John Wall Chooses Kentucky

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http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/866037.html

Finally the saga is over! With Wall, Cousins, Orton, Bledsoe, and Hood joining Patterson and possibly Meeks, I would have to think this team may be the odds on favorite to win it all next year. Granted Coach Cal has some work to do to get all of these studs to mesh. While some of these guys might be around just one more year, this team is scary talented though.
 


Wow, what a class Calipari has. I am filled with envy.
 

I'm sure Calapari is a good recruiter but I would give a lot of credit for his class this year to William Wesley. :rolleyes:
 

I'd still put Kansas at #1 heading into next season, but at this point, I'd say Kansas and Kentucky look to be the frontrunners for the national title game next season (with Michigan State and Texas joining them in the Final Four).
 


Reserve said:
I'm sure Calapari is a good recruiter but I would give a lot of credit for his class this year to William Wesley. :rolleyes:
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Which prospects is Wes directly involved with? Zero. In fact, Wall's AAU coach/handler doesn't care for Calipari (and I can tell you why) and was pushing for Duke or, as a compromise, Miami. If you read his comments in the Jerry Meyers article he's not overjoyed by what transpired because he wasn't able to talk Wall into Duke. Wall chose Kentucky because he wanted to play for Calipari.

If you want a prospect that Wes is directly involved with and he's advising his parents it's Mike Gilchrist in the 2011 Class.
 

Something about this situation just doesn't seem on the up and up. Calipari has a month to recruit at Kentucky and all of a sudden he has four five-star players?
 

When will we see the penalties come?

I would really like to know when some of these programs will get hit by graduation rates. Kentucky appears to be on track to get nailed as is Memphis. How many of their great players have gradauted over the past several seasons. If you take the top level recruits like Rose, Wall, and Holiday you are going to lose them to the NBA. At some point their must be penalties and losses in scholarships. Only a handfull of teams have lost schollies because of it so far but a bunch more will be down the road. Most now are based on coaching changes and the following transfers as we saw with the Gopher Football team but in basketball each recruit means even more to a program because they dont have as many players. Recruiting and the balance of power in basketball will even out even more in the future and its one reason we are seeing some top level guys finding it hard to find schools right now.
 

Which prospects is Wes directly involved with? Zero.
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Of course not. He's just an ambassador of the program right ? :)

There are a few supremely slimey stories revolving around the recruitment of Wall and Wes' involvement in getting him to sign with Kentucky.

Before you go off and say " where's the proof ?!? "

It seems where there's enough smoke ...
 



I'm not a Calipari apologist and I certainly don't think he's a saint, but I don't think there's a lot of mystery involved with his great recruiting thus far at Kentucky. He's brought four guys on board (Wall, Cousins, Darnell Dodson, and Eric Bledsoe) who had either committed to him at Memphis or were seriously considering Memphis. Why wouldn't they want to play for Cal at Kentucky if they were considering playing for him at Memphis? Orton and Hood were already committed to Kentucky and decided to remain.
 

Reserve said:
Of course not. He's just an ambassador of the program right ? :)

There are a few supremely slimey stories revolving around the recruitment of Wall and Wes' involvement in getting him to sign with Kentucky.

Before you go off and say " where's the proof ?!? "

It seems where there's enough smoke ...
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What stories? Oh you mean the stories about K promising Clifton the world and then some if Wall signed with Duke?

Clifton doesn't like Calipari ( for the same reason he doesn't like Roy Williams) because he doesn't want his influence limited. He knows, when the time comes, Calipari will nudge Wall towards Leon Rose and Wes. Clifton doesn't want that. Roy has his NBA people that he nudges his players towards too as well. Clifton wants to be the "guy" and wants to benefit from the success of Wall (which Clifton has played a part in) on the next levels. He's scared he might get cut off.


Calipari works extremely hard and has a plethora of contacts-just like a lot of other highly successful coaches. We're talking about a man who wants to end summer recruiting, return it to the high schools and create a long dead period with zero contact-which is one of the keys to cleaning up the game. But he's the cheater? If Harrison Barnes commits to Duke or Carolina are you guys going to scream "cheaters" even though there's plenty of "smoke" for both those men?

If you're going to indict one man with circumstantial evidence, rumor and innuendo at least have the courtesy to indict them all.
 

