Why does everyone write off Joey King?

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mcal24

mcal24

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I don't understand all the negativity about Joey King. Seems like it's almost a consensus that he's a backup at best and we still have a gaping hole at PF. King was one of our best scorers the 2nd half of the season (when it mattered) and even Pitino said how great he was playing in stretches. His defense might have been a little below average, but I'm confident another off-season under Pitino and crew will get him bigger and stronger - Big Ten size. Look back at the huge improvement with EE and Mo last off-season. I would be very surprised if King isn't our starter next year and possibly 2015 as well.
 

"Why does everyone write off Joey King?"

Be ause they don't have a clue.. It's been shown here on GH time after time.
 

mcal24 said:
I don't understand all the negativity about Joey King. Seems like it's almost a consensus that he's a backup at best and we still have a gaping hole at PF. King was one of our best scorers the 2nd half of the season (when it mattered) and even Pitino said how great he was playing in stretches. His defense might have been a little below average, but I'm confident another off-season under Pitino and crew will get him bigger and stronger - Big Ten size. Look back at the huge improvement with EE and Mo last off-season. I would be very surprised if King isn't our starter next year and possibly 2015 as well.
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He is a nice offensive player and all but his post defense is bad, and his rebounding is even worse. I like him, but on a very good team he is a bench player. He will most likely start next season, but there is a reason Pitino have been hitting the PF transfer market.
 

mcal24 said:
I don't understand all the negativity about Joey King. Seems like it's almost a consensus that he's a backup at best and we still have a gaping hole at PF. King was one of our best scorers the 2nd half of the season (when it mattered) and even Pitino said how great he was playing in stretches. His defense might have been a little below average, but I'm confident another off-season under Pitino and crew will get him bigger and stronger - Big Ten size. Look back at the huge improvement with EE and Mo last off-season. I would be very surprised if King isn't our starter next year and possibly 2015 as well.
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It's because he doesn't have the look, I thought he got better at the end of the year, and if Martin passes him it will be because he's a heck of a player
 

mcal24 said:
I don't understand all the negativity about Joey King. Seems like it's almost a consensus that he's a backup at best and we still have a gaping hole at PF. King was one of our best scorers the 2nd half of the season (when it mattered) and even Pitino said how great he was playing in stretches. His defense might have been a little below average, but I'm confident another off-season under Pitino and crew will get him bigger and stronger - Big Ten size. Look back at the huge improvement with EE and Mo last off-season. I would be very surprised if King isn't our starter next year and possibly 2015 as well.
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If you watched the NCAA, or even the Gophers Big Ten games, you saw how important it was to be able to grab offensive rebounds to get second chance points and to clear your defensive rebounds to prevent second chance posts for the opposition. King is a below average athlete at the high major level and that is not going to change. He's not going to be the guy you want guarding Nigel Hayes, much less an Adrien Payne type. Joey averaged just 2.7 rebounds on the year and is a below average defender. On offense, it's really tough to have a high ceiling as team when both your 4 and your 5 are players that play below the rim. There were a TON of instances this year of Joey/Elliott/Mo getting the ball in a position where other teams big men finish with a dunk, and we ended up with a tough contested shot or a turnover due to the lack of athleticism. During the Big Ten regular season he had one game scoring in double figures which was the triple OT loss to Purdue.

Joey certainly improved throughout the year to the point where I think he can play some role on a good team. He's a good shooter, he's crafty, and he's willing to take a charge. He's not a guy that's going to play thirty minutes a game on a team that has aspirations to finish in the top four of the Big Ten or advance very far in the NCAA tournament.
 


EG#9 said:
If you watched the NCAA, or even the Gophers Big Ten games, you saw how important it was to be able to grab offensive rebounds to get second chance points and to clear your defensive rebounds to prevent second chance posts for the opposition. King is a below average athlete at the high major level and that is not going to change. He's not going to be the guy you want guarding Nigel Hayes, much less an Adrien Payne type. Joey averaged just 2.7 rebounds on the year and is a below average defender. On offense, it's really tough to have a high ceiling as team when both your 4 and your 5 are players that play below the rim. There were a TON of instances this year of Joey/Elliott/Mo getting the ball in a position where other teams big men finish with a dunk, and we ended up with a tough contested shot or a turnover due to the lack of athleticism. During the Big Ten regular season he had one game scoring in double figures which was the triple OT loss to Purdue.

Joey certainly improved throughout the year to the point where I think he can play some role on a good team. He's a good shooter, he's crafty, and he's willing to take a charge. He's not a guy that's going to play thirty minutes a game on a team that has aspirations to finish in the top four of the Big Ten or advance very far in the NCAA tournament.
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How do I reconcile the bolded claim with the fact that Mo led the conference in FG %? If our guys don't play above the rim, and it's a huge advantage to finish above the rim, why did he have the best FG % of any player in the B1G?
 

