Hold on tight...

[Gopher4Life]

...you won't likely enjoy where this ride's about to take you, your children, and your grandkids.

Our messiah is seeking to raise the federal debt limit to cover the cost of his stimulus package (that didn't actually stimulate the economy) plus the anticipated cost of Obamacare.

President Obama: “Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.”

That just about says it all.

[UpnorthGo4]

I am going to take the Republican health care position on this issue. Since it will have very little impact on me personally, I could not care less about it. It will be somebody else's problem. Let them deal with it.

[LesBolstad]

That's what she said.

Actually, even the Wall Street Journal has acknowledged the package is helping the economy.

[jamiche]

...you won't likely enjoy where this ride's about to take you, your children, and your grandkids.

Our messiah is seeking to raise the federal debt limit to cover the cost of his stimulus package (that didn't actually stimulate the economy) plus the anticipated cost of Obamacare.

President Obama: “Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.”

That just about says it all.

I'm strapped in, G4! Who knows where that socialist/marxist is going to take us. I think the next thing he's going to do is engineer a gov't takeover of medicare.

[Gopher4Life]

jamiche,
Too late for that one. They already run Medicare and it's going broke.

Leo,
The stimulus package hasn't accomplished what its proponents said it would. We were told it had to be adopted pronto or else and also that unemplyment would not rise. It's a poor plan built on miscalculations and lies with a god-awful price tag and meager results.

Upnorth,
There are GOP proposals out there if you'd bother to look. Don't expect the main stream media to bring them to you. At this point, they're still in bed with Obama. You'll know a GOP plan when you see it because it will solve actual problems, make sense, cost less, and avoid a federal take-over.

[bga1]

That's what she said.

Actually, even the Wall Street Journal has acknowledged the package is helping the economy.

Is the stimulus helping the economy? Well it has to be to some degree because money is now finally being spent and that means some people are being employed.

The real question is whether the stimulus was an effective way to spend 800 billion dollars that we don't have. Since it was billed as an emergency measure and since less than 20% of it will be spent by year's end and since the economy is still floundering now- I think one would have to conclude that it was not an efficient or prudent plan. One would have to analyze how many people have really found jobs because of it and on that basis what has been the effective cost per job. My guess is that it would have been a lot cheaper, more efficient and much, much quicker to have just given the taxpayers a tax holiday for several months and let the economy stimulate itself. Oh well.

[Gopher4Life]

>>...and let the economy stimulate itself.<<

That wouldn't have allowed Obama to grab control of more of America, pay back election favors, and buy future votes.

[jamiche]

Is the stimulus helping the economy? Well it has to be to some degree because money is now finally being spent and that means some people are being employed.

The real question is whether the stimulus was an effective way to spend 800 billion dollars that we don't have. Since it was billed as an emergency measure and since less than 20% of it will be spent by year's end and since the economy is still floundering now- I think one would have to conclude that it was not an efficient or prudent plan. One would have to analyze how many people have really found jobs because of it and on that basis what has been the effective cost per job. My guess is that it would have been a lot cheaper, more efficient and much, much quicker to have just given the taxpayers a tax holiday for several months and let the economy stimulate itself. Oh well.

Beej: As has been pointed out to you multiple times, the reason that more of the stimulus dollars haven't been spent is that over half of the stimulus is in the form of tax cuts. So, yes, most taxpayers are getting a tax holiday.

I admire your relentless refusal to allow facts to get in the way of any of your arguments.

[jamiche]

"You'll know a GOP plan when you see it because it will solve actual problems, make sense, cost less, and avoid a federal take-over."

We saw a lot of that over the last eight years.

[Gopher4Life]

Both of us can look to the past, but what's the point? If we deal with the present, the GOP has better ideas regarding reasonable, fiscally responsible health care reform, but the Dems have the votes.

[bga1]

Beej: As has been pointed out to you multiple times, the reason that more of the stimulus dollars haven't been spent is that over half of the stimulus is in the form of tax cuts. So, yes, most taxpayers are getting a tax holiday.