Count me amongst the guys not surprised by these developments at all. Calipari knows how to play the game. Is it ethical? Is it moral? Who knows. But Calipari does know how to work it when it comes to getting the players he wants. And he's in the perfect situation for himself being the coach at a program where he can sell, sell and sell some more.

Certainly, he's a smooth operator and that's not necessarily a compliment. But hey, college basketball is a business of selling, much the same way as college football. And Calipari is the ultimate salesman.

Personally, I think he's a pretty slick character and not in a good way. But people in Kentucky will love him, as long as he wins the whole enchilada every year. If he fails to do that, they'll start the proverbial lynchings all over again.

All and all, it's a perfect match: The ultimate salesman and the fanbase that cares only about winning. Thankfully, we won't have to deal with either of them on an ongoing basis.
 

MRJ said:
Personally, I think he's a pretty slick character and not in a good way. But people in Kentucky will love him, as long as he wins the whole enchilada every year. If he fails to do that, they'll start the proverbial lynchings all over again.

All and all, it's a perfect match: The ultimate salesman and the fanbase that cares only about winning. Thankfully, we won't have to deal with either of them on an ongoing basis.
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I read things like this and just shake my head. What is so hard about understanding elite level programs? The expectations are no different at UK than they are at a Carolina or with Michigan football or for Gopher Hockey. I've even discovered that Minnesota Hockey has it's own TCP; full of delusional fans who bitch and moan about why the team isn't performing at an elite level and how "middle of the pack finishes two years in a row" are unacceptable. You can't judge an entire fanbase on the 1% lunatic fringe that exists everywhere in the sporting world.


Recruiting is salesmanship. Every coach has to sell their vision, their program, their university. To quote something Mike Decourcey wrote (and I'm paraphrasing) about one successful coach "You can't just show up wearing the school colors and expect them to sign on the dotted line just because you are who you are". You need some substance to it to not only sign these players but to do something with them once you get them on campus.

Calipari's got a degree in Marketing. He wants to be an innovator. I say good for him and good for us. How many coaches are working to open college basketball to the Chinese markets? How is that not good for the game? Not only in the hopes of landing a great future Chinese basketball talent but to attract Chinese students to Lexington. He's taking the provost with him to China this summer to have a University academic presence and attract students (not athletes) to UK. That kind of innovative thinking among coaches should be encouraged. We need more of that in the game.
 



The Truth said:
I read things like this and just shake my head. What is so hard about understanding elite level programs? The expectations are no different at UK than they are at a Carolina or with Michigan football or for Gopher Hockey. I've even discovered that Minnesota Hockey has it's own TCP; full of delusional fans who bitch and moan about why the team isn't performing at an elite level and how "middle of the pack finishes two years in a row" are unacceptable. You can't judge an entire fanbase on the 1% lunatic fringe that exists everywhere in the sporting world.


Recruiting is salesmanship. Every coach has to sell their vision, their program, their university. To quote something Mike Decourcey wrote (and I'm paraphrasing) about one successful coach "You can't just show up wearing the school colors and expect them to sign on the dotted line just because you are who you are". You need some substance to it to not only sign these players but to do something with them once you get them on campus.

Calipari's got a degree in Marketing. He wants to be an innovator. I say good for him and good for us. How many coaches are working to open college basketball to the Chinese markets? How is that not good for the game? Not only in the hopes of landing a great future Chinese basketball talent but to attract Chinese students to Lexington. He's taking the provost with him to China this summer to have a University academic presence and attract students (not athletes) to UK. That kind of innovative thinking among coaches should be encouraged. We need more of that in the game.
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First, it's what this "substance" might entail that is of concern. So you're saying you need to sell something in addition to your program, your university, your tradition, and the opportunities it presents because that simply isn't enough? There needs to be "more" to sell? That's what leads to NCAA violations.

Second, Chinese markets? WFT does this have to do with anything? Please explain how this is applicable to him getting John Wall to commit or his recruiting tactics overall. Doesn't make any sense.
 

MRJ said:
First, it's what this "substance" might entail that is of concern. So you're saying you need to sell something in addition to your program, your university, your tradition, and the opportunities it presents because that simply isn't enough? There needs to be "more" to sell? That's what leads to NCAA violations.
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Substance i.e. player development, pro opportunities, life after basketball, being part of a championship caliber team etc.

