DEs for next year

[sonnygarcia]

I know some of you have expressed concern over our DE situation next year (with WVD leaving). Have any of you followed the progress of Raymond Henderson??? He was in the US Army AA game in 2005 and transferred to MN after a redshirt season at Tennessee. Was the outlook on him just way too high coming out of HS, or does he really have potential?? I remember reading in the STrib this fall he was scout team player of the week once. What has been the reason this kid has never flourished?

[grunkiejr]

I know some of you have expressed concern over our DE situation next year (with WVD leaving). Have any of you followed the progress of Raymond Henderson??? He was in the US Army AA game in 2005 and transferred to MN after a redshirt season at Tennessee. Was the outlook on him just way too high coming out of HS, or does he really have potential?? I remember reading in the STrib this fall he was scout team player of the week once. What has been the reason this kid has never flourished?

He had an illness that kept him from doing much prior to this year. He was listed at 3rd string on the depth chart (Rivals) and I haven't heard much discussion about him. It would be nice to see him realize the potential that was expected out of him in HS but it will take a great off season to get there.

Personally, I'm hoping or expecting that Anthony Jacobs will step up and take over that role. He was a 4 star recruit and the #1 player out of Minnesota in 2007. He played RB in HS and now he is 6'2" 300 lbs and still moves well.

[lawrence21]

There have been several stories in the newspaper and several posts here about his illness which set him back physically. We have McKinley and Kirksey and I would take Onwuachi over Vandesteeg any day. WVS was highly overrated after a freshman year in which he benefited from Anthony Montgomery, Daryl Reid and Mark Losli.

[grunkiejr]

There have been several stories in the newspaper and several posts here about his illness which set him back physically. We have McKinley and Kirksey and I would take Onwuachi over Vandesteeg any day. WVS was highly overrated after a freshman year in which he benefited from Anthony Montgomery, Daryl Reid and Mark Losli.

Right, and the 9.5 sacks and position as 1st Team All Big Ten he achieved this year benefitted from those same players. The sack and forced fumble that Simoni Lawrence returned for a TD against Illinois was a result of lingering pressure from Montgomery. The hit that Van De Steeg put on Juice Williams that caused Collado's interception in the 4th quarter was because the Tackle and Juice had visions of Reid and Losli dancing in his head.

Where do you come up with this stuff? What basis do you have?

[GopherinPhilly]

There have been several stories in the newspaper and several posts here about his illness which set him back physically. We have McKinley and Kirksey and I would take Onwuachi over Vandesteeg any day. WVS was highly overrated after a freshman year in which he benefited from Anthony Montgomery, Daryl Reid and Mark Losli.

Did you see any of the games this year? WVS was very good and at times, absolutely dominated his guy....

[mkAz]

WVS had a very good year, what's with the hating on him? Anybody know how Terrell Combs or D.L. Wilhite progressed this year?

[btowngopher]

and what exactly has Onwuachi ever done?

[grunkiejr]

WVS had a very good year, what's with the hating on him? Anybody know how Terrell Combs or D.L. Wilhite progressed this year?

Combs is now practicing at TE.

[GopherBeef]

What are the prospects for Jacobs? At that size, can he still play DE or will he move inside to DT?

I have the same thoughts as Grunkie, that with his size and potential, Jacobs could really be a star. He did not do a lot this year, however. Having a 300 lb DE that can still move could be a great asset.

[lawrence21]

So WVS had a nice bookend to his career, a good freshman year and a good senior year. Where exactly was he both sophomore and junior years? Where exactly will he be drafted in the NFL? How long will his NFL career be? When WVS is a highlighted player on your defense you know your defense is horrible (the D was much improved this year). This is why Brewster was brought in, to raise the talent level. As far as Onwuachi goes, he is a raw athlete. Onwuachi can bench 395 pounds, does a front squat of 510 and he has a 37-inch vertical jump and has speed.

[Maximus]

So WVS had a nice bookend to his career, a good freshman year and a good senior year. Where exactly was he both sophomore and junior years?

Umm....he was second team all-conference as a sophomore....repeat, a sophomore. Tied for the league lead in sacks as a sophomore....repeat, a sophomore.

[Golden Elephant]

Glad to see other posters (nice Grunkie) have ripped lawrence21's idiotic comment about WVDS.