I admire your relentless refusal to allow facts to get in the way of any of your arguments.

I appreciate your relentless ability to exaggerate liberal talking points while obsuring facts. The government states that 288 million of the funds are or will be "tax cuts". First- that's not close to 50%- it's actually 36.8%. Unfortunately, it's not even that because the lion's share of that is going to people WHO DON'T PAY taxes. How can you get a tax cut if you don't pay taxes? Get it? It's a campaign payback- it's spreading the weath around to people who for the large part have been irresponsible in the past. It's spreading the wealth to those who for the most part didn't do what the President yesterday said to the children was necessary.

It definitely is not taxpayers getting a tax holiday. For those who earn enough to pay taxes it's a pretty short holiday or no holiday at all. I certainly didn't see anything in my mailbox.


Jamiche- I can tell there's an intelligent person over there. Start being intellectually honest with yourself. Your head is not in the sand by accident- it's there on purpose. You don't even want to believe what you know.

[tikited]

Both of us can look to the past, but what's the point? If we deal with the present, the GOP has better ideas regarding reasonable, fiscally responsible health care reform, but the Dems have the votes.

When have they ever used these so called ideas in the past? Or did they just all of a sudden come up with some??

[jamiche]

I appreciate your relentless ability to exaggerate liberal talking points while obsuring facts. The government states that 288 million of the funds are or will be "tax cuts". First- that's not close to 50%- it's actually 36.8%. Unfortunately, it's not even that because the lion's share of that is going to people WHO DON'T PAY taxes. How can you get a tax cut if you don't pay taxes? Get it? It's a campaign payback- it's spreading the weath around to people who for the large part have been irresponsible in the past. It's spreading the wealth to those who for the most part didn't do what the President yesterday said to the children was necessary.

It definitely is not taxpayers getting a tax holiday. For those who earn enough to pay taxes it's a pretty short holiday or no holiday at all. I certainly didn't see anything in my mailbox.


Jamiche- I can tell there's an intelligent person over there. Start being intellectually honest with yourself. Your head is not in the sand by accident- it's there on purpose. You don't even want to believe what you know.

Beej: We had a related conversation about a month ago and when you include all of the categories, the tax cuts are slightly over half of the bill.

I'm sorry that you have to pay taxes, beej. Based on your frequent references to the burden of being an economically successful man, I'm going to assume that you had absolutely no direct or indirect, private or public, help along the way. For that you should be congratulated. As for the folks who don't make enough to pay taxes (who you seem to assume are lazy asses), I'm sure many of them would trade places with you yesterday.

[jamiche]

Both of us can look to the past, but what's the point? If we deal with the present, the GOP has better ideas regarding reasonable, fiscally responsible health care reform, but the Dems have the votes.

The only ideas I've heard from the GOP are no.

[Gopher4Life]

tikited,

>>When have they ever used these so called ideas in the past? Or did they just all of a sudden come up with some??<<

What does it matter? Look forward, buddy. We could have a much stronger, more sensible health care reform bill than the one Obama will be promoting tonight. Why settle for a bad bill?

jamiche,

>>The only ideas I've heard from the GOP are no.<<

Then you're not really listening.

[bga1]

Beej: We had a related conversation about a month ago and when you include all of the categories, the tax cuts are slightly over half of the bill.

I'm sorry that you have to pay taxes, beej. Based on your frequent references to the burden of being an economically successful man, I'm going to assume that you had absolutely no direct or indirect, private or public, help along the way. For that you should be congratulated. As for the folks who don't make enough to pay taxes (who you seem to assume are lazy asses), I'm sure many of them would trade places with you yesterday.


As to the first comment look it up - you are wrong by the government's own calculations.

As to the second-I didn't grow up rich nor do I consider myself rich now. I've worked hard, been honest and stuck with it and it's worked out very well by the grace of God. There are some who have worked hard yet not been so fortunate- they take nothing from society but can pay little or nothing in taxes. I have no problem with them.