Second, Chinese markets? WFT does this have to do with anything? Please explain how this is applicable to him getting John Wall to commit or his recruiting tactics overall. Doesn't make any sense.
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You wanted to illustrate the downsides of salesmanship. I offered a counter to that and it's actually good fodder for discussion when we delve into the wider area outside of the particulars of the John Wall recruitment..which has already taken place. Helping the University, the community and the Commonwealth itself through your position is a great thing. Tubby did it and Calipari is continuing that but with a broader scope not just limited to charitable work.

Wouldn't it benefit Minnesota (the University and state) if Tubby got out in the international basketball community to not only help sell the basketball program and CBB in general to the wider world but help the University attract top notch foreign students by building relationships with government and educational contacts (like Calipari is doing) overseas?

Here are some good refernece materials for the Chinese discussion in regards to Calipari if you're so inclined. I personally think it's great and wish more coaches and Universities would sign on

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06E3DD163AF933A1575AC0A9619C8B63

http://www.kentucky.com/978/story/794885.html

http://chinasportstoday.com/en/blog/item/116/can_these_guys_fix_how_china_hoops
 

The Truth said:
Substance i.e. player development, pro opportunities, life after basketball, being part of a championship caliber team etc.



You wanted to illustrate the downsides of salesmanship. I offered a counter to that and it's actually good fodder for discussion when we delve into the wider area outside of the particulars of the John Wall recruitment..which has already taken place. Helping the University, the community and the Commonwealth itself through your position is a great thing. Tubby did it and Calipari is continuing that but with a broader scope not just limited to charitable work.

Wouldn't it benefit Minnesota (the University and state) if Tubby got out in the international basketball community to not only help sell the basketball program and CBB in general to the wider world but help the University attract top notch foreign students by building relationships with government and educational contacts (like Calipari is doing) overseas?

Here are some good refernece materials for the Chinese discussion in regards to Calipari if you're so inclined. I personally think it's great and wish more coaches and Universities would sign on

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06E3DD163AF933A1575AC0A9619C8B63

http://www.kentucky.com/978/story/794885.html

http://chinasportstoday.com/en/blog/item/116/can_these_guys_fix_how_china_hoops
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On the first point, I guess we are on the same page but call it something else. I agree with everything you said, but I personally file those under selling the program, university, tradition and opportunities (opportunities implying both at the school and those that being part of the school's program open up for future consideration). There is a fine line however and lots of programs go over it. That's the threat that I see and that's why I shudder a little bit when I hear about "handlers" and AAU coaches getting involved when it comes to having more "substance" to offer.

As for the whole Chinese basketball debate, it's an interesting one and certainly one of the only things I like about the NBA is that it is truly an international league nowadays. If college basketball adopts a similar philosophy, I'm all for it (at least in this specific regard). Admittedly, I don't know enough about it to really have an opinion.

If Calipari is attempting to lead the charge here, then I applaud him. What gives people the heebie jeebies (other than those who are suffering from plain old sour grapes) is what goes on behind the scenes. But it is what it is.
 

Some people would not.....

know the truth, if it bit them on the behind.
 

MRJ said:
If Calipari is attempting to lead the charge here, then I applaud him. What gives people the heebie jeebies (other than those who are suffering from plain old sour grapes) is what goes on behind the scenes. But it is what it is.
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Which is why it was a breath of fresh air to listen to Calipari explain why summer recruiting needs to end. I won't link the press conference where he talks about this (but you can find it if you want. It's pretty interesting stuff actually for basketball fans in my opinion) but the Tim Floyd/O.J. Mayo debacle got brought up and Calipari was very candid about what he sees wrong in the game and how to fix it.

He thinks an end to Summer recruiting and bringing the process back to the high school campuses would benefit everyone. The smaller schools would have a better opportunity to land guys who might be "second options" for upper tier schools and are placed on "hold" basically while other guys decide or even waver in their commitments. The grueling schedule coaches have to undertake just to be "seen" at multiple recruits games all over the summer. Lessen the influence of those people who seek to profit off of kids on the summer AAU circuit.