Dr.Don said:
"Why does everyone write off Joey King?"

Because they don't have a clue.. It's been shown here on GH time after time.
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Sometimes Dr. D - Sometimes. And, while I don't want to pick on a college kid who gives a lot of effort and plays pretty smart, Joey King is not a Big Ten Power Forward. Defensive rebounding is critical and that isn't Joey's strong suit.

I know that a lot of people judge basketball players by points scored. While that is important, if you don't grab defensive rebounds, you don't get as many chances to score. Also, at PF, you should be able to alter shots or make other defensive plays. Again, not a JK strong point.

Where Joey excels is ball handling and shooting. I love having him take the ball out of bounds or handle the rock at the high post because he doesn't panic. He is also a very good shooter and gives us a dimension a lot of teams don't have.

Joey has been a great addition to the Gophers. I would just like more inside dominance from someone that plays his position.
 

We were still 7th in rebounding in the Big Ten this year, so it's not like we were awful at it, whether King was in or was not. I think we'll especially need some scoring from him next season and he'll be a key player.
 

fryguy22 said:
How do I reconcile the bolded claim with the fact that Mo led the conference in FG %? If our guys don't play above the rim, and it's a huge advantage to finish above the rim, why did he have the best FG % of any player in the B1G?
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Mo still has a big body, he's got nice post moves, and he's got a soft touch. I am sure you saw a number of occasions, even recently in the NIT, where Mo got the ball deep in the post and should have had an "and 1", but instead went to the line for two shots. Those instances don't count against his FG%, but are still missed opportunities to score. Mo is at his best when he has both time and space to execute his post moves.
 



King will get his minutes because he showed he can contribute on offense but that's assuming he continues to hit shots. The reason people call him a backup is because more people would prefer to have a big burly man who plays in paint like Mbakwe.
 

BeaversMN said:
King will get his minutes because he showed he can contribute on offense but that's assuming he continues to hit shots. The reason people call him a backup is because more people would prefer to have a big burly man who plays in paint like Mbakwe.
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Which is funny considering Mbakwe played center last year.
 

scher215 said:
Which is funny considering Mbakwe played center last year.
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That still doesn't change anything, he's still the type of guy you would like to see playing PF in the B1G. Not that other guys can't get the job done.
 

Ya but,

Lots of truth throughout the thread but did you watch the NCAA Championship game? UCONN could not finish an inside hoop to save their lives. I thought I was watching Mo and EE. And yet, UCONN is the champion.

We have the players we have. We compensated really well all year with what we have. There are different ways to win basketball games. We don't have to have Duke, Syracuse, Kentucky athletes to win. (would be nice, no question) UCONN won without all the required parts. I believe we have a coach who can orchestrate the game to our desired outcome, as does UCONN.

Yes, because we don't have the athletes, sometimes the train goes off the tracks, as it did for UCONN and us through out the season here and there. But we always got it back on course and competed all season. May not have won them all but competed in nearly all with lots of personnel holes. Enjoy the ride. It's way more fun to win with lesser talent than the other team. At some point down the road we might have better talent and you can relax a bit, but it ain't the case now. Try and appreciate the amazing coaching you witnessed versus ripping all the guys who can't play. You can see that but you missed we won 25 games and there is no reason to believe Pitino won't find a way to duplicate or surpass that standard with any kind of luck next year.
 



BeaversMN said:
That still doesn't change anything, he's still the type of guy you would like to see playing PF in the B1G. Not that other guys can't get the job done.
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Who was the Badgers PF this year? For their final four team? Sam Dekker, right?

My point is basketball ha changed. What used to be a big 10 PF is now essentially the center position.

Does Joey need to get stronger/work on rebounding/defense? Absolutely! But to think you can't succeed without an athletic, physical beast, dunker like Mbakwe at the 4 is just wrong.
 

As long as the Gophers can keep the ball below the rim when they are on defense, they do fine. Joey is just one of the players down low who don't have the athleticism to live above the rim. It's our weakness and some teams are able to exploit that. Thankfully, Coach Pitino has done an admirable job in hiding that weakness by changing up defensive schemes.

In any pick-up league around town, Joey King would be the elite athlete on the floor. However, that's not true once he steps on to the court in the B1G.

I love Joey's fight and tenacity. He gets everything he can out of what he's been given. In fact, that was pretty much the M.O. of this entire team during the 2013-14 season. Perhaps someday Coach Pitino will be able to recruit the "uber" athlete, but at present we have a whole bunch of "lunch pail" guys who will out work those who have been given more natural athleticism.
 