IMHO, WVDS is the 1 senior we will truly miss next year. Don't get me wrong, we'll have to replace some LBs and Simmons at TE, and Monroe and Kucek. But as much as those other seniors were solid contributors, none of them was a real game-changer the way WVDS was for us this season. Without WVDS, we easily lose at Ill and probably several of the other wins, too.

I like DO, but he hasn't been dominating. Jacobs did play a bit at the end of the year and looked decent at times. I do really like our DTs, with Brown & Small looking very solid this year and Kirksey on the rise, but I just don't know if we're going to have that difference-making pass-rushing DE next year. Hopefully someone can step up or we can recruit someone.

[goldfan24]

Willie played with a broken hand in 2007.
Anthony Jacobs, Brandon Kirksey, Cedrick McKinley, Derrick Onwuachi should all see a lot of time at DE in 2008. Henderson and Wilhite will provide some nice depth and talent.

[DCGopher]

WVS was a great player for us. You can't ignore that he was first-team big ten team.

However, I don't think we will have that huge of a drop off from him graduating as we are anticipating. We have a ton of depth and lots of raw talent at DE. We have Henderson, Onawachi, Jacobs, Garin, Combs, Kirksey, Wihlite, McKinely. A lot of these guys saw the field already this year and were big recruits with some talent out of high school.

With that many people competiting at a high level, whoever steps up will need to be a solid contributor. Worse case scenario is that no one really stands out and we have a deep rotation at that position where we can wear down the opponents o-linemen and make it harder for them to prepare in film study for facing multiple DE's.

I am more concerned about our DT depth in the future. After next year we lose Small, Brown, and Moen. Leaving us with Edwards, Strouth (tough competitor from what I have heard but not exactly a Big Ten run-stopper at 250 lbs right now), and it looks like Searcy coming in. That leaves us an injury away from big trouble and we need to get some DT's now to develop them up to playing weight, speed, awareness, etc for a few years from now.

[ruppertflywheel]

I talked with Willie V at the Cragun's Golf Outing in Brainerd last July and he indicated Henderson had gained most of his weight back, but had lost alot of flexibility due to the illness. He indicated it's tough enough to lose 40 lbs and then add the loss of the other two components you need for a DE ( strength/flex) and it makes for a tough road back

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Willie played with a broken hand in 2007.
Anthony Jacobs, Brandon Kirksey, Cedrick McKinley, Derrick Onwuachi should all see a lot of time at DE in 2008. Henderson and Wilhite will provide some nice depth and talent.

That's about the size of it!

* Henderson suffered a heat stroke that triggered a disease he stills suffers from. He now lives with chronic diarrhea and gas which makes it very hard for him to keep weight on (or get a date I'd imagine?). He's good for a few plays here and there but wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a break out season.

[lawrence21]

all right I confused his freshman season with his sophomore season. But if I read right he has 20 career sacks? 11 coming into this year. 9 this year? I think. Karon Riley had 29 sacks in 2 years. WVS had 2 good years in his college career and will never play a down in the NFL. Karon Riley only had 2 seasons because he transferred. Karon Rileys sacks equal out to 58 career sacks had he four full years. I never said Willie sucked but lets not make him out to be some god on the gridiron that will never be replaced. He is not NFL talent level and the fact that you tout him says a lot about the quality of our players, we need to bring in talent so that a kid like Vandesteeg never sees the field because he isn't good enough.

[Maximus]

we need to bring in talent so that a kid like Vandesteeg never sees the field because he isn't good enough.

A first team all-conference defensive end is not good enough. Gotcha.

So if Karon Riley would've had a sixth and seventh year in college, he would've ended up with 58 career sacks? Makes sense.

[oleboy41]

Glad to see other posters (nice Grunkie) have ripped lawrence21's idiotic comment about WVDS.

IMHO, WVDS is the 1 senior we will truly miss next year. Don't get me wrong, we'll have to replace some LBs and Simmons at TE, and Monroe and Kucek. But as much as those other seniors were solid contributors, none of them was a real game-changer the way WVDS was for us this season. Without WVDS, we easily lose at Ill and probably several of the other wins, too.