The NCAA would be wise to investigate it. Creating a dead or quiet period ala football in the summer months would be the way to start. I think most, if not all, of the coaches would support it because who doesn't want more time with their families? Especially the ones with younger children. I often dreamed of being a college coach one day until I realized how much I enjoyed watching and coaching my own son during the summer months. Recruiting, coaching, fundraising, etc take up a lot of time for a major D-1 coach. I don't think people realize it's almost a 24-7, 365 day a year job now.
 


Looks like a few scholarship players are going to be getting a friendly nudge from Calipari to leave the program. This puts them currently at 16 scholarships and if Meeks comes back they will be up to 17. That means that atleast 3 current players need to leave and most likely a 4th. But as Calipari says "it will work itself out this summer".
 

Aren't we just a bit.........

touchy? "THE TRUTH" is that slick Cal passes envelopes. Heck John Chaney (unstable as he may be) threatened to kill the man, because he knew "THE TRUTH."

Now Professor Harold Hill is a gifted orator, and as long his emisaries remain discrete, he will expand his empire. They may even get another National Championship very soon, but anyone who thinks this being done without courier service in naive.......or a big Kentucky fan.

The big time guys who typically wait to commit until the very end, come at a price.
 

Thi ridiculous part in all of this is all the kids who were already in the program that he is running off to make room for his players.

And Kentucky will always have the crazed fan reputation, which I hardly believe is 1% of their fans.

Heck, we have a UK fan on our board with almost 200 posts!
 

What stories? Oh you mean the stories about K promising Clifton the world and then some if Wall signed with Duke?
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Actually, this has been my favorite - But I've seen a few different amounts. The sleaze factor in this one is fantastic.

True or not it makes for great reading !

Brian Clifton is top recruit John Wall’s AAU basketball coach. There are corroborating reports from insiders that state that William Wesley (World Wide Wes…or the most most powerful man in sports) has given Brian Clifton a million dollar (that’s $1,000,000) loan providing Brian is able to push John Wall to commit to the school of WWW’s choosing. And what school would that be? The University of Kentucky and John Calipari, of course.

If Clifton is able to push John Wall into Kentucky, then the loan would be forgiven. This sort of “loan” is not uncommon in the NCAA. However, what is noteworthy in particular here is that Calipari is well known for telling recruits to go pro if they are a projected lottery pick.

Well, guess what?! John Wall is a projected top 5 pick. In fact, over 10 NBA teams have reportedly said John Wall would be their first pick in the lottery. So, why isn’t Calipari telling John Wall to go pro? as he says he tells recruits? The reason is obvious…

…a million dollars has already been spent on getting John Wall to Kentucky. There’s a lot of pressure on Calipari to deliver. If John Wall leaves for the NBA Calipari would be without the much needed point guard he needs and both he and WWW would be out $1,000,000.
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USTGopher said:
Looks like a few scholarship players are going to be getting a friendly nudge from Calipari to leave the program. This puts them currently at 16 scholarships and if Meeks comes back they will be up to 17. That means that atleast 3 current players need to leave and most likely a 4th. But as Calipari says "it will work itself out this summer".
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All the seniors were given an opportunity to stay with no strings attached. Dr. Todd, Mitch and Calipari agreed that was the fair thing to do. They've had three coaches in four years after all. Mike Porter decided that since he had his degree and he was married with a baby on the way he didn't want to continue his basketball career.

Donald Williams (who had a one year scholarship offer and nothing else after that for some reason. He didn't even play this year), A.J. Stewart, Josh Harrellson, DeAndre Liggins, Matt Pilgrim and maybe senior Kevin Galloway are the ones who look to be the most vulnerable. Some for academics and some because they just don't fit the system. My prediction:

Darius Miller
Patrick Patterson
John Wall
Eric Bledsoe
DeMarcus Cousins
Perry Stevenson (who might redshirt his senior year)
Ramon Harris
Darrell Dodson
Jon Hood
Daniel Orton
Kevin Galloway
Josh Harrellson


Stewart transfers, Liggins and Pilgrim are done in by grades/attitude issues, Donald Williams (I'm still not even certain he actually exists) who knows. The 13th scholarship is reserved for Meeks but the more I hear the more I'm questioning his return. It's a coin flip at this point with him leaning towards staying in if he can get guaranteed money as a 2nd rounder-which does happen.
 