A large group that doesn't pay taxes and exacts a huge toll on society are indeed lazy and I'm tired of watching society enable them to do so. It creates a culture that cycles from generation to generation sucking the life out of the productive portion of society. If they attempt to turn it around through real effort then I am supportive of a hand up rather than a continuous hand out.

Last point is that the government gives nothing. The government is a conduit for what the people give it. We have a great system - historically- that great people fought and died for. Now we have a new generation that seeks to turn the old principles on their head because we have a "new fast changing world" that makes these old principles outdated. I say hogwash.

[Gopher4Life]

>>The government is a conduit for what the people give it.<<

Government takes my money and hands it out...keeping a significant portion for itself, of course. I can only wonder why even more taxpayers aren't outraged.

[jamiche]

>>The government is a conduit for what the people give it.<<

Government takes my money and hands it out...keeping a significant portion for itself, of course. I can only wonder why even more taxpayers aren't outraged.

Outside of a couple of the petro states (and if you want to live in Saudi Arabia, have at it) and some gruesome third world tribal regions, is there any country in the world where you would not pay taxes? In fact, are there any countries where you would pay less in taxes as a percentage of income?

Stop whining, G4. An orderly society costs money. It's the price we pay to live in the best country in the world.

[jamiche]

As to the first comment look it up - you are wrong by the government's own calculations.

As to the second-I didn't grow up rich nor do I consider myself rich now. I've worked hard, been honest and stuck with it and it's worked out very well by the grace of God. There are some who have worked hard yet not been so fortunate- they take nothing from society but can pay little or nothing in taxes. I have no problem with them.

A large group that doesn't pay taxes and exacts a huge toll on society are indeed lazy and I'm tired of watching society enable them to do so. It creates a culture that cycles from generation to generation sucking the life out of the productive portion of society. If they attempt to turn it around through real effort then I am supportive of a hand up rather than a continuous hand out.

Last point is that the government gives nothing. The government is a conduit for what the people give it. We have a great system - historically- that great people fought and died for. Now we have a new generation that seeks to turn the old principles on their head because we have a "new fast changing world" that makes these old principles outdated. I say hogwash.

You are wrong on the tax cuts.

From what I have witnessed firsthand the younger generation is working very damn hard in the toughest economy that I've ever seen.

It's really our generation that is the problem. We refused to pay our fair share, though we wanted and got more than our fair share. We are the pigs at the trough, not the young folks.

[diehard]

You know I would really like to see my taxes used efficiently. The IRS, government schools, medicare, social security, medicaid, FEMA, OSHA, the Intelligence Services, and a myriad of other federal and state institutions are incredibly poorly run. I would really like to see them fixed before adding to their list of miserable failures.

[jamiche]

"Too late for that one. They already run Medicare and it's going broke."

Medicare is a great program. If nothing changes, it will go broke in about ten years because it has been underfunded for the last thirty.

[Gopher4Life]

jamiche,

>>It's the price we pay to live in the best country in the world.<<

Someone's really got you fooled, buddy. Precisely how long into the calenday year do you think you and I should work for our government? It's about June 1st right now, isn't it? We won't even discuss the waste, the freeloaders, and the boondoggle projects in this thread. Maybe we should work for Uncle Same until September and then pray that we're allowed to keep the rest to pay our own bills.

>>...it will go broke in about ten years because it has been underfunded for the last thirty.<<

Spoken like a true liberal for whom more funding is always the answer to every problem, both real and invented.

Medicare is going broke due to mismanagement and uncontrolled costs. Same with the Post Office.

[tikited]

>>The government is a conduit for what the people give it.<<

Government takes my money and hands it out...keeping a significant portion for itself, of course. I can only wonder why even more taxpayers aren't outraged.

Name a better system/country that doesn't tax its people.

[bga1]

Name a better system/country that doesn't tax its people.


Since you can't name a better country and neither can I - tell me why Obama desires to "fundamentally change" America and why his wife has never been proud of America until Barack ran for President?

Every developed nation I know of taxes it's people. There is a threshold where you cross the line and create a permanent nanny state. That's where the President wants to go and we should resist it.