Joey is simply very limited because of his lack of lateral quickness and explosion. He's also limited because he's a 'small' 6'7" in that he isn't very long at all nor does he have above average strength. So physically is overmatched against basically every B1G PF. He IS tough and savvy and a good shooter but he also has a veeerrrrryyyy slow release which means he has to be wide open to shoot so he's not a huge threat in the pick and pop situation either. I like what Joey brings but his physical limitations are there. To get better he really needs to add strength and to get that J off quicker. He has a nice post game when he gets a favorable matchup as well
 

Joey King got better as the season went along, no doubt about it. His decision-making markedly improved. However, he still isn't a good starter. He's suited to be offense from the bench.

King's problems are physical. He's a little small both in height and weight, he's a little slow laterally, he doesn't play above the rim. What does that mean? It means he has a hard time getting rebounds because he cannot jump higher than others for them, he cannot outreach people for them, he cannot hold his position because he isn't strong enough or is too light, and he cannot overpower people for them because he isn't strong enough. Moreover, his lateral quickness hinders his defense. He's below average on defense. Big players abuse him to no end, and quick players get past him. Big and quick players decimate him.

Ideally, as a starting PF in the Big Ten you need to avoid turnovers, or plays that directly lead to turnovers, and you should be average or better in two of the three following traits: Defend, rebound, and score. King's decision-making is now good enough, but his is only average or better at scoring. He is below average at rebounding and defending. That makes King a good bench player. He probably isn't a starter on a top four Big Ten team unless he is surrounded by a few NBA players.
 

oleboy41 said:
Joey is simply very limited because of his lack of lateral quickness and explosion. He's also limited because he's a 'small' 6'7" in that he isn't very long at all nor does he have above average strength. So physically is overmatched against basically every B1G PF. He IS tough and savvy and a good shooter but he also has a veeerrrrryyyy slow release which means he has to be wide open to shoot so he's not a huge threat in the pick and pop situation either. I like what Joey brings but his physical limitations are there. To get better he really needs to add strength and to get that J off quicker. He has a nice post game when he gets a favorable matchup as well
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I would never "write him off" because his heart and shot will keep him playing, but I think the above poster summarizes nicely why he doesn't meet a lot of posters' visions of a Big Ten power forward. Of his 8 double figure scoring games, 6 were against mid-major teams and one of his two in Big Ten play was while playing 47 minutes in a triple overtime game. As mentioned before, he averaged 2.7 rbs. in 22.4 minutes a game. Oto averaged 2.8 in four less minutes per game and very few have ever thought of Oto as a prototypical Big Ten 4.

I think Joey can have a good career at Minnesota and the team was fortunate to have him this year, but it would be nice to have a team where he can play a combo forward off the bench.
 

60's Guy said:
Lots of truth throughout the thread but did you watch the NCAA Championship game? UCONN could not finish an inside hoop to save their lives. I thought I was watching Mo and EE. And yet, UCONN is the champion.

We have the players we have. We compensated really well all year with what we have. There are different ways to win basketball games. We don't have to have Duke, Syracuse, Kentucky athletes to win. (would be nice, no question) UCONN won without all the required parts. I believe we have a coach who can orchestrate the game to our desired outcome, as does UCONN.

Yes, because we don't have the athletes, sometimes the train goes off the tracks, as it did for UCONN and us through out the season here and there. But we always got it back on course and competed all season. May not have won them all but competed in nearly all with lots of personnel holes. Enjoy the ride. It's way more fun to win with lesser talent than the other team. At some point down the road we might have better talent and you can relax a bit, but it ain't the case now. Try and appreciate the amazing coaching you witnessed versus ripping all the guys who can't play. You can see that but you missed we won 25 games and there is no reason to believe Pitino won't find a way to duplicate or surpass that standard with any kind of luck next year.
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+1
 

scher215 said:
Who was the Badgers PF this year? For their final four team? Sam Dekker, right?

My point is basketball ha changed. What used to be a big 10 PF is now essentially the center position.

Does Joey need to get stronger/work on rebounding/defense? Absolutely! But to think you can't succeed without an athletic, physical beast, dunker like Mbakwe at the 4 is just wrong.
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Hey if you want to turn Joey King into Sam Dekker you can be my guest. Good luck with that.
 

afurry91 said:
Hey if you want to turn Joey King into Sam Dekker you can be my guest. Good luck with that.
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Joey is a better shooter. If you judged him solely based upon his trip to the barn this year when he scored 20 you might think he did that regularly but he didn't manage 20 again and ended the season below 33% from 3 and below 70% from the free throw line.
 

AO54 said:
Joey is a better shooter. If you judged him solely based upon his trip to the barn this year when he scored 20 you might think he did that regularly but he didn't manage 20 again and ended the season below 33% from 3 and below 70% from the free throw line.
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yea but Joey also lacks the ability to get his own shot off and even when a shot is created for him he has to be wide open because he has one of the slowest releases I've seen in a while. So yea Joey's a nice shooter but there's also the aspect that the shots he takes are high percentage wide open shots because those are the ONLY shots he CAN take.
 