I like DO, but he hasn't been dominating. Jacobs did play a bit at the end of the year and looked decent at times. I do really like our DTs, with Brown & Small looking very solid this year and Kirksey on the rise, but I just don't know if we're going to have that difference-making pass-rushing DE next year. Hopefully someone can step up or we can recruit someone.

Kirskey is a DT too. He and Edwards both like like real players. Searcy will be here in 09 as well. That means that as of right now in 2010 we'll have Edwards and Kirskey, Searcy, and Jacobs and Whilite both have the size to play DT as well, plus we'll likely recruit a few DTs before then as well

[Costa Rican Gopher]

1) Lawrence you're an idiot
2) WVD had two good years in his college career? How many good years has Onwauchi had?
3) I'd never before heard it called a benefit to have played next to Mark Losli
4) Karon Riley played four year full years (Not two as you suggest) just as WVD did
5) What does Karon Riley have to do with anything? Reggie White was much better than Karon Riley...So what?

[Schnoodler]

Let me make 21's point in a way that's not disrespectful to one of our best players and doesn't piss everyone off.

The guy who fills Willie's shoes may not perform quite as well, but maybe does as we have some talent thats been waiting for snaps. But the bigger issue is that the Dline works as a unit. So overall even if we take a small step back at Willies spot he wasn't so good that there will be a huge drop off because the next guy will be at least OK and the rest of the line get's that much better. So maybe the sacks and pressure from Willie's spot aren't as good but overall I think we get more sacks, stops, and pressure.

And I think in college ball, because of graduations and maturing younger players, I don't think you can analyze a player loss in terms of the position. There's too much flux. You have to analyze the entire unit.

[lawrence21]

so you are admitting that there are players better than our very own Minnesota born William Vandesteeg? amazing, I thought he was awesome and there is no DE better than him, he was completely dominating that is why USC, Florida, OSU, Texas and everyone else was after him coming out of high school? Does anybody truly believe that Willie would start at any 1 of these Universities? And Karon Riley only played 2 years of college ball at the UofM not 4 as you suggest. Onwuachi has potential and athleticism and you don't need stats to prove you are good.

[lawrence21]

Vandesteeg is off limits to talk about because he has gained god status. He is now as awesome as Mike Sherels was, we don't bad mouth Sherels. Will Sam Maresh be off limits if he turns out to be a bust? I guess we don't bad mouth Minnesota kids, unless they choose to play elsewhere than we can tear into them.

[GopherMac]

Just quit while you're way behind, Lawrence. You can't fix your idiotic comments and you lose credibility about anything you say now. Take a two-week vacation, let things cool down here, and then come back with something half-witted to say. If you don't think Willie was one of the top players to line up at DE for the Gophers in the past twenty years then you are not capable of adding to these message boards.

[cjcarter8]

21, so by your arithmetic Eric Decker isn't good reciever just because he wasn't highly recruited. Marion Barber and Lawrence Maroney weren't highly recruited either. Last time I checked they aren't doing too bad. Players mature at different times. Some in high school, some once they hit campus. WVS is proven performer, that is why everyone is saying he is a big loss. There isn't a proven performer anywhere behind him. Potential doesn't equal performance.

[lawrence21]

If you don't think Willie was one of the top players to line up at DE for the Gophers in the past twenty years then you are not capable of adding to these message boards.

WOW! We all have to like the same player?

[lawrence21]

You can say Decker and Vandesteeg are our best players and stat wise you can back that up. My point is would either of them start on a national championship team like Florida or USC? You can like them and that is fine but lets not pretend that there are no better players in the college game today. I personally believe neither one of them would smell the field on a #1 ranked team in the country. They were both our go to guys on O and on D respectively. My opinion is WVDS is not as good as people believe and I am entitled to that position. I have not taken any personal shots at any of you.

[GopherMac]

This has nothing to do with liking a player or not. I would think looking at the production the player had, the talent that surrounded the player, the scores of the games that were played, and other assorted factors. How many games that Willie played in were we down by double digits and teams were able to just run the ball at us? How many average players lined up next to him during his tenure? How many defensive coaches were there during his tenure?

Who cares if you like him or not!!!

[GopherMac]

Lawrence, would Onwuachi be starting for USC?