[jamiche]

jamiche,

>>It's the price we pay to live in the best country in the world.<<

Someone's really got you fooled, buddy. Precisely how long into the calenday year do you think you and I should work for our government? It's about June 1st right now, isn't it? We won't even discuss the waste, the freeloaders, and the boondoggle projects in this thread. Maybe we should work for Uncle Same until September and then pray that we're allowed to keep the rest to pay our own bills.

>>...it will go broke in about ten years because it has been underfunded for the last thirty.<<

Spoken like a true liberal for whom more funding is always the answer to every problem, both real and invented.

Medicare is going broke due to mismanagement and uncontrolled costs. Same with the Post Office.

As I said, go find a place where you don't have to pay taxes and see how life is there.

[jamiche]

Since you can't name a better country and neither can I - tell me why Obama desires to "fundamentally change" America and why his wife has never been proud of America until Barack ran for President?

Every developed nation I know of taxes it's people. There is a threshold where you cross the line and create a permanent nanny state. That's where the President wants to go and we should resist it.

Now we are back to the wife thing.

I wish you had been more concerned with the "permanent nanny state" when you hero signed the (still unfunded) prescription medication legislation.

[Gopher4Life]

How do you weak-reading jokers twist "we pay too much in taxes" into "we shouldn't pay any taxes"?

[jamiche]

How do you weak-reading jokers twist "we pay too much in taxes" into "we shouldn't pay any taxes"?

OK, head off to a country where you will pay less in taxes and let us know how life is there.

[diehard]

I know that America is the greatest country to have ever grace this planet. I know many may disagree, but that is one of the great things about America. We don't need more taxes. We don't need nearly as much taxation as we have. What we need is to build the greatest education system in the world. We have some work to do here. We need to offer that opportunity to all our legal young people. We also need to incent them to achieve in school by fairly enforcing the laws and regulations that will further level the playing field. Not more level for one than another. Our youth have to believe that their hard work in preparing for their productive lifes will be rewarded. Not with held from them by limited access for stolen from them in an unfair taxation system placed on the productive. Every American need to pay their fair share to fund the American government. They need to hold ownership in the activities in Washington so they will monitor what the unethical crooks of both parties have be doing. No one should resent paying their fair share of taxes. The fair tax assures that.

Let's make America even greater, not through more opressive taxes on any class or citizen, but by offering fair and unlimited opportunity and reward for achievement and productivity.

[bga1]

Now we are back to the wife thing.

I wish you had been more concerned with the "permanent nanny state" when you hero signed the (still unfunded) prescription medication legislation.

I wish he hadn't signed it either. Like every other government program they totally underestimated how much it would cost and ti turns out it's double what they had figured. Does it then scare you when Obama says this new plan will cost us nothing? It should.

[bga1]

As I said, go find a place where you don't have to pay taxes and see how life is there.


oooooooooooooooooh! The liberal Obama lover says love it or leave it while we have his Prez who wants to fundamentally change it!

[Moonlight]

I really enjoy the fact the Michelle Obama was anticipated by 'many here on board' to be a liability - in reality she is a great asset. She is terrific. IIRC the phrase was something like, "I can wait til they start looking into Michelle's past".
Her statement was hyperbole, something she's learned she can't do as wife of the president (While I'm assuming we're all college graduates, I'll include a definition: Hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. I guess you could argue she really, really meant it but I think in that case you would be delusional).

[jamiche]

oooooooooooooooooh! The liberal Obama lover says love it or leave it while we have his Prez who wants to fundamentally change it!

Nah, beej. I'm just trying to get your pal to see that there is a correlation between taxes and orderly societies where the is a high quality of life. He could make use of those damn taxes that he pays by going to his local library, assuming that they have them in OK, and research it.

I don't love Obama. I expect that he will disappoint me more than I would wish. I just can't figure out why you guys think he's a marxist/socialist devil. It mystifies me.

[jamiche]

I wish he hadn't signed it either. Like every other government program they totally underestimated how much it would cost and ti turns out it's double what they had figured. Does it then scare you when Obama says this new plan will cost us nothing? It should.