Well, since all those millions are floating around to buy players I hope they saved some for Patrick to replace that busted 97 Jeep Cherokee with the rear door that's about to fall off.

Maybe John Wall can loan him some cash?
 

leftyslefty said:
touchy? "THE TRUTH" is that slick Cal passes envelopes. Heck John Chaney (unstable as he may be) threatened to kill the man, because he knew "THE TRUTH."

Now Professor Harold Hill is gifted orator, and as long his emisaries remain discrete he will expand his empire. They may even get another National Championship very soon, but anyone who thinks this being done without courier service in naive.......or a big Kentucky fan.
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You do know that he and Chaney are friends now right? That Coach Chaney has come to his charity stuff wrapped in ducttape and that Calipari scheduled Temple to play Memphis as a favor?

The big time guys who typically wait to commit until the very end, come at a price.
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You mean like Tubby Smith's number 1 recruiting class at UK in 2004? All of whom were down to the wire, late signees and involved one who decommitted from Michigan?

Dan Wetzel has said it best: Contrary to what the NCAA wants you to believe there are no black hats or white hats in the game; Only gray ones. Calipari gets hammered for rumor, perception, innuendo and despite the NCAA publically clearing him of any past or current infractions and not being the target of any current investigations he gets the reputation. Guys like K and Roy don't and they have far more public and dirtier hands than Calipari does. Why is that?

dayjoh said:
Thi ridiculous part in all of this is all the kids who were already in the program that he is running off to make room for his players.

And Kentucky will always have the crazed fan reputation, which I hardly believe is 1% of their fans.

Heck, we have a UK fan on our board with almost 200 posts!
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Hey, I just like discussing basketball. It's always nice to get outside perspectives and debate topics and issues. Crazy fans are everywhere but the percentages are about the same. The more fans you have the greater the actual number that inhabits that percentage. Having an active, open, massive online community (not just contained to one site..have you ever seen the plethora of UK sites on the internet? It is staggering) doesn't help with perception either.

And people get run off all the time when coaches change or to make room for players. Tubby did it at UK and he's done it at Minnesota. Pitino literally tried to run his entire team off his first year because he thought they couldn't play his system. You want a change? Make scholarships more than year to year deals that are dependent on an annual renewal. Good luck getting the NABC or anyone else to agree to that. Nobody wants to be stuck with a recruiting mistake for 4 years.

Reserve said:
Actually, this has been my favorite - But I've seen a few different amounts. The sleaze factor in this one is fantastic.

True or not it makes for great reading !
Click to expand...

Send me the link. I gotta read that one.


As a side note: This is all reminding me of the Pitino era. He was a slick, used car selling cheater who played playground ball. It kind of feels good to be hated again. Because if you're hated you know you're feared. Which is brings me to an interesting quote Pitino himself said about Calipari when Umass was in the process of hiring him:

"if all of your rivals are telling you not to hire a guy, then that’s who they fear and that’s, of course, who you hire."
 

In regards to this whole thread: Who cares?

This is a Minnesota Basketball board. Go Gophers!
 

ChemEGopher said:
In regards to this whole thread: Who cares?

This is a Minnesota Basketball board. Go Gophers!
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It's pretty obvious by the title of the thread what this is about, so if you don't want to read it, feel free to look at a different thread.
 

For me it's very simple, never trust a coach with slick hair. And Cal's hair is about as slick as they come. The man just oozes sleaze.
 

JDGopher said:
It's pretty obvious by the title of the thread what this is about, so if you don't want to read it, feel free to look at a different thread.
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What I would suggest is that if you want a board totally devoted to on-topic Minnesota basketball discussion you moderate it that way. Maybe issue a loyalty test/blood oath involving a human sacrifice to the Elder God Kevin McHale to keep undesirables like me from spoiling things.

Or you can have a board that thrives on discussion of all kinds relating to basketball while paying honor and homage to the tradition, history and current evens and happenings of Gopher ball that welcomes people to be a part of the community.

I prefer the latter because some great posters with interesting things (both about and not in regards to UMinn basketball) frequent this board and it's fun to engage those minds.
 

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