[Maximus]

You can like them and that is fine but lets not pretend that there are no better players in the college game today.

No one said that. You're the football mastermind that turned a thread about Raymond Henderson into I'll take Onwuachi over WDVS any day.

WDVS: 1st two seasons: 65 tackles; 17.5 TFLs; 10 sacks
DO: 1st two seaons: 32 tackles; 7 TFLs; 2 sacks

[cjcarter8]

I guess they aren't good enough to start for those teams but the big ten sure seems to feel that they are good enough to all-conference players. By the way, whats the deal with ragging on these guys? They are good players. Hopefully, there will be someone to fill WVS shoes next year. It might be Onuwachi but lifting weights doesnt win games.

[Costa Rican Gopher]

No one was bragging up WVS as some kind of God because he’s from Minnesota you’re just backpedaling from the beating you’re taking. We were talking about who would be the DE’s next year as we lose WVD. You came out of left field and said the following……

“I would take Onwuachi over Vandesteeg any day. WVS was highly overrated after a freshman year in which he benefited from Anthony Montgomery, Daryl Reid and Mark Losli.”

You stand by the statement that you'd take Onwauchi over WVS? I might make that my new sig.

“ CRG, so you are admitting that there are players better than our very own Minnesota born William Vandesteeg? amazing, I thought he was awesome and there is no DE better than him, he was completely dominating that is why USC, Florida, OSU, Texas and everyone else was after him coming out of high school? Does anybody truly believe that Willie would start at any 1 of these Universities? And Karon Riley only played 2 years of college ball at the UofM not 4 as you suggest. Onwuachi has potential and athleticism and you don't need stats to prove you are good.”

Wow, just because I’m bored I think I’ll take the time to dissect this one.

“CRG, so you are admitting that there are players better than our very own Minnesota born William Vandesteeg?”
A: Yes I admit there are lots of players better than WVS, just not Derrick Onwauchi. When did I say otherwise?

“Does anybody truly believe that Willie would start at any 1 of these Universities?”
A: Not sure. What does that have to do with next years Gopher DE’s or Derrick Onwauchi? .

“Karon Riley only played 2 years of college ball at the UofM not 4 as you suggest.
A: You said Riley only had two years to accumulate his 28 sacks and that if he’d had two more years he would have had (lol) 56. In reality he played at SMU for two years and then took a red shirt year while he transferred to the U, so as Maximus (?) posted, unless you’re granting him a 6th and 7th year of eligibility that’s not possible.….What exactly does any of this have to do with you thinking Derrick Onwauchi is better than WVS?

* BTW, if you’d take Derrick Onwuachi any day of the week over WVS I’d like to invite you draft first in my $100 fantasy football league next year.

[gopherguy05]

Something tells me Lawrence is the guy or a buddy of the guy WVS had that little dust-up with a year or so back and won't let it slide...

Was he the best defensive player the Gophers have ever had? No. Was he pretty damn good thus year? yes.

DO shown any of the potential to do what WVS has done? Not yet, but I sure hope he does next fall.
Lawrence, you just sound bitter and jaded. You don't need to like him, but you do need to recognize that he did play well this year and was our best D-lineman.

Maybe next fall it will be DO? Who knows....

[lawrence21]

I did recognize that he was OUR best d lineman my point was he will not be greatly missed. Everyone else turned this into if you don't want to sniff willies jock than you are out of your mind. I do stand by my statement that i would take Onwuachi over Vandesteeg any day. Onwuachi came from Nigeria and had never even heard of football until his freshman year of high school. He is raw and unproven as you all jumped on. BUT based on his measurables if I was a coach at the next level I would take him and figure he could be coached up and taught technique and he has a high ceiling. We know what Vandesteeg has done and he has probably reached the ceiling of his talent level. So WVDS was good for us for 2 years and we appreciate his contributions but he has been overly valued. The last time I was kicked off this board was for saying that Mike Sherels was slow and a liability for us but because he was a former walk on who became team captain I was jumped all over. Because someone has stats and works very hard does not mean that they are the greatest players. Now stop posting on this subject and I will let it go also. I want the gophers to be great like everyone else we just differ on who the great players are.


and no I do not know any of the people in the vandesteeg scuffle last year

[Maximus]

I did recognize that he was OUR best d lineman my point was he will not be greatly missed. Everyone else turned this into if you don't want to sniff willies jock than you are out of your mind. I do stand by my statement that i would take Onwuachi over Vandesteeg any day. Onwuachi came from Nigeria and had never even heard of football until his freshman year of high school. He is raw and unproven as you all jumped on. BUT based on his measurables if I was a coach at the next level I would take him and figure he could be coached up and taught technique and he has a high ceiling.