I don't recall you complaining about it back then, beej. Everybody knew it was unfunded.

[bga1]

I really enjoy the fact the Michelle Obama was anticipated by 'many here on board' to be a liability - in reality she is a great asset. She is terrific. IIRC the phrase was something like, "I can wait til they start looking into Michelle's past".
Her statement was hyperbole, something she's learned she can't do as wife of the president (While I'm assuming we're all college graduates, I'll include a definition: Hyperbole: exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. I guess you could argue she really, really meant it but I think in that case you would be delusional).


Hyperbole: That could be the new Obama family excuse for everything they say. Just say it- if it works out it was intended as literal, if not it was hyperbole.

Maybe an example of hyperbole would be: " If you like your health insurance, you can keep it."

[jamiche]

Hyperbole: That could be the new Obama family excuse for everything they say. Just say it- if it works out it was intended as literal, if not it was hyperbole.

Maybe an example of hyperbole would be: " If you like your health insurance, you can keep it."

Hey Beej: Why weren't you up in arms when the prescription benefits and the No Child Left Behind bills were passed? They were both unfunded. Why weren't you screaming about the cost of the Iraq War (also unfunded)? At least G4 got that one--though he may want to move to Iraq because I'd bet their taxes are pretty low. Where were you when your hero took a surplus and ran it into trillions in deficits? (And, yes, you will tell me that there was some democratic support for this spending. Idiots that they are, some actually believe in bipartisanship and working with the party in power. Wow, what a foolish concept!)

You seem to have found fiscal religion on 1/20/09. I can't figure it out.

[bga1]

Hey Beej: Why weren't you up in arms when the prescription benefits and the No Child Left Behind bills were passed? They were both unfunded. Why weren't you screaming about the cost of the Iraq War (also unfunded)? At least G4 got that one--though he may want to move to Iraq because I'd bet their taxes are pretty low. Where were you when your hero took a surplus and ran it into trillions in deficits? (And, yes, you will tell me that there was some democratic support for this spending. Idiots that they are, some actually believe in bipartisanship and working with the party in power. Wow, what a foolish concept!)

You seem to have found fiscal religion on 1/20/09. I can't figure it out.

Jamiche- I don't recall anything bi-partisan being posted by you regarding Bush or Obama for that matter. So you may be a hypocrite here.

Meanwhile- I believed in the Iraq war as a measure that needed to be done. Call me wrong but I am not going to argue against a cause I believed in. I thought it transcended cost considerations and I still do. We sent a message over there and we have not been attacked in 8 years. It would be awful but I would not at all be surprised if we are attacked here at home in the very near future. We are now sending a message of weakness to terror.

As to spending, I never commented on this board regarding politics until the Bush bashing began and I decided to take up his defense. I hereby apologize for any overspending related to No Child Left Behind (which I admit I thought was a decent idea at the time- and it has worked to some degree) or the prescription drug benefit. I am also sorry that Bush waffled and signed off on SCHIP increases.

Maybe you now want to join me and tell all of us what things Obama is doing that you don't like- considering he is blowing the doors off of any spending Bush ever did and considering that you now seem very in tune to spending issues.

[monk10]

It is okay to spend money you don't have on things you believe is important. However, it is a travesity to spend money we don't have on things you don't want.

Okay, got it here Gus.

[bga1]

It is okay to spend money you don't have on things you believe is important. However, it is a travesity to spend money we don't have on things you don't want.

Okay, got it here Gus.

Good- it's about time you got it. Every war we have ever fought has been fought with funds beyond our normal budget. Are you happy that we are free (for now)?

[monk10]

Good- it's about time you got it. Every war we have ever fought has been fought with funds beyond our normal budget. Are you happy that we are free (for now)?

At least you are finally admitting your hypocrisy. That is a good first step. Now on to that intellectual integrity problem.

[Gopher4Life]

jamiche,

>>OK, head off to a country where you will pay less in taxes and let us know how life is there.<<

That's left wing fiscal irresponsibility at its finest, jamiche.