athletics than all the other MIAC schools.
3 -- The amount of financial aid provided to student-athletes at UST is much greater than at other MIAC institutions.

None of the schools are demanding that UST go D1 or D2. That is a decision for the school to make. They are simply saying that UST doesn't fit with the other schools anymore in terms of institutional mission and the way they approach athletics. (A lot can change in 100 years.)
 

Ope3 said:
I have heard the "main guy" part is not necessarily true (though they are on board with the effort), but the fact that nobody is talking makes it impossible to refute.
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Nobody talks about any of this stuff until it's done or they think a leak will help their position. For those mocking the position of the UST administration having no interest in D-1, I can speak from direct knowledge that in the recent past they had no desire to get involved in D-1 sports. None. That certainly could have changed with high dollar donors selling sports as a mechanism to becoming a "great" university, but I highly doubt there is much if any will within the broader university community to go D-1.
 

HOOP DREAMS said:
If he gets 8 other schools to agree, he might be onto-something.

It kinda seems like a bi*** move to me, but I would also love to follow ST as a D1 program.
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As a Tommie grad, I'm in the same boat. Would eventually like to see them in D1.

Also, if they're booted, would love it if somehow the MIAC got fractured and St. Olaf, Carleton, etc., end up in their old conference, the Midwest Conference, which would require a lot more travel, and is nowhere near as strong of a conference as the (current) MIAC. Not likely to happen, but it would be funny.
 



A more noble gesture by St. Olaf administration would be to disband their own football program (and any other program they deem inferior).
 

bizzle22 said:
A lot of the Strib's coverage has been way off base and this adds to it. They keep pushing the narrative that it is about blowouts in football games when that is a small piece of it, and really more of a symptom. As far as this specific article -- the music program at St. Olaf offers degrees in music. It's an academic program. Is St. Thomas offering degrees in football or basketball? If UST threw a bunch of money into a music degree program I can guarantee no MIAC school would want to kick them out for doing that. It sounds like a good argument until you realize that it's not a valid comparison.

It really boils down to three things:
1 -- UST has much larger undergraduate enrollment than all other MIAC schools and student population matters a ton when it comes to fair competition in D3 athletics.
2 -- UST spends more money on athletics than all the other MIAC schools.
3 -- The amount of financial aid provided to student-athletes at UST is much greater than at other MIAC institutions.

None of the schools are demanding that UST go D1 or D2. That is a decision for the school to make. They are simply saying that UST doesn't fit with the other schools anymore in terms of institutional mission and the way they approach athletics. (A lot can change in 100 years.)
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Very well written post, and mostly correct.

Only place where I disagree is in practicality of staying in DIII, should they be removed from the MIAC.

It would be unlikely, barring an invite from the Wisconsin conference. Even then, would St Thomas want to play a bunch of DIII Univ of Wisconsin public schools?? Or local DII schools in the state? As a wild guess, I would think the latter is a no-brainer. But we will see.
 

builtbadgers said:
Any particular reason you would not want a second D1 team?
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I don’t see how it would help the Gophers. It could possibly hurt, maybe even likely. More dilution/fracturing of in state fan base. More competition for private/corporate donation money. More dilution of local media coverage. I could go on. I like the unique nature of the U of M being the only D1 school in the state. It is Minnesota’s school, no questions asked.

Anecdotally, I know quite a few St Thomas grads who are Gopher fans. There’s no reason not to be, presently. That would probably change over time, as to the future generations of students, if they went D1.

Hockey is a possible example. When I was a kid, virtually everybody in the state was an avid gopher fan except maybe a tiny pocket in Duluth. It was supposed to be a “good thing” when bemidji, Mankato, and St Cloud went to D1, but it hasn’t helped the Gophers, and my observation is that it’s even created pockets of anti-U fans in St Cloud, with their hockey fandom/jealousies bleeding into other sports. I have seen no indication that adding these D1 programs has been good for the U of M.
 

WanderingGopher said:
I don’t see how it would help the Gophers. It could possibly hurt, maybe even likely. More dilution/fracturing of in state fan base. More competition for private/corporate donation money. More dilution of local media coverage. I could go on. I like the unique nature of the U of M being the only D1 school in the state. It is Minnesota’s school, no questions asked.

Anecdotally, I know quite a few St Thomas grads who are Gopher fans. There’s no reason not to be, presently. That would probably change over time, as to the future generations of students, if they went D1.

Hockey is a possible example. When I was a kid, virtually everybody in the state was an avid gopher fan except maybe a tiny pocket in Duluth. It was supposed to be a “good thing” when bemidji, Mankato, and St Cloud went to D1, but it hasn’t helped the Gophers, and my observation is that it’s even created pockets of anti-U fans in St Cloud, with their hockey fandom/jealousies bleeding into other sports. I have seen no indication that adding these D1 programs has been good for the U of M.
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It's been a nice advantage to be the only D1 program in Minnesota, but truthfully how much has it paid off for the Gophers? Every other Big 10 team not only has a D1 program within their borders, they have a P5 team.

I see no reason for Gopher fans to be 'fraidy cats of a potential St Thomas move to D1. None.
 

St Thomas in DI is a Summit League school.

You’re worried about that negatively affecting the Gophers?? If it were a Marquette type of deal, then maybe. But ST won’t be in the Big East for decades, if ever. They’ll probably never be able to build p that level of a fan base either. They’d be much more like UW-Milwaukee.
 

Ope3 said:
It's been a nice advantage to be the only D1 program in Minnesota, but truthfully how much has it paid off for the Gophers? Every other Big 10 team not only has a D1 program within their borders, they have a P5 team.

I see no reason for Gopher fans to be 'fraidy cats of a potential St Thomas move to D1. None.
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Maryland doesn't have another P5 team.
 

Gophers_4life said:
St Thomas in DI is a Summit League school.

You’re worried about that negatively affecting the Gophers?? If it were a Marquette type of deal, then maybe. But ST won’t be in the Big East for decades, if ever. They’ll probably never be able to build p that level of a fan base either. They’d be much more like UW-Milwaukee.
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Even if they do get into the Big East that would just mean we add a major rival that can get fans and recruits excited about a non-conference game.

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