Who cares what he does at the next level? This is about the 2009 gopher football season and the player you'd take over a two-time all big ten defensive end has ONE season before he's gone to make even a fraction of the same impact. We all hope he does.

BTW...how many GMs and coaches have lot their jobs by obsessing over "measurables -Ryan Leaf" instead of "immeasurables - Tom Brady"?

[ditt1605]

I do hope Henderson steps up. He had the talent to be a big time player before all of his issues.

As for the Willie debate, there really shouldn't be any at all. He was playing on the same line with Onwuachi for much of the year. Willie clearly came out with better stats while being focused on by the offense. If anything, Onwuachi should have benfited from all the attention being paid to Willie and put up better numbers. That said, I realize that Onwuachi hasn't been playing football for that long and the coaches definitely see some talent. Hopefully that turns into something on the field and he will become a stud, but last season (and through their careers at this point) Willie was the better player by a wide margin.

As far as NFL prospects go, there are tons of guys who were big time in college that never make the pros. Making the pros should have no bearing on how you look at a guys college career.

[Costa Rican Gopher]

"Now stop posting on this subject and I will let it go also."

This is post of the year material.

[lawrence21]

do you have some sort of man crush on WVDS? maybe you should get him some gopher gear from Victoria Secret for Christmas.

[weezy]

lawrence, did WVD bang your girlfriend or what? Give it up dude, you are wrong.

[lawrence21]

No, apparently Costa Rican is banging WVDS. The new title of this thread is "we all circle jerk to Willie and take turns sucking the sweat from his jock (and we hate all non Caucasian players)"

[DiehardGopher]

OK this is too long and I am not going to finish reading all this babble but I will make one point. lawrence, you are an idiot. You argue that Karon Riley was a better player than WVDS because he had better stats than Willie. Then you go on to try and prove that DO is better than WVDS and throw out this gem, that completely contradicts your previous argument by the way. "Onwuachi has potential and athleticism and you don't need stats to prove you are good."

[lawrence21]

I get it. WVDS white, Karon Riley and Onwuachi Black.

[GoldenGo4Fan]

I get it. WVDS white, Karon Riley and Onwuachi Black.

Reading this thread I just took you as someone that had a different opinion than most on this board. While I would strongly disagree with your opinion of WVS I never thought you were a complete idiot like many others............ UNTIL NOW!!!!!!

[GSLgopher]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet about WVDS, but I'll throw it out there. WVDS set the school record for career tackles for loss, that's a pretty impressive stat indicating the impact he has had on the Gopher football program.

[Costa Rican Gopher]

"WVDS set the school record for career tackles for loss"

Just lucky....

[Schnoodler]

I'm sure it's because he's white. Most of those tackles were actually by black athletes, he just got the credit for them.

[GopherinPhilly]

I get it. WVDS white, Karon Riley and Onwuachi Black.

You are an ignorant bigot or a trouble maker...either way, take your idiocy elsewhere.

WVS has had a great year regardless of the color of his skin. Why does one persons success have to demean anothers?

If winning and losing, success and failure didn't matter we wouldn't keep score and have stats. But the idea that second place isn't great or third best is great is rediculous. Further, as long as a player does his best, no matter what the result, they leave the field a winner in their heart...if not usually on the score board.

WVS always left it all on the field, even last year when he played hurt all year.

He would have been a winner to me even if he only had one sack.

[tikited]

I get it. WVDS white, Karon Riley and Onwuachi Black.

Come on, don't go there!

[Maximus]

I get it. WVDS white, Karon Riley and Onwuachi Black.

Must be why we "revered" Mike Sherels so much....oh wait.

[Golden Elephant]

The funniest part of this thread is when lawrence21 admitted he was kicked off this board before.