Can we save this thread for 2 years from now after Joey is graduating? Remember he was a sophomore! Who was playing his first year in the Big Ten. He held his own considering. What did everyone expect/want from him? In order to please most of the posters here he would need to be good enough to be All-Big Ten as a sophomore!

He wasn't expected to be the star and he showed growth throughout the season. Now if there is no weight room work during the summer then there could easily be a problem going forward. However, he is a summer in the weight room away from being a good slightly undersized PF(not NBA ability but above average in the Big Ten, which is the top conference in college).

Edit: http://fromthebarn.org/2013/12/26/i...a-and-it-is-time-to-start-four-gopher-guards/ He wouldn't be undersized at all in the Big ten height wise. check out the tallest forward stats.
 

Tim1406 said:
Can we save this thread for 2 years from now after Joey is graduating? Remember he was a sophomore! Who was playing his first year in the Big Ten. He held his own considering. What did everyone expect/want from him? In order to please most of the posters here he would need to be good enough to be All-Big Ten as a sophomore!

He wasn't expected to be the star and he showed growth throughout the season. Now if there is no weight room work during the summer then there could easily be a problem going forward. However, he is a summer in the weight room away from being a good slightly undersized PF(not NBA ability but above average in the Big Ten, which is the top conference in college).

Edit: http://fromthebarn.org/2013/12/26/i...a-and-it-is-time-to-start-four-gopher-guards/ He wouldn't be undersized at all in the Big ten height wise. check out the tallest forward stats.
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Why does it have to be all or nothing? The absolute truth is that King has below average physical abilities for a B1G 4. That will never change. He played minutes for us so obviously was a contributer to our success and that's a good thing. With his game he is best suited for a backup role in an ideal situation, however our situation was not ideal so he played more minutes than expected. Its ok for him to be both a contributer and a guy best suited for 10-15 mns per night. The question is does he have room to grow and I'd say yes he does but not all that much. He can get stronger and get his J off quicker.
Sometimes we're not able to view players objectively in terms of looking at their abilities compared to their opponents as well as comparing their performance to their talent level. For instance Mav was a limited player who probably got the most out of his ability. If he was a starter he'd be a below average B1G player. That wouldn't be his fault but it would have been true. If Mav played in a smaller conference he may have been a bigger contributer and developed into a better player. Same with King. In all reality he's a mid major talent who's playing B1G minutes. You can acknowledge that and recognize the limitations that come with that while ALSO appreciating his positive impact on the team.
 


oleboy41 said:
yea but Joey also lacks the ability to get his own shot off and even when a shot is created for him he has to be wide open because he has one of the slowest releases I've seen in a while. So yea Joey's a nice shooter but there's also the aspect that the shots he takes are high percentage wide open shots because those are the ONLY shots he CAN take.
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Exactly how many PF's can create their own perimeter shot in the Big10?
 

Joey king would step in as the tallest Big ten PF next year, maybe he can't jump like Dawson but if he added 10lbs he would play center for MSU next year(size wise no different than Costello) . He doesn't need to jump out of the gym just play better positioning on D next year. Get out of here with this not physically up to the the BIG Ten stuff. He could play center, size wise, for a top 20 school! Maybe he isn't as fast as Vonleh or dawson but he is just as big and strong(well maybe not as strong as dawson).

Edit: Corrected a few mistakes and over assessments.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
Exactly how many PF's can create their own perimeter shot in the Big10?
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I was responding to a comparison between Joey and Dekker. And Dekker is the same size as Joey as is Nigel Hayes and both of them can create their own shot.
 

oleboy41 said:
I was responding to a comparison between Joey and Dekker. And Dekker is the same size as Joey as is Nigel Hayes and both of them can create their own shot.
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I never said Joey was as good as Dekker. Dekker is, however, much less strong/athletic than guys like Julius Randle and Trevor Mbakwe and is much more perimeter oriented. He started at the 4 for a final four team.

I am pretty sure Joey has used post moves multiple times and scored. It's not like wide open 3's are his only points. He has shown (against Wisconsin no less) he can post up and score on the block.

And If you think Joey is only 6-7, I've got bad news about Josh Martin for you- Martin has said Joey was taller than him when he visited. King measures 6-9.

PS, as another poster mentioned, he was a sophomore in his first year in the Big 10 this year.
 

oleboy41 said:
yea but Joey also lacks the ability to get his own shot off and even when a shot is created for him he has to be wide open because he has one of the slowest releases I've seen in a while. So yea Joey's a nice shooter but there's also the aspect that the shots he takes are high percentage wide open shots because those are the ONLY shots he CAN take.
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Congratulations you are the winner of GH 'Moron of the Day' award.
 

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