The second funniest is lawrence21 trying to accuse others of being jock-sniffers when he uses a players name and number as his moniker.

Maximus, nice comment on the Sherels race thing.

[coolhandgopher]

Wow, my head is about to explode! Lawrence, you get some sort of trophy for contradicting yourself and making yourself appear foolish while continually digging yourself a hole and making yourself look even more foolish. Let's follow the arc of this post and your contributions:

* sonnygarcia asks an innocent question about Ray Henderson's health and possible contribution next season. You take a shot at him (you don't get out much) then proceed to take a shot at the best defensive lineman the Gophers had this season, proclaiming WVDS overrated and will not be missed because of Derrick Onwuachi.

* when challenged with your statement, you give us Onwuachi's measurables and question WVDS's ability to play in the NFL. . .both of which HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER WVDS WAS A GOOD COLLEGE PLAYER OR NOT!

* you assert that WVDS only had two good bookend seasons-his freshman and senior season. For one, his standout seasons were his sophomore and senior seasons. During his junior season, he was hampered by a broken hand and the entire defense around him struggled. And please show me freshmen defensive lineman who dominate anywhere in the nation, regardless of their recruiting rankings. They are a very rare thing.

* You then compare WVDS' career to Karon Riley who transferred into the "U" and played his junior and senior season here and was a spectacular player for the Gophers. However, you project Riley's career sacks at the "U" to be 58, not taking into account that Riley had two years of college ball and another year of getting stronger while sitting out his transfer season before playing for Minnesota. WVDS was starting and playing for the Gophers during his first three years at the "U". Your logic is the same as projecting a guy who hits a home run on opening day will end up with 162 home runs.

* In your very next response, in a reply to CostaRican, you claim that "you don't need stats to prove you're good". Mind boggling!!! Your whole argument about WVDS has been that he only produced 20 sacks in his career, that Karon Riley produced 29, would have produced 58. . .and now you try saying that stats don't prove you're good-instead I guess we're back to measureables to judge a player? How they look getting off the bus? On their walk into the stadium?

* Your next level of defense is that WVDS would not start at Florida or USC. No one was saying that he would. What is irrefutable is that he was an All Big Ten defensive end who garnered 11.5 sacks this season. That sort of production from your defensive end, regardless of the program they attend or the recruiting rankings or the measureables, equates to a very good college player.

* When your logic and words continue to be easily refuted, you turn to claiming that CostaRican must be banging WVDS. Nice. If I didn't question you before, now your defense that's usually practiced by 8th graders now is firmly giving me an idea of your level of idiocy.

* Finally, the kicker-you claim to be race to be the reason everyone is defending WVDS. Really?????? Wow, and you state that Onwuachi and Riley are despised because they're black. Huh????? No one said anything disparaging about either of those players-in fact, you are the only one in this whole entire thread who said anything disparaging about a player when you called WVDS overrated and said he wouldn't be missed! As best I can tell, when someone describes Onwuachi as unproven, it is because, in actuality, he is unproven.

Not only that, earlier you claim how you were lambasted by posters when you claimed Mike Sherels wasn't any good. So, tell me, were the posters on the board racist and bigoted then, when defending Sherels?

My goodness, talk about ignorant, lazy, and ill-informed. Instead of simply saying, 'I think Onwuachi will step up and won't make us miss WVDS' you take a shot at WVDS and then when your argument is refuted at every turn you rely on 8th grade level insults and finally, a claim of racism, because posters actually have the audacity to express appreciation of WVDS' play for the "U". And keep in mind, no one, NO ONE, disparaged Onwuachi and Riley. Wow. . .we haven't seen such an idiotic display on these boards in quite some time Lawrence. Pathetic work on your part.

[GoAUpher]

Coolhand: Can I start the slow clap now? Bravo! A truly thorough fisking. :D

Lawrence:Something for you to ponder..."Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment." Let no one ever question your commitment!!!

[Monty519]

LOL, well that pretty much sums up this thread. Thanks coolhandgopher lol.

[cjcarter8]

Well lawerence 21 sure did a good job of pissing everyone off. Lets just hope whoever plays DE next year plays well enough to help the team win. Was WVS a good player? Yes. Will anyone on the roster right now be that Good? Don't Know. Does it matter? If the team wins, certainly not.